My theory on what helped "kill" the group

[Jay]

Aside from the cheerleaders, the group fighting, and Carl's general lack of interest after Dennis died, I have one more theory on what helped to destroy the Beach Boys. This seems to not get talked about much. Starting in the 1980's, members of the backing band were allowed to sing complete songs, over "original" BB members. I know that Billy sang Sail On Sailor in the 1970's, but people like Adrian Baker were allowed to tour and sing lead on "Don't Worry Baby" on a nightly basis. It should be noted that while this went on, Carl was still actively touring. I'm thinking of the Japan TV broadcast from 1991, specifically. Why was Adrian Baker allowed to destroy "Don't Worry Baby", when Carl could have easily done it much better? I think that this may have increased Carl's lack of caring anymore, as far as The Beach Boys were concerned.

[tpesky]

Al's and Carl's voices were changing by then and they could no longer handle the upper ranges as much. Wouldn't It Be Nice passed from Al to Carl to Matt Jardine as well. Al stopped singing lead/falsetto on Surfer Girl and his falsetto part on God Only Knows in the late 80's. Carl was being doubled on the high notes on Good Vibrations and had been splitting Dont Worry Baby but gave it up completely by  90. Although Carl's voice is weird, it was definitely changing by the mid -late 80's but then he seemed to sound better in the early 90's. Al just kind of lost range little by little, but his mid range voice is still spectacular today. I think it was an effort to help the overall sound and not strain their voices. I wished and wish still that Mike would give up some leads he can't handle as well. I can see what you mean though, when you pay to see your favorite group and singers, you want to see them sing the songs though instead of a back up band. It kills some of the excitement  a little.

[Shane]

Since we're on this topic, here's a video I came across last night.  Its from earlier this year, a Brian and Al performance of Sloop John B.  Its rather touching to hear the intro to the song, sung by the original two guys who sang it on the studio recording:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=RFeaKK1o1Qs

[Jay]

. I can see what you mean though, when you pay to see your favorite group and singers, you want to see them sing the songs though instead of a back up band. It kills some of the excitement  a little.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of what might have been going through Carl's head as he watched Adrian Baker sing "Don't Worry Baby". I know that Carl's voice changed a little from the 80's to the 90's, but I just think that he shouldn't have given up so easily. If Carl couldn't sing DWB in it's original faster tempo, they could have done it in the tempo that they did for the In Concert album from 1973. It would have given him a little more time to transition from normal voice to falsetto. I just think that "giving the songs away" to people like Billy, Adrian Baker, Bobby Figuroa, and Matt Jardine was kind of a cop out. I can understand having to rely on people like Matt for some insanely high notes like the "Jai Guru Dev" ending to "All This Is That", but not for complete songs.

[MBE]

Jay I have to agree with you. It was not interesting to hear non Beach Boys do leads. At the show now I understand because it isn't our Beach Boys, but when Carl was there it shouldn't have been going on so frequently.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Even being a BB fan who still hasn't accepted Blondie singing the lead on "Sail On Sailor", I don't think backing musicians singing leads in concert was much of a detriment to the band's popularity.

First, only a diehard (which is about 1%) would really care - or even notice. Only about 1 out of a 100 in the audience would feel cheated by it; as long as they got their fill of the surf and turf classics, they were happy.

Second, I've been to concerts with all of those backing musicians you mentioned, and I have to say, including Adrian Baker, they did a pretty good job on those leads. I recall Mike Love acknowledging them and they would receive a nice round of applause.

I always felt the practice was done to give the Carl and Al a break (and maybe to change things up), although, keeping in mind the average Beach Boys' concert lasted less than two hours, you wonder why they would need one.

Even though I knew it wasn't going to change, I always had more problems when Brian was present, and they had to give away HIS parts to others. Again, I knew why, but it was frustrating when he wouldn't sing, say, the last verse to Sloop John B. Carl would take over, singing "poor cook he caught the fits. Threw away all my grits". I'd say to myself, come on Brian, can't you handle a simple line like that.

[Amy B.]

It's interesting to think about this in a day and age where people are starting to argue that Brian should let his band members sing lead on some songs.

[donald]

I would like to see them do a couple of Wondermints songs.

Why not?  These guys have given a big chunk of their career backing up Brian Wilson.  I don't think it would be horning in on Brian at this point but a natural progression for the Brian Wilson Band.

My biggest disappointment in seeing the Beach Boys was the night I went to see them and Carl Wilson wasn't there.

It caught me off guard.  Like going to see the Beatles with John or Paul missing.

Carl was off doing his solo project.  On the other hand, a 300 plus pound Brian in stretch pants was there looking much like he did on SNL.

[the captain]

I believe Jay was talking about the sidemen taking leads as a problem within the band, not in reference to what fans thought. I disagree, though--I'm sure that if any of the BBs wanted to take and were capable of taking a song that Baker or anyone else sang, he'd have been allowed to do it. Remember who's on the board of directors and who's a temporary, contract employee.

As for the fans' perspective, though, I doubt it mattered to much of anyone who isn't of the sort to post at places like this. For casual fans, the songs are the stars, and they'd be almost as happy to hear them in karaoke bars, on American Idol, by pro cover bands or by the likes of Billy Hinsche, Adrian Baker or anyone else. The Beach Boys weren't nearly the sort of personality/star-driven band to casual fans the way the Beatles were. Virtually anyone can name John, Paul, George and Ringo. Many people could identify them on sight. But if you showed pictures of the Beach Boys circa 1980 intermingled with random people to casual fans, I'd guess the only one people would recognize is Mike Love.

To conclude this typically lutherian long-winded post a bit more succinctly: I doubt it mattered much to anyone, inside or outside of the band.

[donald]

Dennis would be recognized as a Beach Boy to many, even if they didn't know which one.

I always had the impression that the band respected and treated the side men well.  They were always recognizing and mentioning, for example, even on record, Mike Meros or Ed Carter.    I saw Billy do Wipe Out once and the Crowd went wild.  Carl and Mike enjoyed the applause as much as Billy, it seemed.  (my memory says Billy, pretty sure thats who it was).  The band had fill ins and session players almost from the get-go, starting with Glen Campbell.
Not to mention the Al, then Dave, then Al switcheroo.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I heard that the Beach Boys died in a car wreck in November of 1966. They were all replaced by imposters and left hints in their following albums. If you look at the cover of Friends, hold it up side down to a mirror, then bang your head against a wall while stoned, you will find a message saying the Beach Boys are dead.

I've lost it.

[Jay]

[quote author=Luther link=topic=5121.msg82440#msg82440 date=1203711010

To conclude this typically lutherian long-winded post a bit more succinctly: I doubt it mattered much to anyone, inside or outside of the band.
[/quote] That's exactly the point that I'm trying to make in this thread. It's the fact that The Beach Boys themselves didn't care enough, that bugs me. When I watch the 1991 Japanese broadcast, it bugs me to see Carl just standing there smiling, not seeming to care that HE is the one who should be singing Don't Worry Baby. It's not about members of the BB's backing band singing lead. It's the fact that Carl, Al, Bruce and Mike didn't care enough to stop it from happening. I think THAT hurt the group more, as a whole.

[Aegir]

Don't Worry Baby is Brian's song. Adrian singing it is just as legitimate as Carl, if not more so, because with Adrian singing lead Carl sings his original background part.

[Cam Mott]

I think it is just because all bands have seasons.

[MBE]

I think it is just because all bands have seasons.

There is truth in that, I guess what get's me frusterated is something like the fall 1993 tour that shows that they COULD still be a great band. It's just very rare that they were all that engaged by then.

Speaking of that not counting the 1993 shows what does everyone think of as the last great tour?

Would it be 12-73 which were the last shows with Dennis in great voice, Blondie still present, and more newer songs then old?

Maybe Ricky's last tour in November 1974?

Would it be the 75 Chicago team up?

Perhaps it would be the summer of the 1976 which was the last time Dennis played consistently sober.

Maybe you can even stretch to the intiall shows in 1982 where Carl came back.



I vote for

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Ehhh...you're vote got cut out!

[Quincy]

What ever year...you had to be there...and I was

[Quincy]

A side note.. I saw them in 73 on a bill with Linda Ronstant..and Loggins and Messina..and when they were introduced.. they said Carl Wilson and Al Jardine were playing

[the captain]

I think it is just because all bands have seasons.

I agree whole-heartedly. It didn't matter that Adrian sang a lead because that band wasn't anything more than a collection of feel-good oldies that those audience members could hear and sing along to. Their time of being vital and creative was long gone. Do you go to a Count Basie Band concert today (yes, they still exist) and complain who takes the long-since deceased Basie's would-be piano solos?  No, if you go, it's because that music has established itself within you to the point that you think it would be a good concert experience. Most of the Beach Boys may have been alive in the 80s, but it didn't matter to the casual fan anyway. Foskett, Baker, Wilson or Jardine--all the same, just so long as it was a chance to wear ugly Hawaiian shirts and sing along to songs they knew. The almost pure nostalgia of MIU on--or certainly KTSA on--ends one aspect of the band and begins another. There was nothing left to kill of the band by the instance you're (Jay) referring to. That's why it didn't matter. It might be unseemly to kick a corpse, but the corpse won't feel it.

[Quincy]

Right on!!

[Wilsonista]

I think it is just because all bands have seasons.

 It might be unseemly to kick a corpse, but the corpse won't feel it.

That's one of the greatest lines I've ever read. 

[Beach Boy]

I think it is just because all bands have seasons.

There is truth in that, I guess what get's me frusterated is something like the fall 1993 tour that shows that they COULD still be a great band. It's just very rare that they were all that engaged by then.

Speaking of that not counting the 1993 shows what does everyone think of as the last great tour?

Would it be 12-73 which were the last shows with Dennis in great voice, Blondie still present, and more newer songs then old?

Maybe Ricky's last tour in November 1974?

Would it be the 75 Chicago team up?

Perhaps it would be the summer of the 1976 which was the last time Dennis played consistently sober.

Maybe you can even stretch to the intiall shows in 1982 where Carl came back.



I vote for

1980. They still cared for their music and didn't include surf and car medleys. Played some new songs and some rare too.

[Quincy]

Custer..would say so

[Sheriff John Stone]

Maybe I'm ignorant or getting sentimental again, but I don't think the band was EVER "killed" or dead. Yes, they had their rough spots, but then they would recover and show some spark.

They were good in 1975-76, bad in 1977-78. Recovered in 1979-80, were disasterous (when Carl left) in 1981-82. They cleaned up their act when Carl returned, then coasted.
There were some highlights in the late 80's and early 90's.

I viewed the additions of Foskett, Baker, M. Jardine, etc. as necessary because they needed someone to sing Brian's part, so they could sing their original parts. It was as simple as that. I don't think it was copping out.

Off the top of my head, I can think of moments when they sounded quite good. The 1976 NBC-TV special (I'm seeing Dennis pounding on "Sloop John B"), the 1979 Midnight Special, of course 1980's Knebworth (that concert rocked), the above referred Japan concert wasn't that bad, and we have those early 90's acoustic sets.

Were there times when they simply showed up and put in their time? Absolutely. But I believe that was more obvious because of their lack of a stage "show". Groups like Kiss and others could have an off night, but the theatrics would pull them through and you'd never know it. When Mike (and others?) tried to infuse something into the show, he was criticized for it.

You might not have always liked the Beach Boys' "band", but I don't think they were ever killed.

[the captain]

I'm just reading the book "Frank Zappa: The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play," by Ben Watson. (I know, only 15 years after it was published...I'm quick on these things; and don't worry, I'll get to the relevant point shortly.) He has a line in the book--about the break-up of the Mothers of Invention in 1969 that goes along the lines of what I was thinking earlier about the Beach Boys' non-break-up. That line is:

"Those who proclaim Zappa 'finished' after that are asking for something no professional musician can deliver: the long-term perpetuation of a historical moment." Watson says Zappa moved on, for better or worse, "Rather than circulating a fraudulent husk in the usual manner..." (Watson, p.67)

Bring the cheerleaders to the stage, boys, it's time for their big number!