The end of Smile- Some big questions, any takers??

[mikeyj]

One last thing about Mike. I don't think on the whole he minded Smile musically, and he has praised Heroes.

Well isn't there that tape of Mike making a mockery of H&V?

[MBE]

Go back a few pages and we established that Brian probably wrote that.

[mikeyj]

.

[mikeyj]

Go back a few pages and we established that Brian probably wrote that.

Thanks MBE.

My favorite source for that is Brian, who told Peter Reum that he wrote it.

When did Brian tell that to Peter Reum?

[mikeyj]

and the year he claims he would have needed to do that.

I seriously doubt Brian would've needed another year to finish SMiLE. I mean as far as I know the only place he has ever said that is on the Beautiful Dreamer documentary and so much of what Brian's says these days is just crap in my opinion. Not having a go at Brian, but I just don't think he really cares about most interviews and he'll just give any answer so he can get it over and done with.

[mikeyj]

What I'm saying is that when someone has mental problems of the sort Brian had at the time, any number of things (real or perceived) can trigger a reaction. And as a pure hypothetical, I noted that if Brian were to perceive Mike's attitude toward smile as negative, he could react negatively, either with deeper depression or increased drug use or whatever. I don't mean any of that happened, or that Mike himself actually DID anything. I'm just saying that mental illness is a motherfodaer.

I agree with everything you say here Luther. Mental illness is a motherfodaer and one can only imagine how hard it must've been for Brian with everything else going on (lawsuit with Capital, worrying about writing, recording, arranging, producing new material, supposed resistance from the group etc...) and then mix all of that with drugs and boy it must've been hard. No wonder Brian was growing paranoid. As you have said Luther, I'm sure if Mike or whoever made a comment about SMiLE (even if it was just suggesting he change a thing or two) then Brian could see that as a negative thing.

[MBE]

Brian's interviews through about 1970 are very lucid. 1971-81 it depends on when you got him but mainly his memory still seems intact. After that it's a crapshoot, but he can remember things sometimes quite well. Mainly though he has gotten worse over the years as far as interviewing.

[brianc]

**My favorite source for that is Brian, who told Peter Reum that he wrote it.**

Seems like an over-simplification to me, but I won't argue it, because it will only make me look like a Mike basher and a Brianista, whatever that means. I'll only say that if Brian DID write it, as in write it out, it sounds to me like it was a quick way of covering up the wound he felt in its failure. More than one person involved with Brian has said that he was hugely disappointed in the showing of "H&V" on the charts. That he chose Mike Love to so obnoxiously mock "H&V" is interesting.

I'll leave it at that.

[brianc]

**I don't think Mike had very much to do with SMiLE not being finished, regardless of what Brian says in the documentary.**

Why oh why do we take some things Brian says about his own life, music and experiences as utter gospel, and others, we dismiss with whimsy?

[brianc]

**This doesn't make sense - sure, Mike had some axes to grind with Murry (and Brian) over songwriting and he did write Good Vibrations only to be replaced for the album by Van Dyke. **

Uh, "California Girls," right?

And the notion that Mike "did write Good Vibrations"... that's vastly overstated. It seems the song's lyrics were originally by Tony Asher. Somewhere along the way, there was an edit made, and the lyrics became what they are today. Mike has not claimed to have ANY part in that... only taking an already recorded bassline and add the lyrics "I'm picking up good vibrations, she's giving me excitations."

[brianc]

**I think Mike could have got over feeling permanently ditched for other lyricists, but if Brian's going to take things into his own hands at the expense of every other member of the group, then he had better deliver.**

Actually, he DID deliver the large bulk of the project when they got back from the road in November-December, 1966. There was a cover, there were backing tracks completed, there was a booklet. There were lyrics and songs to record, and an album on schedule. Now, did the Beach Boys mess it up by arguing or conducting bad vocal sessions? Or did Brian second guess himself that Christmas? What happened really? No one knows for sure. Probably a combination of things brought on by doubt, arguing and drugs. But the cancelling of sessions didn't start happening until after the band got back and started working with Brian on the vocals.

It's a fact.

[brianc]

**I mean, I have the rest of my life to perfect the album I'm working on, with zero external pressures.  Brian could have pulled an Eden Abez and wandered around writing songs and sleeping under the W in the Hollywood Sign.**

Ahbez lived under the second "L," thank you very much.

[Dancing Bear]

**This doesn't make sense - sure, Mike had some axes to grind with Murry (and Brian) over songwriting and he did write Good Vibrations only to be replaced for the album by Van Dyke. **

Uh, "California Girls," right?

And the notion that Mike "did write Good Vibrations"... that's vastly overstated. It seems the song's lyrics were originally by Tony Asher. Somewhere along the way, there was an edit made, and the lyrics became what they are today. Mike has not claimed to have ANY part in that... only taking an already recorded bassline and add the lyrics "I'm picking up good vibrations, she's giving me excitations."

LYRICS:

Tony Asher wrote (what in my opinion were work-in-progress) lyrics to Good Vibartions, based on Brian's concept. You can listen to them in the SS/WH twofer, track 25.

Someone, probably Brian, wrote the "Good, Good, Good, Good Vibrations Yeah" chorus. Again, track 25 of the twofer.

Mike rewrote the whole thing (some words/concepts of the Wilson/Asher's version were kept, I think) except for the chorus. He wrote a counterpoint to it, the "I'm picking up..." line.

MUSIC:

It's Brian's baby all the way, though Mike created a vocal line to be sung over the bass line. If it's a suggestion, rearrangement or co-write, YMMV.

[brianc]

**Mike rewrote the whole thing (some words/concepts of the Wilson/Asher's version were kept, I think) except for the chorus. He wrote a counterpoint to it, the "I'm picking up..." line.
**

Evidence for this entire re-write? As far as I know, Mike said that Brian had the whole thing, but it was too weird, so he wrote a boy-girl line before the chorus. Where has Mike ever said that he re-wrote the entire song? What book, film, interview, liner note or article does he say that in?

[Dancing Bear]

**I don't think Mike had very much to do with SMiLE not being finished, regardless of what Brian says in the documentary.**

Why oh why do we take some things Brian says about his own life, music and experiences as utter gospel, and others, we dismiss with whimsy?

The problem is, after some years, you see Brian contraditing himself so many times that it's natural to take everything he says with a pinch of salt. But it's inevitable to choose the quotes that suit the theory you follow... We're human after all.

[Dancing Bear]

**Mike rewrote the whole thing (some words/concepts of the Wilson/Asher's version were kept, I think) except for the chorus. He wrote a counterpoint to it, the "I'm picking up..." line.
**

Evidence for this entire re-write? As far as I know, Mike said that Brian had the whole thing, but it was too weird, so he wrote a boy-girl line before the chorus. Where has Mike ever said that he re-wrote the entire song? What book, film, interview, liner note or article does he say that in?

Oh my.

[brianc]

**The problem is, after some years, you see Brian contraditing himself so many times that it's natural to take everything he says with a pinch of salt. But it's inevitable to choose the quotes that suit the theory you follow... We're human after all.**

Good point. But I think consistent ones, like Jules Siegal saying the "Surf's Up" vocal session went bad, then Brian claiming in 1968 that the band actually broke up over it's non-release, then the common mantra that both Brian and Mike and Van Dyke all cop to... that the lyrics created internal strife. I think at some point, we have to concede that "Surf's Up" and "Cabinessence" spawned serious tension. The lyrics were just NOT what the band expected when they got back. Whatever that caused Brian to do (reconsider, abdandon, etc.), it had an impact, and it was so tense that no one has been able to let go of those feelings all these years later.

[Cam Mott]

I believe Brian [or Tony] had the "good, good, good vibrations" line, Mike came up with the "excitations" bit, almost all Tony's [or Brian's?] lyrics got scrapped and Mike wrote the rest of the single's lyrics at the vocal session apparently.

[c-man]

I believe Brian [or Tony] had the "good, good, good vibrations" line, Mike came up with the "excitations" bit, almost all Tony's [or Brian's?] lyrics got scrapped and Mike wrote the rest of the single's lyrics at the vocal session apparently.

Mike says he wrote "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" at one of the early tracking sessions, then stayed away from the sessions until they were ready to do the vocals.  On his way to the final vocal session (or one of the final vocal sessions) he wrote the lyrics to the verses and dictated them to his wife Susanne in the car.

[Mark H.]

I believe Brian [or Tony] had the "good, good, good vibrations" line, Mike came up with the "excitations" bit, almost all Tony's [or Brian's?] lyrics got scrapped and Mike wrote the rest of the single's lyrics at the vocal session apparently.

Mike says he wrote "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" at one of the early tracking sessions, then stayed away from the sessions until they were ready to do the vocals.  On his way to the final vocal session (or one of the final vocal sessions) he wrote the lyrics to the verses and dictated them to his wife Susanne in the car.

That's what I've always heard as well.

[brianc]

**Mike says he wrote "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" at one of the early tracking sessions, then stayed away from the sessions until they were ready to do the vocals.  On his way to the final vocal session (or one of the final vocal sessions) he wrote the lyrics to the verses and dictated them to his wife Susanne in the car.**

I'm not doubting it. I just wonder where that was said. The lyrics ARE great, and I'd not deny Mike his kudos for writing so many good lyrics in the '60s. I doubt he could ever be as post-modern as Van Dyke, but Mike's lyrics were always in the moment at that time, and they hold up.

[Steve Mayo]

**Mike says he wrote "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" at one of the early tracking sessions, then stayed away from the sessions until they were ready to do the vocals.  On his way to the final vocal session (or one of the final vocal sessions) he wrote the lyrics to the verses and dictated them to his wife Susanne in the car.**

I'm not doubting it. I just wonder where that was said.....

goodness...just about any mike love interview the past 30 years or so...

[brianc]

Cool, then pointing one out shouldn't be too difficult.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

**I mean, I have the rest of my life to perfect the album I'm working on, with zero external pressures.  Brian could have pulled an Eden Abez and wandered around writing songs and sleeping under the W in the Hollywood Sign.**

Ahbez lived under the second "L," thank you very much.

Right, leaving no room for Brian, who presumably wouldn't want to sleep with that close to Eden.  I gave them a letter gap.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Cool, then pointing one out shouldn't be too difficult.

I find Google is a handy tool.  If you find people are not quick to find sources, it's because this topic has been talked to death over the years and nobody feels like wading through 5 years of threads to find references to articles or interviews.

No one knows for sure...It's a fact.

By editing out everything in between those phrases, I've created the title for the next Smile documentary.

Seriously though, saying Brian delivered most of the album isn't really true, because there never was a complete album.  We can't think of Smile as a potentially completable album, because it wasn't.  Maybe Brian would have changed his mind hundreds of times and scrapped everything thing even if the Boys had been out on tour for another decade.  I don't think we can use what must have been a common occurrence, the boys returning home to be surprised by what Brian had been doing, as a catalyst for something out of the ordinary.  Something that might have happened anyway.

No one knows for sure!  It's a fact!

Besides, I'm still not sure why I'm still posting on this thread.  I thought I got this all out of my system four years ago.