The end of Smile- Some big questions, any takers??

[Ian]

What exactly happened in Apr, May and June 1967? There are some key questions that remain. 1) When was the fate of Smile discussed? If you look at the tour schedule, you see that the group was on tour from April 13 until May 20 1967.  So at the Vegetables sessions the handwriting was on the wall-Smile was not going to be finished and couldn't be till June. Do you think there were heavy conversations with Brian about this at the sessions in April? Or was this just left unspoken?  2) When the group returned from Europe at the end of May-do you think that they had already decided to take more control of their career or was this all Brian's decisions?  3) Do you think there was an emotional meeting where the decision was made to say Produced by the Beach Boys on Smiley Smile or did Brian suggest it without a heavy discussion?  4) Did the Beach Boys put up any fight when Brian said he didn't want to use the Smile recordings and instead wanted to make mostly new tracks for Smiley Smile?-it cost them a lot of money  5) Do you think that there were arguments about not playing Monterey or did everyone passively accept this?- in retrospective interviews they always blame Brian  6) Considering the desire in the late 60s for any Brian Wilson compositions they could lay their hands on- did the group just passively allow Can't Wait Too Long-clearly brilliant-to sit in the vault? Its very odd that they didn't grab it for 20/20-they didn't seem to care about Brian's wishes when it came to other songs he preferred not be released

[Dancing Bear]

1) I don't think it was ever clearly discussed between the band and management. Brian always took care of finishing albums and delivering them to Capitol, while the band went on tour. Why fix it when it ain't broken?

2) I don't think the issues were openly debated. The whole situation progressed to the Smiley Smile sessions, at least it was an album ready for release, and it was time to move on to the next tour and album.   

3) I don't think the producer credit was that important to Brian. Brian was still calling the shots in 1967, but the credit change suited both parts just fine. The rest of the band would be seen less by the press as Brian's puppets and Brian would be released from some of the pressure.   

4) If Brian had told them that he wasn't going to record or release anything else, maybe. As long as the ball was rolling and Brian was busy producing the new Smiley Smile tracks, there was the perspective of a new Beach Boys album, and everything would work out just fine in the end, like it always did. Maybe the band saw SS as a stopgap album, a "Party" offer, and the next one would mean back to business. Then SS bombed, Wild Honey bombed, and then there was trouble. 

5) The importance of the Monterey festival and movie is very much 20/20 hindsight. Anyway, how many bands did make the festival and went to a comercial dive anyway? I think the band was at a weird place at that moment and it was easier to just forget about it.   

6) I think 'Can't Wait too Long' as we know it was painstakingly and digitally put together by Mark Linnet in the late 80s. In 1968 it was just a bunch of related snippets that Brian had left unfinished. A hard task for anyone to take with the technology of the time. Carl seemed to be the one who grabbed Brian's unfinished works to make them releasable, he would be the guy to answer for that decision.

[Bicyclerider]

1) Sometime before May 6 - probably at least a week before, given publishing deadlines - someone told Derek Taylor that Smile had been scrapped.  Since the Boys were on tour, that means it must have been Brian or Murray, and I don't think Murray would have stepped in to declare something like that without Brian being behind it.  I agree with Dancing Bear - the Boys expected Brian to continue working on it while they were on tour, and when they returned if Brian needed some additional vocals from them, they would do it - or he would finish the vocals himself while they were away.  There wasn't that much needed in the way of vocals, really, depending on what Brian decided to do with the songs.  Lead vocals for Worms, Child, Cabinessence, maybe I'm in Great Shape (although there was already a group vocal session).  If Brian was following the pattern for Pet Sounds, he would end up doing most of the leads himself.

2-3) Despite some theories that have bandied about, there's no evidence of a group meeting or discussion to abort Smile - as far as the group was concerned, Smile was the "next album" and the Smile sessions simply progressed into the home studio sessions for the next album.  I'm sure Brian decided to change the production credit and that change was precipitated by the Monkees debacle, the fact the BB were now the "studio musicians" with input into arrangements, and his desire to share the credit AND the blame for what was put out under the Beach Boys name.

4) I believe there was concern on the part of the BB that the tracks Brian had been working so arduously on were now being abandoned, but there's been no report of any formal meeting to discuss those tracks.  However Capitol must have had a formal meeting to discuss the same issue as that's what prompted the memo concerning a future release of a ten track Smile - they wanted to recapture some of their production cost monies from the Smile sessions.  The Beach  Boys were more concerned with losing some incredible songs (Surf's Up, Cabinessence, Child - at least Carl must have been since he was at most of the sessions.  Mike was probably glad those were being jettisoned).

5) Brian was responsible for the artistic direction of the group and so I don't think there were any arguments over not appearing in Monterey, although Mike seemed somewhat bitter about it in his August 67 interview, so maybe he did have some words with Brian over the decision.  But if the "new music" wasn't ready, which it wasn't, then I don't think Carl or Dennis would have wanted to go to Monterey with their old act and be unfavorably compared to the hippest SF and LA groups of the time. 

[Ian]

While I am not saying I disagree with you, it's clear from many sources that Brian's relations with the band were really never the same again.  By 1968 he was sometimes not showing up for sessions and by 1970-71 he was expressing a certain amount of disinterest in all things Beach Boys.   I question whether-just because we don't know all the dirty laundry- there weren't arguments, etc.. There is a hint of it in a 1968 interview where Brian said that the group just about broke up after Smile.

[Bicyclerider]

After SMile collapsed, Brian's relations with everyone were never the same - even his relationship with himself.  His friends from Smile were dismissed, he no longer used session musicians or hung out with Hal Blaine, etc.  It seems there was a purge of "outsiders" and relations with family, although strained, were the only ones Brian continued to have - with a few important exceptions (Danny Hutton for example).  But Brian continued to work with and be extremely productive with the Beach Boys in 1967 and 1968 - four albums were basically recorded in two years, Smiley, Wild Honey, Friends, and 20/20 - and only with 20/20 was Brian more absent than present.  Carl was finishing more of the production of the songs, but Brian was clearly very involved.

That Brian quote about almost breaking up over not releasing Surf's Up has never really been explained.  Nobody else has ever recounted a disagreement over releasing or not releasing Surf's Up, so it's hard to know what he's referring to.  Maybe this is where Carl and Dennis were upset over the scrapping of the Smile session songs with Smiley Smile - Carl did call it a bunt rather than a grand slam - but it seems strange with have only this odd quote and no recountings of an incident like this by Mike and the others.  Brian had two nervous breakdowns in 1967, and maybe after scrapping Smile in May and having a nervous breakdown he talked about breaking up the group. 

[Mark H.]

December 1966 the group (ie Mike) apparently have it out over Surf's Up and possibly other SMiLE related music.  From that point forward Brian's focus is really on just getting a single out...H&V or Veggies.  There was intermittent work on a couple other things but not with the same drive as fall '66.  The rot had set in!  Through out the winter of early 1967 Brian's mental status is in a state of decline....substance use, self doubt, rejection by the band, hassles from Murry, the Capital lawsuit, and David Anderle pushing the business side of Brother Records...all of these apparent pressures push a fragile guy "over-the-edge" so to speak....in addition Brian's mental illness is either not recognized or not treated or both.

Brian hears Sgt. Pepper in April at a Vegetable's session, now that is big pressure to produce....so he thinks about it over the next couple of weeks and decides...#$@! it.....I'm done....no more SMiLE.  The BB's come home from a tour and Brian won't work at Western or Goldstar like he had been doing....the next best option?

Do the tracks as a band in a low-key way....how else could they have done it?

[MBE]

While I am not saying I disagree with you, it's clear from many sources that Brian's relations with the band were really never the same again.  By 1968 he was sometimes not showing up for sessions and by 1970-71 he was expressing a certain amount of disinterest in all things Beach Boys.   I question whether-just because we don't know all the dirty laundry- there weren't arguments, etc.. There is a hint of it in a 1968 interview where Brian said that the group just about broke up after Smile.

Well through Surf's Up (with the exception of about a third of 20/20) he attended most sessions or at least did something on each track. Even Al (who complains the most about Brian in the late sixties) cites Friends as a good time for Brian and the others. We also can see that for Sunflower Brian did write a surplus of songs left unused. Desper and Brian himself told me that every Beach Boy worked well together in from mid 67- mid 71. Other then the Old Man River blow up and the few months after that Brian's presence was intermittent, this seems to be true. For example I think the Til I Die argument was largely bull that originated with Brian's so called book. They even took it on a tape to a New York FM station in early 1971 to play on the air.  No it wasn't "the same" but it was better then anything after and in fact some of Brian's best work was done then. One last point, I have always felt the use of Stereo was a big factor in Carl taking on some of Brian's former responsibilities.

To answer some other questions
1. Mike gave an interview while on tour in May that said Smile was coming out. So at least he thought it still was. Brian did work a little on it while they were gone. They probably only knew upon their return that it was over.

2. I think the studio being in the house helped them evolve more as a group. I also think they felt that Brian needed some encouragement to finish things.

3. It again was seemingly a situation that cropped up because Brian was not being good

4. I think they just wanted an album out, they probably resented that all their hard work came to nothing. Brian was probably the least upset about it as he was the one who decided they weren't good enough.. I doubt Mike felt Smiley was that much more commercial then Smile. 
5. They all seemed angry later to some extent. but remember they were in litigation with Capitol. I think that meant they couldn't do new songs.  Brian probably cared the least because he made the decision after a awkward meeting with Alan Praiser (sp?). The story goes that the guy started forcing a chiropractor on Brian during their meeting. 

6 Can't Wait Too Long is one of perhaps several dozen Brian Wilson songs from 1967-72 that weren't used for Beach Boys albums. Let's face it, it didn't really fit any of their albums of the time.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian hears Sgt. Pepper in April at a Vegetable's session, now that is big pressure to produce....

Hardly the whole album. Depending on who you believe, Macca played either "A Day In The Life" or "She's Leaving Home" on a studio piano (at Sound Recorders). That was April 10/11 (late night session) and there were four more "Vega-Tables" sessions after that, last one on 4/14.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Of course, just to muddy the waters, one has to consider the alleged meeting in December 1966 at which the rest of the band shot down Brian's '3-movement' plan for Smile, as reported by Peter Reum here and on other forums. I don't believe for a moment that Peter would fabricate anything like this, but in the light of reported and inferred evidence, it seems somewhat unlikely. It's also been said that in 1982, when he told Peter of the meeting, Brian was not in the best functioning state.  FWIW, I asked Bruce and he said he'd never heard of any such meeting. But in the Wacky World of Wilson, who knows...

[MBE]

Sounds like a Blueboard conspiracy theory. You know like Mike Love blew up the towers.

[Ian]

It just makes me wonder- They have incredible tracks that Brian refuses to release in 1967, so they make Smiley Smile-which any fool can see was under-produced in contrast to his earlier work. When the album does poorly-is there no anger or resentment towards their leader for clearly under-producing? In the 70s and 80s the convenient argument was that Brian took too much LSD and retired to his room. We now know that this was a gross exaggeration. Mr Wilson-as persuasively argued in Leafs book- was not in bed in 1967-1971 he just was less and less interested in being a BB and slowly developed other less healthy ways to occupy his time.  So instead of the image of Brian in his room in 1967 refusing to open the door (which Mike still carts out in interviews-Ex: Endless Harmony)- we have a picture of Brian hanging out with friends, eating dinner, AROUND or at sessions, but showing less and less interest in helping.  One has to believe that at the time of 20/20 when sales were in the tank- the group believed that if Brian WANTED TO, he could still make incredible music- so was their no resentment that HE DIDN"T WANT TO? And if he developed an attitude described by Marilyn in 1995 as "if the guys think they can do better than let them try" (paraphrasing), that resentment came out of nowhere?

[Mahalo]

Of course, just to muddy the waters, one has to consider the alleged meeting in December 1966 at which the rest of the band shot down Brian's '3-movement' plan for Smile, as reported by Peter Reum here and on other forums. I don't believe for a moment that Peter would fabricate anything like this, but in the light of reported and inferred evidence, it seems somewhat unlikely. It's also been said that in 1982, when he told Peter of the meeting, Brian was not in the best functioning state.  FWIW, I asked Bruce and he said he'd never heard of any such meeting. But in the Wacky World of Wilson, who knows...

IMO, Brian was closer to finishing the album than we will ever know. Considering the immensity of the project and the importance of the tunes (Surf's Up, etc..), I'm sure Brian knew what was what back in the recesses of his mind. He was adamant about the CITFOTM tag on the 71 Surf's Up, Da Da has the clarinet echoing the melody just like the way the English Horn does on I'm Waiting For the Day.....all these SMiLE! trax were recorded so I'm sure he knew the melody and had some idea as to the lyrics....and also the playing order....(ie. Holidays into Wind Chimes...)

IMO

[Glenn Greenberg]

<<<the Old Man River blow up>>>


What was this?

[MBE]

Brian began work on Old Man River obsessively and Mike told him it was a waste of time. Brian's work with the Beach Boys on 20/20 fell off after that. He didn't return too often until 1969.

[Glenn Greenberg]

Brian began work on Old Man River obsessively and Mike told him it was a waste of time. Brian's work with the Beach Boys on 20/20 fell off after that. He didn't return too often until 1969.

Ah. Thanks!

[MBE]

No problem.

an I am sure it was easy to blame Brian, which is why people don't realize how much Brian did in those years and how long it actually took him to decline. Still I don't think they really did something he didn't want until Surf's Up was remade. Until then I think the studio atmosphere was friendly, and that marks the time Dennis began to have problem with the group too. Maybe from smashing his hand and then pulling his songs off of Surf's Up. I tend to think maybe he pulled the songs because Brian was upset. The Brian myth is a great story but we know it was never black and white. The more I learn about the Beach Boys the more I think they were for the most part behind Brian, even if there was some resentment when he felt like slacking off.
Now I don't apply this from 1977 on because they all acted poorly to each other from that time on. That short breakup was the turning point and I would say they never truly got back together.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I tend to think maybe he [Dennis] pulled the songs because Brian was upset. 

Dennis pulled his songs because he fell out with Carl over the track sequence... which could also explain why he was, in essence, absent from CATP-ST as well. Aside from the two tracks culled from his solo project, anyone hear him at all ?

[Dancing Bear]

One has to believe that at the time of 20/20 when sales were in the tank- the group believed that if Brian WANTED TO, he could still make incredible music- so was their no resentment that HE DIDN"T WANT TO?

I don't know about that. I believe that with "Heroes and Villains", "Darling" and "Do It Again" Brian was doing his very best to produce commercial singles.

[Bill Tobelman]

The end of SMiLE started in November of '66 when Brian began to question the "appropriateness" of the "Fire" music. That was the point where David Anderle said they started to have problems.

Brian obviously knew what he was up to and nixed SMiLE cuz he wanted to play it safe. I can appreciate what a drag it was working with the guys & all those other "no smile" reasons.

[Mahalo]

The end of SMiLE started in November of '66 when Brian began to question the "appropriateness" of the "Fire" music. That was the point where David Anderle said they started to have problems.

Brian obviously knew what he was up to and nixed SMiLE cuz he wanted to play it safe.

A question that needs to be addressed.... did Spector's mind gangsters start the fire across the street to mess with Brian's fragile psyche?

[c-man]

I tend to think maybe he [Dennis] pulled the songs because Brian was upset. 

Dennis pulled his songs because he fell out with Carl over the track sequence... which could also explain why he was, in essence, absent from CATP-ST as well. Aside from the two tracks culled from his solo project, anyone hear him at all ?

I can hear his voice on "Marcella"...maybe even two parts.  But yeah, I think that was pretty much it.

[chris.metcalfe]

6) I think 'Can't Wait too Long' as we know it was painstakingly and digitally put together by Mark Linnet in the late 80s. In 1968 it was just a bunch of related snippets that Brian had left unfinished. A hard task for anyone to take with the technology of the time.

I don't think this is true at all. Like many others I heard the tapes of CWTL about 1982-3 and it was basically the 4 sections which make up the 1990 release, slightly longer at each 'end'. Linnett just tidied them up a bit. The later versions had small extra parts, but the original tapes are pretty spectacular. Don't know about what Bruce played to the BB Stompers in 1979 though.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Just so - the tapes of "CWTL/BWTL" circulating late 70s/early 80s were, in essence, identical to what turned up on the 2fers.

Excepting quality, natch. 

[Bill Tobelman]

Noname asked;
"A question that needs to be addressed....
did Spector's mind gangsters start the fire across the street to mess with Brian's fragile psyche?"

That's a good question. The reason we, the public, DON"T have the answer is that Brian wasn't/isn't sharing some personal experiences with us.

Based on Brian's "autobiography" though...one can, with a little imagination (remember, Einstein said "imagination is more important than knowledge") find out why Brian feared the mind gangsters and felt paranoid and why the fires made him uptight.

In the movie SECONDS there are numerous scenes that parallel Brian's LSD trip experiences. And since Brian was not sharing the contents of those trips--nobody picked up on what Brian was relating to in SECONDS (and Brian wasn't offering the info either), AND...Brian thought that somehow someone must be tapping into his mind for the secret info. And if you are familiar with some of the thinking typically associated with LSD experiences things like ESP and mind reading and vibes seem very possible.

As far as the fires across the street making Brian paranoid.....Brian was working on a new mystical album form (SMiLE). This was a project who's mystical power & potential was of uncertain quantity & quality. The one track which most embodied the idea of taking the negative trip experience to the listener was "Fire." So Brian got a little worried about what he was unleashing on the world and his growing paranoia had to do with these factors(which rarely enter into any SMiLE discussion).

As far as Phil Spector goes...Brian was always in competition with Phil (though Spector wasn't in competition with Wilson). SMiLE was to be Brian's advanced artistic leap which put him above & beyond Spector. Remember Brian was keeping lots of info about what he was up to secret. This secret info was what was putting Brian artistically beyond Spector. How could Spector compete? Well, when Brian saw SECONDS & saw his secrets on the big screen & the main character's name is "Wilson" and stuff. Brian couldn't explain how anybody got his secret info. Perhaps it was mind gangsters & the one person who might want to do this (to compete musically) was his assumed rival, Phil Spector. Maybe Spectorr was behind it.

[Dancing Bear]

6) I think 'Can't Wait too Long' as we know it was painstakingly and digitally put together by Mark Linnet in the late 80s. In 1968 it was just a bunch of related snippets that Brian had left unfinished. A hard task for anyone to take with the technology of the time.

I don't think this is true at all. Like many others I heard the tapes of CWTL about 1982-3 and it was basically the 4 sections which make up the 1990 release, slightly longer at each 'end'. Linnett just tidied them up a bit. The later versions had small extra parts, but the original tapes are pretty spectacular. Don't know about what Bruce played to the BB Stompers in 1979 though.

I stand corrected.