The end of Smile- Some big questions, any takers??

[Andrew G. Doe]

Noname asked;
"A question that needs to be addressed....
did Spector's mind gangsters start the fire across the street to mess with Brian's fragile psyche?"

That's a good question. The reason we, the public, DON"T have the answer is that Brian wasn't/isn't sharing some personal experiences with us.

Based on Brian's "autobiography" though...one can, with a little imagination (remember, Einstein said "imagination is more important than knowledge") find out why Brian feared the mind gangsters and felt paranoid and why the fires made him uptight.

In the movie SECONDS there are numerous scenes that parallel Brian's LSD trip experiences. And since Brian was not sharing the contents of those trips--nobody picked up on what Brian was relating to in SECONDS (and Brian wasn't offering the info either), AND...Brian thought that somehow someone must be tapping into his mind for the secret info. And if you are familiar with some of the thinking typically associated with LSD experiences things like ESP and mind reading and vibes seem very possible.

As far as the fires across the street making Brian paranoid.....Brian was working on a new mystical album form (SMiLE). This was a project who's mystical power & potential was of uncertain quantity & quality. The one track which most embodied the idea of taking the negative trip experience to the listener was "Fire." So Brian got a little worried about what he was unleashing on the world and his growing paranoia had to do with these factors(which rarely enter into any SMiLE discussion).

As far as Phil Spector goes...Brian was always in competition with Phil (though Spector wasn't in competition with Wilson). SMiLE was to be Brian's advanced artistic leap which put him above & beyond Spector. Remember Brian was keeping lots of info about what he was up to secret. This secret info was what was putting Brian artistically beyond Spector. How could Spector compete? Well, when Brian saw SECONDS & saw his secrets on the big screen & the main character's name is "Wilson" and stuff. Brian couldn't explain how anybody got his secret info. Perhaps it was mind gangsters & the one person who might want to do this (to compete musically) was his assumed rival, Phil Spector. Maybe Spectorr was behind it.

Two points:

one - it's entirely possible I may be misremembering, but didn't someone (Cam Mott ?) check out the incidence of LA fires late November/early December 1966 and discover that it wasn't higher than usual at all, nor was there any fire in the vicinity of Gold Star ? Corrections welcomed.

two - Seconds was released October 5, 1966, thus had to have been filmed in spring/early summer 1966 at latest, and of course written before that... or in other words, the movie was concieved before Brian was done with Pet Sounds, much less thinking about Smile. Unless he was considering that album in late 1965, of course.

[Aegir]

I think Bill was saying that Seconds is what made Brian think that Spector had "mind gangsters", not that it specificially had anything to do with Smile.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Dennis pulled his songs because he fell out with Carl over the track sequence... which could also explain why he was, in essence, absent from CATP-ST as well. Aside from the two tracks culled from his solo project, anyone hear him at all ?

 

A while back, while discussing the change in Brian's voice, I mentioned that there is a line in He Came Down (right after the "Yes I Believe It" section, during the break) that sounds very much like 15 BO era- Brian (the low part that goes "EEEE-eee" ) , and was asking if Brian's voice had started to change around that time. Of course, there are 1974 recording where Brian still has a smooth voice, although it was obviously changing. Now, my question is... was this Brian just having a gruff day, or was it in fact Dennis singing that lower part?

[Ian]

Well...According to the Apr 18 1972 AFM Brian was at the He Come Down (vocals?) session, whereas Dennis's name is not listed. This was not the only session for the song, however.

[c-man]

Well...According to the Apr 18 1972 AFM Brian was at the He Come Down (vocals?) session, whereas Dennis's name is not listed. This was not the only session for the song, however.

Dennis was at Sunset Sound recording horns for "Make It Good" while the "He Come Down" basic track session (and that for "Here She Comes") was going on back at Brian's place.   But like you said, there were other sessions, and the vocals could've been added after that. 

I really like Blondie's voice on "He Come Down"...great Gospel feel.

Hey, isn't this supposed to be a SMiLE-related thread?   

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Well...According to the Apr 18 1972 AFM Brian was at the He Come Down (vocals?) session, whereas Dennis's name is not listed. This was not the only session for the song, however.

A-HA...so that WAS Brian then.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well...According to the Apr 18 1972 AFM Brian was at the He Come Down (vocals?) session, whereas Dennis's name is not listed. This was not the only session for the song, however.

AFM sheets have one huge, inherent drawback - the M stands for "musicians" !  While in the early days it's pretty safe to assume that the vocals were cut at the same session(s) as the track, by 1965 at the latest, this was evidently not so. Vocal sessions were the province of AFTRA, the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. We're looking into that, but don't hold your breath.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well...According to the Apr 18 1972 AFM Brian was at the He Come Down (vocals?) session, whereas Dennis's name is not listed. This was not the only session for the song, however.

Dennis was at Sunset Sound recording horns for "Make It Good" while the "He Come Down" basic track session (and that for "Here She Comes") was going on back at Brian's place.   But like you said, there were other sessions, and the vocals could've been added after that. 

I really like Blondie's voice on "He Come Down"...great Gospel feel.

Hey, isn't this supposed to be a SMiLE-related thread?   

OK - CATP-ST was the first BB album since 1967 that didn't (apparently) feature a Smile relic somewhere.

Sorted. 

[Cam Mott]

I firmly believe that Brian did whatever he did for his own reasons and not under and irregardless of the influence of anyone else.

I think we might get Brian's retreat from his grip on the reins early, I think Brian was still firmly in control in his usual way at least through Friends even if he did let the others' material have more play. It seems to me the people who were actually at the sessions, seeing the group at work, saw Brian as firmly still in control.

If you give credence to Marilyn and Brian's claim that SMiLE was already out when they bought the home in Bellagio than SMiLE was out before the end of March [according to property records].

When the Boys knew is another question. To me most of the Boys comments in Europe that Spring seem to me to show they knew that something was a hang up with the single and album but they still feel there will be a single and an album; Bruce does not seem as clear on that to me.

I tried to get data on fire frequency from LAFD but it was only available for 1967 and 1968, as I remember, at the time so I couldn't make a comparison.
 

[MBE]

I firmly believe that Brian did whatever he did for his own reasons and not under and irregardless of the influence of anyone else.

I think we might get Brian's retreat from his grip on the reins early, I think Brian was still firmly in control in his usual way at least through Friends even if he did let the others' material have more play. It seems to me the people who were actually at the sessions, seeing the group at work, saw Brian as firmly still in control.

If you give credence to Marilyn and Brian's claim that SMiLE was already out when they bought the home in Bellagio than SMiLE was out before the end of March [according to property records].

When the Boys knew is another question. To me most of the Boys comments in Europe that Spring seem to me to show they knew that something was a hang up with the single and album but they still feel there will be a single and an album; Bruce does not seem as clear on that to me.

I tried to get data on fire frequency from LAFD but it was only available for 1967 and 1968, as I remember, at the time so I couldn't make a comparison.
 

I agree Cam people place Brian's retreat as too early. It was a gradual process that began (on stage) as early as 1963, but even something as late as Sunflower had strong input from Brian. I remember Warner's exec Richard Berson talking about that when the Add Some Music LP was rejected, it was Brian they talked to about redoing the album. So it seems to me that Brian had the final ok until Surf's Up went out. Remember Desper has often said that when Brian wanted to work everything else stopped. In fact until Landy came back into the picutre and really started getting pushy around 1988,. I feel Brian remained an important part of the Beach Boys.

[Bill Tobelman]

The C-man said;

"I tried to get data on fire frequency from LAFD but it was only available for 1967 and 1968, as I remember, at the time so I couldn't make a comparison."

Just thought I'd throw a thought into the mix here Cam even though it is by no means definitive proof of anything. The summer of 1966 was thermally remarkable for being an unusually hot summer. There was even a garage rock album from that time titled "Long Hot Summer."

[Bicyclerider]

Could the release of Fire on bootlegs in the late 80's be responsible for global warming - now accelerating with the release of BWPS?

[Bill Tobelman]

There was a fire tragedy that took place at the beginning of November, 1966. So fires were probably on some folks' minds at the time.

http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/loop-fire-brief.htm

[Alex]

Its pretty mych general consensus that the Love to Say Da Da sessions were the last ones for SMiLE, but do we really know if Brian consciously said "no more SMiLE"? There were still the June Cool Cool Water and Heroes and Villains sessions. I'd like to challenge the consensus and say that the SMiLE era didn't end until June of 1967 after Heroes and Villains was finally released. Cool Cool Water was a rewrite of Da Da and the first session for it was sometime during the next month after Da Da was recorded. The Heroes and Villains sessions in June were pretty much a continuation of the work Brian was doing on it through that previous winter and spring. Most of the backing track and some of the vocals for H&V were recorded during the SMiLE sessions. If anything, June of '67 was kind of the bridge between SMiLE and Smiley Smile.

[Bicyclerider]

May 6th Derek Taylor wrote in the press that Smile had been scrapped.  I'm sure he wouldn't have said that if it didn't come from Brian.  Doesn't mean Brian didn't change his mind, but I feel Smile as a Wilson/Parks concept album ended in May, and sessions became "the next Beach Boys album."  Which turned out to be Smiley.  Heroes was the single that continued to be worked on, new versions of Veggies, Wind Chimes were worked on, Love reworte He Gives Speeches, and Smile was history.  Cool Cool Water was a rewrite of Dada probably like She's Goin Bald was a rewrite of Speeches - an attempt to get something commercial/releasable/finishable for the next album out of the Dada sessions.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Cam!

[Cam Mott]

Hhmmm?

[the captain]

... like She's Goin Bald was a rewrite of Speeches - an attempt to get something commercial/releasable/finishable

And nothing says "commercial" quite like Speeches/Goin Bald.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Hhmmm?

You're alive?  It seems like it's been a while.

[Alex]

May 6th Derek Taylor wrote in the press that Smile had been scrapped.  I'm sure he wouldn't have said that if it didn't come from Brian.  Doesn't mean Brian didn't change his mind, but I feel Smile as a Wilson/Parks concept album ended in May, and sessions became "the next Beach Boys album."  Which turned out to be Smiley.  Heroes was the single that continued to be worked on, new versions of Veggies, Wind Chimes were worked on, Love reworte He Gives Speeches, and Smile was history.  Cool Cool Water was a rewrite of Dada probably like She's Goin Bald was a rewrite of Speeches - an attempt to get something commercial/releasable/finishable for the next album out of the Dada sessions.

But wasn't the May 6th announcement authorized by Mike Love and not Brian? Maybe I've been reading too much Dom Priore.

[MBE]

May 6th Derek Taylor wrote in the press that Smile had been scrapped.  I'm sure he wouldn't have said that if it didn't come from Brian.  Doesn't mean Brian didn't change his mind, but I feel Smile as a Wilson/Parks concept album ended in May, and sessions became "the next Beach Boys album."  Which turned out to be Smiley.  Heroes was the single that continued to be worked on, new versions of Veggies, Wind Chimes were worked on, Love reworte He Gives Speeches, and Smile was history.  Cool Cool Water was a rewrite of Dada probably like She's Goin Bald was a rewrite of Speeches - an attempt to get something commercial/releasable/finishable for the next album out of the Dada sessions.

But wasn't the May 6th announcement authorized by Mike Love and not Brian? Maybe I've been reading too much Dom Priore.

Mike didn't have any say about that at all. We don't know where the info came from but probably Brian. My understanding is that Mike assumed the LP was still coming out during the UK tour.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

But wasn't the May 6th announcement authorized by Mike Love and not Brian? Maybe I've been reading too much Dom Priore.

Haha, Dom does seem to have a Mike Vendetta, but his cultural analysis of the 60s is great, I was just reading his Smile book and despite the outright false information, I like how he takes the zoom back from Brian a little and talks about the whole scene.

[KokoMoses]

1) I don't think it was ever clearly discussed between the band and management. Brian always took care of finishing albums and delivering them to Capitol, while the band went on tour. Why fix it when it ain't broken?

2) I don't think the issues were openly debated. The whole situation progressed to the Smiley Smile sessions, at least it was an album ready for release, and it was time to move on to the next tour and album.   

3) I don't think the producer credit was that important to Brian. Brian was still calling the shots in 1967, but the credit change suited both parts just fine. The rest of the band would be seen less by the press as Brian's puppets and Brian would be released from some of the pressure.   

4) If Brian had told them that he wasn't going to record or release anything else, maybe. As long as the ball was rolling and Brian was busy producing the new Smiley Smile tracks, there was the perspective of a new Beach Boys album, and everything would work out just fine in the end, like it always did. Maybe the band saw SS as a stopgap album, a "Party" offer, and the next one would mean back to business. Then SS bombed, Wild Honey bombed, and then there was trouble. 

5) The importance of the Monterey festival and movie is very much 20/20 hindsight. Anyway, how many bands did make the festival and went to a comercial dive anyway? I think the band was at a weird place at that moment and it was easier to just forget about it.   

6) I think 'Can't Wait too Long' as we know it was painstakingly and digitally put together by Mark Linnet in the late 80s. In 1968 it was just a bunch of related snippets that Brian had left unfinished. A hard task for anyone to take with the technology of the time. Carl seemed to be the one who grabbed Brian's unfinished works to make them releasable, he would be the guy to answer for that decision.

Right On The Money!!!!

[Bicyclerider]

... like She's Goin Bald was a rewrite of Speeches - an attempt to get something commercial/releasable/finishable

And nothing says "commercial" quite like Speeches/Goin Bald.

Well, I did say "an attempt" to get something commercial - obviously Smiley failed big time to do that in every way.  But I bet Mike thought Goin' Bald was way more commercial than Speeches - a "comedy" number in keeping with Vegetables perhaps?

[KokoMoses]

Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and serve my head up for assasination and say....... I might be the only one who's happy we have Smiley Smile, Friends, Wild Honey, 20/20, Sunflower, Surf's Up, CATP, Holland, Love You, instead of Smile.... I beyond adore these albums and fear we'd never have gotten them in a million years if Smile has been released as planned.... I love The Beach Boys as a group and feel that Smile was too influenced by interloping factors; drugs, Van Dyke Parks (who I love! but just not as a lyricist for the Beach Boys) near total reliance on session musicians, ect... Although the Smile tracks are wonderful, they just don't touch the soul like even a lot of later 'bad" Beach Boys stuff does. And Smile as a whole is missing alot of the elements that make me love The Beach Boys.