15 Big Ones: the album with the most outtakes in music history?

[adamghost]

DB, about Carl...when did he start using smack again? 'Cause it's like he stopped giving a sh*t. Honestly, there was no reason for 15 BO to come out the way it did. It's not like he was doing anything besides touring after Holland, right? All of a sudden he quit writing. Not that he was the most prolific writer in the world, but after writing "Trader", he didn't do anything until "Full Sail" and "Going South"...shudder. Oh, and "Angel Come Home", but that was actually a great track.

I'm led to believe that the 15 Big Ones fiasco was one big reason WHY Carl (and Dennis) stopped giving a shyyiiit...although I think that's a little strong.  Carl's statements to the press at that time were that he wasn't happy about the album, but then rolled up his sleeves and pitched in to support his brother.  His work on LOVE YOU, basically mixing the whole album down for Brian, supports this statement. 

I think Carl and Dennis were profoundly unhappy with the direction of the group from 1976 onward, and if you're stuck in a job that you once loved and now hate, you act out...that's human nature.  There were other factors I've heard cited, most notably Carl's disintegrating marriage and the refusal of the BBs to allow Dennis to tour solo, that probably also contributed.  I'm not excusing or condoning drug use, but if you put yourself in Carl or Dennis' shoes in 1977, having to go out and tour and do the dog and pony show in a way that doesn't stimulate you and that you can't get behind, it's really no wonder they started self-medicating more heavily.  They must have both felt trapped in a box they helped create, and once they stopped fighting and gave in to the escape offered by drugs, they had less and less power to escape from the box.

[Sheriff John Stone]

There were other factors I've heard cited, most notably Carl's disintegrating marriage and the refusal of the BBs to allow Dennis to tour solo, that probably also contributed.

I remember reading a post, on one of the BB message boards, by a pretty good source, that it was DENNIS who pulled out of his proposed tour. The post seemed reasonable, except for the reason given, which was, and I'm paraphrasing "what if he was successful"....

[Dancing Bear]

There were other factors I've heard cited, most notably Carl's disintegrating marriage and the refusal of the BBs to allow Dennis to tour solo, that probably also contributed.

I remember reading a post, on one of the BB message boards, by a pretty good source, that it was DENNIS who pulled out of his proposed tour. The post seemed reasonable, except for the reason given, which was, and I'm paraphrasing "what if he was successful"....

Ed Roach's version: Dennis pulled the plug because Caribou wouldn't pay for a string section to join the tour.

Not allowing Dennis to tour solo and joining the Beach Boys on stage on his spare time wasn't cool, but Dennis could always have come back to the band some weeks after his tour was done. Does anybody here believe he'd be banned for life? He physically assaulted a band member and wasn't kicked out, for God's sake!

He probably didn't tour POB for the same reason he didn't deliver Bambu to the recording company. Maybe the real question is: How did he ever finished POB? 

[Jon Stebbins]

There were other factors I've heard cited, most notably Carl's disintegrating marriage and the refusal of the BBs to allow Dennis to tour solo, that probably also contributed.

I remember reading a post, on one of the BB message boards, by a pretty good source, that it was DENNIS who pulled out of his proposed tour. The post seemed reasonable, except for the reason given, which was, and I'm paraphrasing "what if he was successful"....

Ed Roach's comments on the subject that there was a certain amount of fear of success on Dennis' part...yes, true...however Adam is correct in that in recent years there are credible sources who will go on the record in the new edition of The Real Beach Boy book, extremely credible, who recount an actual incident in which Dennis was threatened with termination from the BB's if he were to undertake the scheduled solo tour, Steve Love delivered the message with 3/5 of the BB's themselves in support of the threat. So of course it was Dennis who pulled out of the tour, no question, but his motivation for doing so was one of the things that some point to as an early nail in his coffin. What happened later is irrelevant because in the context of late 1977 Dennis was a hot commodity, functioning well, the album was selling, the material was rehearsed and sounding magnificent(I've heard the tapes, no strings but plenty of brass), the dates were booked...and THEN the threat was made which killed his momentum.

[Dancing Bear]

Mr. Stebbins, do you blame Mike Love for Dennis' death?

[Jon Stebbins]

Mr. Stebbins, do you blame Mike Love for Dennis' death?

No...water in the lungs.

[Sheriff John Stone]

There were other factors I've heard cited, most notably Carl's disintegrating marriage and the refusal of the BBs to allow Dennis to tour solo, that probably also contributed.

I remember reading a post, on one of the BB message boards, by a pretty good source, that it was DENNIS who pulled out of his proposed tour. The post seemed reasonable, except for the reason given, which was, and I'm paraphrasing "what if he was successful"....

...however Adam is correct in that in recent years there are credible sources who will go on the record in the new edition of The Real Beach Boy book, extremely credible, who recount an actual incident in which Dennis was threatened with termination from the BB's if he were to undertake the scheduled solo tour...

What is amazing and almost unbelievable about that is the folllowing:

1) Dennis, in 1976-77, was contributing no new songs to the group for their albums, no new songs to be performed live, Dennis himself sang no songs live (unless you count "You Are So Beautiful"), and could've easily been replaced by Bobby Figueroa on drums. I won't get into the substance abuse and on stage conflicts. So, why would they be adamant about him tagging along? I was around back then too, and I think you're overrating Dennis's contributions to the group at that time. People were not buying tickets to see Dennis Wilson, as attractive as he might've been.

2) A year later, Mike Love was performing and RECORDING OUTSIDE OF THE BEACH BOYS, with Celebration. 

3) About 4 short years later, Carl was "allowed" to release and tour, not one, but two solo albums. And I think it's safe to say Carl was more of an asset to The Beach Boys than Dennis was.

Something doesn't make sense here.

[c-man]

Maybe it's not so much that they wanted Dennis in the group, as it is they DIDN'T want him going solo ('cause he likely would've been somewhat successful...possibly TOO successful for their liking). 

I agree though that it seems hypocritical that Mike and Carl were allowed  to do the exact thing Dennis was forbidden to do.

I also think, based on what Mr. Roach has said, that Dennis secretely feared being successful, because the pressure would be enormous, and he'd seen what that kind of pressure had done to Brian.  So he had mixed feelings about his solo career.  He wanted it, but then again he didn't.  Besides that, one of the musicians who rehearsed in the band that would've backed Dennis on his solo tour told me that despite the band sounding incredible, in his opinion Dennis wasn't "ready" for a full-on solo performing career.

[Wilsonista]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is that supposed to imply?

[Sheriff John Stone]

...one of the musicians who rehearsed in the band that would've backed Dennis on his solo tour told me that despite the band sounding incredible, in his opinion Dennis wasn't "ready" for a full-on solo performing career.

Yes, c-man, I have to agree with whoever told that reason to you. That seems more logical, not that logic has anything to do with it.

Speaking of rehearsals, it's interesting that rehearsals were even conducted, with arrangements being written, and Carl helping out and everything - if Dennis was not ALLOWED to tour. Or were these rehearsals conducted before the vote was taken to ban Dennis Wilson from touring as a solo artist.

It does seem contradictory doesn't it. The Beach Boys didn't want Dennis's songs for their albums yet they didn't want HIM to record them for his? The Beach Boys replaced Dennis numerous times in the studio and on the road - as a drummer - but didn't want him to drum as a solo performer? Because of Dennis's damaged voice, his vocals were, should I say, "tolerated" in the mid/late 70's, yet, they felt him singing on tour as a solo performer might be too successful? I'm confused. I've gotta re-think this one....

[c-man]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is that supposed to imply?

I took it to mean Dennis' personality and/or lifestyle were not conducive to handling the responsibility of being the "headliner".  It's one thing to be the drummer for the Beach Boys, and maybe sing a song or two at their shows, then slip safely behind the drums again.  It's quite another to be the star of your own show, singing all the songs, and taking the full responsibility for the success or failure of that tour.  In interviews of the time before his solo album came out, Dennis admits to being very scared of stepping out on his own, nervously watching for peoples' reaction as they listened to his solo recordings for the first time.  

[Aegir]

2) A year later, Mike Love was performing and RECORDING OUTSIDE OF THE BEACH BOYS, with Celebration. 

3) About 4 short years later, Carl was "allowed" to release and tour, not one, but two solo albums. And I think it's safe to say Carl was more of an asset to The Beach Boys than Dennis was.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Celebration and Carl solo are crap compared to POB, though. No one was afraid they would be too successful.

[MBE]

Well I think as late as the summer or fall of 1976 tour Dennis added a lot to the live band vocally and musically. After that it was hit and miss, but even as late as Knebworth his charisma gave the group an edge that would have been otherwise missing. I think when it comes down to it, Dennis was ordered to stop the tour because of when it was to occur. The group had just broken up and it was probably an effort to keep the Wilson's in line. Who was behind much of this was Steve Love. I think he was gone by the time Mike and Carl did solo tours, and besides even if still was there for Celebration Mike was his brother so.... Besides a P.O.B. tour would have shown the Beach Boys up, something Mike and Carl weren't able to do.

[Wilsonista]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is that supposed to imply?

I took it to mean Dennis' personality and/or lifestyle were not conducive to handling the responsibility of being the "headliner".  It's one thing to be the drummer for the Beach Boys, and maybe sing a song or two at their shows, then slip safely behind the drums again.  It's quite another to be the star of your own show, singing all the songs, and taking the full responsibility for the success or failure of that tour.  In interviews of the time before his solo album came out, Dennis admits to being very scared of stepping out on his own, nervously watching for peoples' reaction as they listened to his solo recordings for the first time.  

Oops.

I'm sorry, Craig.  That wasn't meant as a response to you. That was a response to Dancing Bear's implication that Jon thinks Mike was "responsible" for Dennis' death (Jon had, I guess by that already made his response). I meant no offense to you at all.  I just found Bear's question to be off-putting and offensive.

[Dancing Bear]

I also think, based on what Mr. Roach has said, that Dennis secretely feared being successful, because the pressure would be enormous, and he'd seen what that kind of pressure had done to Brian.  So he had mixed feelings about his solo career.  He wanted it, but then again he didn't.  Besides that, one of the musicians who rehearsed in the band that would've backed Dennis on his solo tour told me that despite the band sounding incredible, in his opinion Dennis wasn't "ready" for a full-on solo performing career.

Mr. Roach also says that Dennis sabotaged the final POB mixes on purpose, for the same reasons.

[Dancing Bear]

Oops.

I'm sorry, Craig.  That wasn't meant as a response to you. That was a response to Dancing Bear's implication that Jon thinks Mike was "responsible" for Dennis' death (Jon had, I guess by that already made his response). I meant no offense to you at all.  I just found Bear's question to be off-putting and offensive.

I made a question, he answered. Life goes on.

I can list a number of your posts in my direction that were more off-putting and offensive, but I answered them as best as I could and moved on. I don't think this concerns you at all, really.

[c-man]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is that supposed to imply?

I took it to mean Dennis' personality and/or lifestyle were not conducive to handling the responsibility of being the "headliner".  It's one thing to be the drummer for the Beach Boys, and maybe sing a song or two at their shows, then slip safely behind the drums again.  It's quite another to be the star of your own show, singing all the songs, and taking the full responsibility for the success or failure of that tour.  In interviews of the time before his solo album came out, Dennis admits to being very scared of stepping out on his own, nervously watching for peoples' reaction as they listened to his solo recordings for the first time.  

Oops.

I'm sorry, Craig.  That wasn't meant as a response to you. That was a response to Dancing Bear's implication that Jon thinks Mike was "responsible" for Dennis' death (Jon had, I guess by that already made his response). I meant no offense to you at all.  I just found Bear's question to be off-putting and offensive.

No harm done, Rob.  At least not from my perspective...

[Sheriff John Stone]

2) A year later, Mike Love was performing and RECORDING OUTSIDE OF THE BEACH BOYS, with Celebration. 

3) About 4 short years later, Carl was "allowed" to release and tour, not one, but two solo albums. And I think it's safe to say Carl was more of an asset to The Beach Boys than Dennis was.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Celebration and Carl solo are crap compared to POB, though. No one was afraid they would be too successful.

Aegir, so you think The Beach Boys allowed Carl Wilson, the lead singer, lead guitarist, and band leader, to pursue a solo career because they didn't think he would be successful, but prevented Dennis Wilson from pursuing a solo career because they thought he would be too successful?

Also, don't forget that Celebration (featuring Mike Love) did have some success in the form of a Top 40 single, "Almost Summer", which is the highest charting single of any solo Beach Boy.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Mr. Roach also says that Dennis sabotaged the final POB mixes on purpose, for the same reasons.

If that's sabotage, I'd love to hear the "good" version

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

DB, Rob, both of you guys need to chill.

[MBE]

2) A year later, Mike Love was performing and RECORDING OUTSIDE OF THE BEACH BOYS, with Celebration. 

3) About 4 short years later, Carl was "allowed" to release and tour, not one, but two solo albums. And I think it's safe to say Carl was more of an asset to The Beach Boys than Dennis was.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Celebration and Carl solo are crap compared to POB, though. No one was afraid they would be too successful.

Aegir, so you think The Beach Boys allowed Carl Wilson, the lead singer, lead guitarist, and band leader, to pursue a solo career because they didn't think he would be successful, but prevented Dennis Wilson from pursuing a solo career because they thought he would be too successful?

Also, don't forget that Celebration (featuring Mike Love) did have some success in the form of a Top 40 single, "Almost Summer", which is the highest charting single of any solo Beach Boy.

Well Carl did quit so that explains that. Mike was still doing the Beach Boys sound and involving the others to a great extent. Only Dennis had nothing to do with Celebration.

[Cabinessenceking]

does AGD still have that list of 15BO outtakes? could someone share it here please?

[Nicko1234]

This is the list of all unreleased songs:

http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/vaults.html

[GuyOnTheBeach]

I believe it's instrumental, piano only, according to Badman.

Even if that is the case I'd still love to hear it, especially if it's Brian playing, he had/has a great boogie-woogie style that I reckon would sound brilliant on the middle section (Out of college, money spent...). Always felt that great piano part was buried in The Beatles' version which is one of the many reasons I was happy when the Rockband Multitracks leaked a few years back.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This is the list of all unreleased songs:

http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/vaults.html

That list hasn't been updated in years - since BT withdrew support for their free webhosting with no notice. Thankfully, David Beard most kindly offered me room in the ESQ mansion shortly thereafter, hence the vaults list - and indeed the rest of 10452 - now resides here:

http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/

More precisely, http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/vaults.html.