"Brian Wilson talks with and about spring"

[Sheriff John Stone]

Like most of Brian's behavior, his involvement with Spring is also contradictory.

Brian wanted to work with artists other than the Beach Boys. He wanted to produce outside acts. Did he want to be like Phil Spector and produce his wife? Marilyn=Ronnie? Brian wanted to stretch out musically.

So what did he do with Spring? If you look at the actual amount of time that Brian spent on the Spring album, did it amount to a couple of hours? Days? A week or two maybe? What was his actual contribution? I read that David Sandler did the overwhelming amount of work. Is "Everybody", "Tennessee Waltz", and some of the other covers stretching out? "Sweet Mountain" could be I guess. BTW, did David Sandler have any further affiliation with BW/BB after Spring?

[Daniel S.]

Sweet Mountain sounds exactly like a Love You song. I guess that record was the beginning of him heading in that synthesizer direction. Actually Cool Cool Water, from Sunflower (not Love to Say Da Da from Smile), could be the beginning of the Love You mindset.

[MBE]

I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

Did Brian ever elaborate why he didn't want "Surf's Up" released? But he sang on it (the 1970-71 recording) didn't he?

He equated it to Fire somehow. This is what Mr. Desper told me

[MBE]

According to Desper's book and Brian telling me himself he and the Beach Boysworked together well in the studio at least through 1970. I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

yet obne can't discount the fact that he was, as early as 1963 bailing out on touring. And he was also doing stuff with the Honeys, Survivors and other outside artists.  I know Bob Hanes has suggested that Brian never really wanted his family in what he considered to be his group and looking  at what he was doing in 63, it's kind of hard to refute that. As to why he started out w/ the BB?  Maybe it was another instance of following Spector's lead. After all Phil had started out as a performer/recording artist before he got going as a producer.

RobMac I hope my reply is taken in the spirit in which it's given. Further  I hope I don't sound combative in going against what you say but I do have to respectfully disagree with the Brian could have done it alone view.

Before the So Tough sessions he never devoted more time to an outside project then the Beach Boys. I think he did want to pursue the Spector path but I don't think that means he didn't want to be a performer. As far as 1963-65 goes as far as the others musical input goes nobody can deny now that they weren't contributing in the studio. That was a falsehood that I feel was furthered by those who wanted to marginalize the others. Jon Stebbins, Alan Boyd, Andrew Doe, have all done their research and it goes very against that myth. Even Dave contributed greatly as we can now see.

There is no statement he made until about 1988 that even half indicated that he wanted to leave. If you read interviews until that time, he goes out of his way to say how happy is with the others talents. One example is in the 1981 Les Chan tape. He remarks that he thinks going solo is a bad idea and that he likes being in the Beach Boys feeling something is lost otherwise. Further through 1970-71 he also says how much he enjoys working with them.  If you read many of his Teen Set interviews from 1964-65 he says in one that he couldn't have a better group of people to work with. In the Pet Sounds, Smile, Friends, and Sunflower era interviews he never once mentions anything about wanting to be without the group, and often mentions how important the Beach Boys are to the whole process. It is only in the 1973 interview with Record World that he first voices discontent with their direction. During the Brian Is Back phase he ran hot and cold sometimes in his comments, but the KTSA and MIU docs show him having a lot fun interacting with the others, and interviews with Pete Fornatlle and others are very pro Beach Boys. I need not repeat my opinion that Leaf, Landy, and  Melinda all made the situation worse over the years. That's highly contentious but nobody would say they were interested in Brian and the Beach Boys being a team. Even now I never saw him as happy in recent years. as he was on the rooftop in 2006. Ten years ago when the show was only paint by numbers I could have never thought this but Having seen Mike and Bruce more then capably do a creatively challenging show like they did with the Chicago Pops orchestra, I find it very sad that ego's aren't put aside so they could reunite. The remaining Beach Boys could do a great last tour or show that I think would be fullfiling in a way that none of the solo ventures ever could be.

[MBE]

Like most of Brian's behavior, his involvement with Spring is also contradictory.

Brian wanted to work with artists other than the Beach Boys. He wanted to produce outside acts. Did he want to be like Phil Spector and produce his wife? Marilyn=Ronnie? Brian wanted to stretch out musically.

So what did he do with Spring? If you look at the actual amount of time that Brian spent on the Spring album, did it amount to a couple of hours? Days? A week or two maybe? What was his actual contribution? I read that David Sandler did the overwhelming amount of work. Is "Everybody", "Tennessee Waltz", and some of the other covers stretching out? "Sweet Mountain" could be I guess. BTW, did David Sandler have any further affiliation with BW/BB after Spring?

In 1971 he could and did get a tremendous amount of work done in a very short amount of time. While the particpents stories do clash a little as far as how much Brian was there, that he had a big impact is in all the accounts. I don't think he constantly supervised or did too many mixes, he did arrange more then half of the album. Vocally and instrumentally he is certainly there far more then he was for Holland and So Tough. I don't think there were any songs he did nothing on. In other words he was fairly nonexistent on the mechanical end but essential creatively to what the album ended up sounding like.

[jmc]

Regarding Brian's mental state during the 67-72 period, I wonder how things might have been different if the Beach Boys (the other guys) were successful in terms of sales (more top 10 hits) during that period without him as "The Writer and Producer". 

I think one thing that probably affected him was that after he stopped being the leader or main creative force in the group post Smile, they weren't successful in terms of sales.  Did that put additional pressure on him? Guilt?  Or, would he have felt less pressure and maybe a bit more at ease mentally if they were successful.  Meaning they could all work together as a team "successfully" and not have feelings of  say..."Brian gets all the credit......." or "look guys we can't get a hit without Brian, come on Brian get in here and help..." floating around the studio.

Maybe not, but in general, I've always wondered how Brian would have reacted if the Boys were successful after his success as leader.  My guess is a bit of relief.  Curious to know how others feel.

[Wilsonista]

According to Desper's book and Brian telling me himself he and the Beach Boysworked together well in the studio at least through 1970. I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

yet obne can't discount the fact that he was, as early as 1963 bailing out on touring. And he was also doing stuff with the Honeys, Survivors and other outside artists.  I know Bob Hanes has suggested that Brian never really wanted his family in what he considered to be his group and looking  at what he was doing in 63, it's kind of hard to refute that. As to why he started out w/ the BB?  Maybe it was another instance of following Spector's lead. After all Phil had started out as a performer/recording artist before he got going as a producer.

RobMac I hope my reply is taken in the spirit in which it's given. Further  I hope I don't sound combative in going against what you say but I do have to respectfully disagree with the Brian could have done it alone view.

No offense taken. In fact I don't think I was really that clear. The issue really wasn't whether Brian could do it alone (I agree wholeheartedly with you that he couldn't) but whether he wanted to do it alone with the "talent" being interchangeable a la Phil Spector.  I really shouldn't speak for Bob, but that particular theory was put forth by one of  Brian's Hawthorne-era friends.

[carl r]

sorry to set the thread back so much, but i am blown away by "sweet mountain" which sounds like it could have been recorded last week.

[Sheriff John Stone]

During the Brian Is Back phase he ran hot and cold sometimes in his comments, but the KTSA and MIU docs show him having a lot fun interacting with the others, and interviews with Pete Fornatlle and others are very pro Beach Boys. I need not repeat my opinion that Leaf, Landy, and  Melinda all made the situation worse over the years. That's highly contentious but nobody would say they were interested in Brian and the Beach Boys being a team. Even now I never saw him as happy in recent years. as he was on the rooftop in 2006. Ten years ago when the show was only paint by numbers I could have never thought this but Having seen Mike and Bruce more then capably do a creatively challenging show like they did with the Chicago Pops orchestra, I find it very sad that ego's aren't put aside so they could reunite. The remaining Beach Boys could do a great last tour or show that I think would be fullfiling in a way that none of the solo ventures ever could be.

Very well put, and, needless to say, I agree with you.

While I'm sure there are fans who have enjoyed Brian's solo music over the last twenty years, I have this sad feeling that numerous opportunities were missed - for new Beach Boys' music and for new Beach Boys' happiness.

Whether Brian is really happy with his "choice" to be a solo artist, I honestly waiver on the subject. Because of the fine individuals and musicians he works with in his band, you would think he would be happy. But when it comes to the music - the actual NEW music that Brian has recorded - I often get the feeling that he could take it or leave it.

[MBE]

According to Desper's book and Brian telling me himself he and the Beach Boysworked together well in the studio at least through 1970. I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

yet obne can't discount the fact that he was, as early as 1963 bailing out on touring. And he was also doing stuff with the Honeys, Survivors and other outside artists.  I know Bob Hanes has suggested that Brian never really wanted his family in what he considered to be his group and looking  at what he was doing in 63, it's kind of hard to refute that. As to why he started out w/ the BB?  Maybe it was another instance of following Spector's lead. After all Phil had started out as a performer/recording artist before he got going as a producer.

RobMac I hope my reply is taken in the spirit in which it's given. Further  I hope I don't sound combative in going against what you say but I do have to respectfully disagree with the Brian could have done it alone view.

No offense taken. In fact I don't think I was really that clear. The issue really wasn't whether Brian could do it alone (I agree wholeheartedly with you that he couldn't) but whether he wanted to do it alone with the "talent" being interchangeable a la Phil Spector.  I really shouldn't speak for Bob, but that particular theory was put forth by one of  Brian's Hawthorne-era friends.

Thanks for reading my post. I guess I that a friend of Brian's from high school would remember Carl and Dennis as the kids they were then, not the creative artists they would become. Yet even in 1961 Dennis provided the Surfin theme, Mike provided solid lyrics, and Carl provided the Chuck Berry licks that defined the early records. It was Brian who was able to put it all together and I don't think anyone else could have creatively pooled that talent so well. Of course his musical and vocal ability's showed great promise and he was already one of a kind. The Spector thing is valid to a point, but I think Brian truly enjoyed working with the Beach Boys during their first decade.  I was just thinking about a John Tesh 1991 interview with Brian where he is very negitive about everything in his life but asked for one good memory he says working in the studio with the Beach Boys calling those great times.

[MBE]

During the Brian Is Back phase he ran hot and cold sometimes in his comments, but the KTSA and MIU docs show him having a lot fun interacting with the others, and interviews with Pete Fornatlle and others are very pro Beach Boys. I need not repeat my opinion that Leaf, Landy, and  Melinda all made the situation worse over the years. That's highly contentious but nobody would say they were interested in Brian and the Beach Boys being a team. Even now I never saw him as happy in recent years. as he was on the rooftop in 2006. Ten years ago when the show was only paint by numbers I could have never thought this but Having seen Mike and Bruce more then capably do a creatively challenging show like they did with the Chicago Pops orchestra, I find it very sad that ego's aren't put aside so they could reunite. The remaining Beach Boys could do a great last tour or show that I think would be fullfiling in a way that none of the solo ventures ever could be.

Very well put, and, needless to say, I agree with you.

While I'm sure there are fans who have enjoyed Brian's solo music over the last twenty years, I have this sad feeling that numerous opportunities were missed - for new Beach Boys' music and for new Beach Boys' happiness.

Whether Brian is really happy with his "choice" to be a solo artist, I honestly waiver on the subject. Because of the fine individuals and musicians he works with in his band, you would think he would be happy. But when it comes to the music - the actual NEW music that Brian has recorded - I often get the feeling that he could take it or leave it.

That's interesting to think about. I waiver too about it. I think Brian's solo music improved after he got the current band together, though I do like 66 percent of the first one. Yet Brian sang with such passion before and I miss that. The 1995 GIOMH demo has it, the 1981 Oh Lord has it, but I don't hear it often. True most of his solo work isn't as route as say She Says That She Needs Me,  but very liitle of it is as commited as Love and Mercy. I find it sad that, with exceptions like the 1993 tour, Somwhere Near Japan, and the Paley sessions  the Beach Boys stage, television, and studio work from 1984-1997 was so cheesy but it was those glimpses that tell me that if relations with Brian had been better and egos were put on hold they could have still been great. With Carl and of course Dennis gone it cannot be the same, but if all the elements came together it could still be amazing.

P.S. to carl l: I agree strongly with you about Sweet Mountain 

[RONDEMON]

Sweet Mountain is such a great and creepy song.
I still think Desper was the boys' best producer, I really wish he recorded the later stuff as well, as the early 70's was their best time as a collaborative group.
The sounds are so dry, full, and clear.

[MBE]

Sweet Mountain is such a great and creepy song.
I still think Desper was the boys' best producer, I really wish he recorded the later stuff as well, as the early 70's was their best time as a collaborative group.
The sounds are so dry, full, and clear.

Well he was the engineer more then producer (though he had sizable input)  but I agree.

[carl r]

On the wider subject of Brian in this period, '71 or '72, maybe we shouldn't look at this in terms of "what was wrong with Brian" as affecting the music itself.  It's been said that every band has about 7 years before a kind of creative rot sinks in. This seems to be the pattern of the majority of 60s bands. Those which soldier on or who have sporadic comebacks often don't have decent new music to offer as they've worked through he combinations. Solo artists maybe can avoid this as they choose their writing partners and have less obligation. Carl and Dennis sustained the Beach Boys during much of the 70s but I suspect their versions had run their course by the end of the decade, Lovester or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect, aside from his illness, Brian felt he had "worked through" the Beach Boys by '73 and wanted to move on. The remarkable thing was how he did come back for "Love You" - even if it was a solo album forced out of him with BB help.

[MBE]

Well by the end of 1973 I think Brian had given up basically on life. Earlier in the year he made it clear that American Spring has been his main focus for two years. Which is why (along with how sporadically he was involved with So Tough and Holland) I think the middle of 1971 was a turning point as to how he saw himself career wise.

As to the seven year theory, I think it's interesting. With all the bands or singers I like I do have a definite time frame of what I think their prime was. For me The Beach Boys from 1963-73 were them at their best. Some artists go through what I consider several peaks. Take Elvis, he certainly had a period in the mid sixties where his career went off track but he made a full comeback creatively. Dylan too had a period in the 80's where he was not doing memorable material but over the last ten years he compositionally (if not vocally) is back on top form.

I suppose some would look at Love You and say it was a return to form for the Beach Boys, but to my ears it wasn't due to the vocals, lyrics, production etc. Yet if your talking about Brian's commitment in 1976-77 up to M.I.U, he was very commited at least as a recording artist. As for how that relates to the group, the 15 Big Ones sessions where very group like ( the last ones that really were for the original band) but the Love You and Adult Child sessions (which both had a much more interested Brian) were more or less solo with a degree of help from his brothers. I don't think he saw himself as a solo recording artist, or not part of the Beach Boys during that time, but obviously the group harmony that had existed over their first decade was gone and this was reflected in how the sessions were conducted.  In other words Love You was a Wilson album, M.I.U. was a Love/Jardine album for which Brian was active but less creatively involved.

[Smilin Ed H]

Murry's death?!

[MBE]

Yes that's what I was talking about.