My theory on what helped "kill" the group

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

He was coasting, too. They all were.

[Chris Brown]

He was coasting, too. They all were.

And just because Carl went along with things doesn't mean he necessarily agreed.  It was just easier to keep quiet and keep racking in the cash.

[MBE]

I asked Marilyn about this when Carl was alive. She said there's a point where you want to keep the peace. Carl did that through the years to the point where the was no break up. Yet I find no evidence that he tried all that hard after Dennis' death to make the Beach Boys vital and exciting. Professional perhaps, but not creative. From how open he was in 1981-83 about how he felt the band was letting him down before he quit, I don't think he would disagree with me from a creative standpoint. He hired professionals and got them to play with skill, but the real vitality was missing. He did maybe continue for the money, but I do think he equally was their because he loved making people happy. That the Beach Boys continued to do. Having said that, it doesn't mean they were using the full extent of their creativity.

[Quincy]

you're missing the note...Brian Wilson wrote those songs that we all love...not Carl.. not Mike etc..they were  just trying to hang on

[the captain]

you're missing the note...Brian Wilson wrote those songs that we all love...not Carl.. not Mike etc..they were  just trying to hang on

Speaking only for myself, Brian may have written much of many of the Beach Boys songs I love, but Mike co-wrote quite a few, as did Al, Carl and Dennis. And Ricky. And Blondie. (With all due respect, not Bruce. I dislike most of his songs, to say nothing of his sickly-sweet production.) I can't get behind the "Brian's the genius and everyone else just got lucky to land behind him to ride the wave," David Leaf-style stuff.

[Wilsonista]

you're missing the note...Brian Wilson wrote those songs that we all love...not Carl.. not Mike etc..they were  just trying to hang on

Could it be that having their own efforts being ignored made them lose their confidence in their own talents?

[Quincy]

Could be....but I think they knew when Brian was finished..they were f....d

[Steve Mayo]

to me the group killed themselves. don't need to look at someone or something else to blame. they just blew it just about all the time. every time they had momentum they make a silly decision to kill that momentum. business decisions/album decisions/live show decisions..they made very poor choices.

i just think they deserved the biggest part of the blame. they did themselves in...... time after time after time.....

[Alex]

I may be looking at this in a much too simplistic manner, but I think they should've kept Blondie and Ricky in the band and kept going in the direction they took on CATP and Holland. I blame Endless Summer and Murray's death as what kicked off their downhill plunge.

[kookadams]

Alright first of all, a lotta people like to rag on the MIU Album, and I know it's all a matter of opinion but it really is a pretty decent album considering that it was recorded in a climate of a lotta hostility. They did great covers of Come Go with Me and Peggy Sue, Kona Coast is a great re-worked version of Hawaii, Pitter Patter is fucking awesome and Sweet Sunday Kinda Love is a beautiful song. The reason I bring up this album here is because the points I just made about those particular songs shows that the Beach Boys were still producing great music through 1977. Yeah that album came out in '78 but it was actually recorded a year prior to its release.
So yeah they had a lotta  their backing musicians sing leads on songs, and yeah it's because sh*t got to a point to where someone that sung the song originally couldn't anymore cuz of whatever reason but I don't see why that would even matter. I also see a lotta responses on here from people saying "what if the Beach Boys broke up after the Holland album etc." well what the f*** do you think would have happened? Doesn't it even matter? The fact is that they didn't, they kept putting out albums and they kept making great music. There's so much that the Beach Boys did in a such a short period of time to create that spirit of music that will exist eternally. Even if Americans in the late 60s were fucking stupid and cared more about hippie bullshit than the Beach Boys, people in the UK were buying 'em like crazy, so there were still heavily appreciated during that time just not in the US, but everyone was so f***ed up on LSD at the time that they wanted excessive hogwash to expand their trip rather than well articulated rock n' roll. Why do you think the Beatles were still big? It's not cuz their were making great music, it's cuz they were making bogus hippie garbage and people ate it up. The last great Beatles album was Rubber Soul and everyone fucking knows it! The Beatles were over in '69, that's when they did their last recordings as a group, and it's when they played their last concert as well. And it's a goshdarn good thing they broke up, they should have years earlier. I also noticed a lotta people like to talk sh*t about Mike Love and that's a given; Mike Love is an egotistical wort on the face of the Beach Boys existence but was also very important at the same time, he had the voice, he was the MC, and he did contribute a lotta lyrics that shouldn't be overlooked. I despise Mike Love for the fact that he along with Bruce think it's perfectly find to refer to themselves as the Beach Boys when it's just them with a backing band, and he litigates with Al over the use of the name when Al was calling it "Family & Friends" and he still litigates with Brian when Brian is the reason that Mike is where he is altogether.  Dennis and Carl are resting in peace but the Beach Boys are not fucking dead at all! The spirit they evoked will aways live on. And let me add that all this rambling is coming from a 22-year old that has been a Beach Boys fanatic since first grade.

[the captain]

 

 

[Pretty Funky]

 They were on their death bed when certain members could not stand to be in the same room or on the same stage together. That could put it back to the early 60s.
The Beach Boys were a lot like the characters in the movie 'Galaxy Quest' IMO. Trapped in a well paying gig.
If I had received a good pay-check and 'benefits' from my mid-teens, who would, or could, give it up?

[Jon Stebbins]

"Why do you think the Beatles were still big? It's not cuz their were making great music, it's cuz they were making bogus hippie garbage and people ate it up. The last great Beatles album was Rubber Soul and everyone fodaing knows it!"

That's gotta be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen written in my life.

[Wilsonista]

"Why do you think the Beatles were still big? It's not cuz their were making great music, it's cuz they were making bogus hippie garbage and people ate it up. The last great Beatles album was Rubber Soul and everyone fodaing knows it!"

That's gotta be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen written in my life.

The Beatles remained big because that "bogus hippie garbage" (which was neither bogus nor garbage)) still retained much of the musical values of classic pop tunesmithship. And their band was united as a creative force up until the White Album. The BB starting with SMiLE weren't.  That started the cycle of triumph followed by crappy decisions that would plague the group for the res of their career.

Rob "Sgt. Pepper IS a great album" McCabe

[Jay]

I have a question about band decisions, but I'm not sure where to put it. I guess in this topic is ok. My question is: right before Carl died, did he make any decisions to resign "leadership" to Mike? I'm just curios what he would think of all the legal sh*t between Al and Mike. Carl spent most of his life fighting for peace in the band, but it seems that the sh*t hit the fan the day that he died.

[wiggbuggie]

I think another thing why carl started to loose interest is because they played no new songs live they played the same thing over and over again. Rather than focusing or playing their current album the surf and beach image they never got rid of and most ppl think of the beach boys as that.

[John]

Why do you think the Beatles were still big? It's not cuz their were making great music, it's cuz they were making bogus hippie garbage and people ate it up. The last great Beatles album was Rubber Soul and everyone fodaing knows it!

"Everyone" knows it huh? And Revolver is crap now is it? But MIU is decent? No further questions, your honour.
Get a clue.

[Cam Mott]

Geez, take it easy on young grasshopper.

I really doubt Carl had a problem with the setlists; I believe his problem was with practicing enough the setlists they had.

[kookadams]

Revolver has it's moments, and the following albums do as well. I'm just saying that the Beatles got to a point where their music was excessive and didn't have the freshness that it once had. The Beach Boys on the other hand in the late 60s kept making great albums whether they were commercially successful or not. I mean think about it, in 1968 the Beatles put out the 'White Album' which some consider a masterpiece, the Beach Boys put out 'Friends', great album but a flop, in 1969 the Beatles put out 'Abbey Road', the Beach Boys did '20/20'; Even though the Beach Boys grew their hair like (like everyone did) they never gave into the excessiveness of the era. And it would have been a terrible thing if the Beach Boys broke up at that time because the world wouldn't have seen the possibilities of what they produced. 

[mikeyj]

I also see a lotta responses on here from people saying "what if the Beach Boys broke up after the Holland album etc." well what the foda do you think would have happened?

I don't know? Maybe like I suggested before... that they would be more highly praised in terms of their artistic achievements. That was my whole point when I said "if they Beach Boys broke up after Holland"... if they hadn't released stuff like M.I.U. Album through till SIP as well as 15 Big Ones, then perhaps they would be more well respected. Surely you can see that MOST of the songs on these albums did nothing but tarnish the Beach Boys good reputation? Okay, sure you like M.I.U. Album and I don't think it's all bad either. It has nice moments as well as some awful ones but the reason you and I most likely give it a chance is that we are FANS of the Beach Boys. Honestly, most people would NOT like stuff like She's Got Rhythm or Pitter Patter or whatever. Honestly, considering most people wouldn't even 'get' the B-side of Today! which is some of the best pop songs you'll ever hear, I doubt people would buy into the crap on 15 Big Ones, M.I.U. etc.. Like I say I'm not saying they still weren't a good band and still had some decent ideas, but they just weren't as creative as they once were and also weren't as commercial as they once were.

[MBE]

Actually with the exception of 20/20 all of the albums the Beach Boys did between 67-71 were very much group efforts and that includes Brian. Steve Desper had writen extensively on this, and Brian also told me it was a great era for them as far as working together as a unit.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

From what I've heard, their seemed to be a last tight nitched effort for Holland as well. Although, Dennis and Brian were not entirely into it, they were still included. Carl and the Passions has a lot of good songs, but, like 20/20, they don't come together in the album well.

LALA, I guess you could say, gave one more album that seemed to fit together well and included everyone's creative efforts. Although, it was not an accurate potrayal of the band at the time.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Revolver has it's moments, and the following albums do as well. I'm just saying that the Beatles got to a point where their music was excessive and didn't have the freshness that it once had. The Beach Boys on the other hand in the late 60s kept making great albums whether they were commercially successful or not. I mean think about it, in 1968 the Beatles put out the 'White Album' which some consider a masterpiece, the Beach Boys put out 'Friends', great album but a flop, in 1969 the Beatles put out 'Abbey Road', the Beach Boys did '20/20'; Even though the Beach Boys grew their hair like (like everyone did) they never gave into the excessiveness of the era. And it would have been a terrible thing if the Beach Boys broke up at that time because the world wouldn't have seen the possibilities of what they produced.

I actually agree with most every thing you said, except one thing... they sure as hell did fall victim to the era's excessiveness. Two Words. Charles. Manson.

[MBE]

Carl and the Passions was kind of a series of solo works where Brian did his songs, Dennis did his, the Flame did theirs, and Mike and Al did theirs. Bruce wasn't involved much, and Carl kind of oversaw the whole thing. The difference on it is that there was little interaction. I mean Brian helped write He Come Down, but things like that where rare. Perhaps it's the Beach Boys white album. Why did it happen like this? Well Desper was gone, the group was changing it's lineup, Brian was more into Spring and begining to abuse cocaine, Dennis had hurt his hand etc.

Holland was more of a group thing save for Brian and Dennis. Though the work he did was good, Brian was starting to put on weight and miss more and more sessions,. He had said in 1976 that he had a second breakdown there and his drug use was on the rise. Dennis for his part felt Brian was not being treated well. Dennis seemed not to like being there period to the point where Carl had to sing his songs.

L.A. Light is kind of a return to democracy, but Brian was in such bad shape that he did next to nothing for it.  The others seemed to work fairly hard on it except it was back to a Carl and The Passions situation where it was more like solo work. Dennis did help with Lady Lynda, and there were other exceptions but it was hardly the strong interaction between everyone that had been commonplace a decade earlier.

In a way 15 Big Ones was the last group album. Not in the songwriting department, but kind of like the pre Pet Sounds albums where everyone worked together on the tracks. The sessions were very tense which is probably why they never worked quite as close again.

[carl r]

Revolver has it's moments, and the following albums do as well. I'm just saying that the Beatles got to a point where their music was excessive and didn't have the freshness that it once had. The Beach Boys on the other hand in the late 60s kept making great albums whether they were commercially successful or not. I mean think about it, in 1968 the Beatles put out the 'White Album' which some consider a masterpiece, the Beach Boys put out 'Friends', great album but a flop, in 1969 the Beatles put out 'Abbey Road', the Beach Boys did '20/20'; Even though the Beach Boys grew their hair like (like everyone did) they never gave into the excessiveness of the era. And it would have been a terrible thing if the Beach Boys broke up at that time because the world wouldn't have seen the possibilities of what they produced.

I actually agree with most every thing you said, except one thing... they sure as hell did fall victim to the era's excessiveness. Two Words. Charles. Manson.

I've heard this before on this board, that somehow the Beatles were bogus druggie hippie trend-hoppers, as opposed to the genuine Beach Boys and their solid middle-class ways. It would certainly be true if the BB were Bruce, Bruce, Bruce and Bruce. Other than Bruce, everything I've read would indicate that the Beach Boys were all into rock'n'roll and the lifestyle of a rock'n'roller. Kind of like the Beatles, in other words.

You can maybe just about compare the BB to the Doors in this way, but with the Beatles, I just don't get this point at all, I just don't see them as being pretentious. Brian and people like Ringo apparently hung out at the same parties sometimes according to the "autobiography". So who were the poseurs?

Lack of freshness - well, "Leaving This Town" isn't really like "Catch a Wave" is it... ?