gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680598 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 08:02:23 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The romance of insanity and self-desctruction in artists  (Read 9355 times)
the captain
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7255


View Profile
« on: January 28, 2006, 08:07:54 AM »

While discussing Brian vs. the other Beach Boys' contributions in another thread, I noted that much of my initial attraction to the Beach Boys as a twenty-year-old (after spending the past dozen or so as an avid hater of what I wrongly saw as a dopey surf group who ripped off Chuck Berry tunes and sang out of tune) was because of the Brian Wilson myth: insane genious, recluse, unfinished masterpiece.

In college I did a story about the same general theme among serious musicians (I don't like to say "classical," since that's a period, not a genre, but that is what I mean here), including the public or writers sometimes assigning either insanity or dark, mystical nature to people like Mozart, Paganini, etc.

And even now, those musicians who have teetered on the brink (or gone over) are often focused on by certain groups of critics and fans. Daniel Johnston to Skip Spence to Syd Barrett to...ad infinitum.

What is the fascination with the image of tortured genius, do you think? Do you have other examples that are interesting?
Logged

Demon-Fighting Genius; Patronizing Twaddler; Argumentative, Sanctimonious Prick; Sensationalist Dullard; and Douche who (occasionally to rarely) puts songs here.

No interest in your assorted grudges and nonsense.
Chance
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2006, 10:10:44 AM »

Ian Curtis, Kurt Cobain, Peter Green, Jandek, Nick Drake, Robert Johnson, a bit of Brian Jones maybe.

Excellent topic, I think about this myself from time to time. Let me come back with some thoughts later. I'm at work, and it's a busy day.

One thing that I believe is true, I think creativity is an outlet, a safety valve, a means of contact, for people who can't relate or interact with other people in normal, natural circumstances. It's therapy. Part of what draws these folks to creative expression, and part of why some excel at it, is because for them it's the one way they can reach the world and show who they are. I'm not saying these are the only people drawn to the arts of course, or that all artists can be described as such, but I think it's a considerable factor. I believe to some extent, a sense of alienation, isolation, being different, actually fosters creativity. You need to get it out of you, you need to find a release.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 11:04:02 AM by Chance » Logged
the captain
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7255


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2006, 12:29:09 PM »

Glad one person liked my topic...

 Undecided
Logged

Demon-Fighting Genius; Patronizing Twaddler; Argumentative, Sanctimonious Prick; Sensationalist Dullard; and Douche who (occasionally to rarely) puts songs here.

No interest in your assorted grudges and nonsense.
Jason
Guest
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2006, 12:32:34 PM »

I think all humans are attracted to the vulnerability inherent in the art of those who have "problems". It just piques our interest, but I don't think anyone could really explain why. Maybe we're sadistic in a certain way over these issues.
Logged
Chance
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2006, 01:16:01 PM »

Glad one person liked my topic...

 Undecided
Things are always kinda quiet here on the weekend, it'll pick up a bit on Monday.
Logged
SurferGirl7
Guest
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2006, 05:54:18 PM »

Quote
What is the fascination with the image of tortured genius, do you think? Do you have other examples that are interesting?
Quote


I think all of us in the end have the gifts of pathos. Some feel that caring about this music, they are helping out the person in general. Some feel that getting into them maybe they will "save" them from their issues and be the hero in the end. I keep thinking of Van Gogh. That after he died the issues in him, people felt as attracted to the person as to the paintings. People in the end want to relate to each other.
Logged
I. Spaceman
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2271

Revolution Never Again


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2006, 05:55:57 PM »

"Genius is pain" - John Lennon.

I couldn't agree more.
Logged

Nobody gives a sh*t about the Record Room
sugarandspice
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 217


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2006, 06:45:37 PM »

There is something exstreamly appealing in a person that  is tourted, and that is able to put that on to a record and touch people who otherwise might not be able to exspress themselves in that same manner..John Lennon, Kurt Cobain, good exsamples, of people that reached out and were able to wear their hearts on their sleeves, and for that people love them... Even if people arent attracted to  what their words are, after hearing their story and being able to realate..

Myself for exsample, I knew some of the beatles stuff about 6 years ago, not really my more then hard days night, help, etc.  My man turned me on to Plastic Ono Band, and Mother hit me like a ton of bricks I hadnt ever heard someone be able to communicate the pain that I was walking around with inside for years... Broke my heart into a 1000 peices, after that I beacame a John Lennon freak... (have a tattoo of the lryics to that song actually.)

xoxo suga
Logged
Chance
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2006, 07:11:32 PM »

Quote from: sugarandspice
I hadnt ever heard someone be able to communicate the pain that I was walking around with inside for years...
I think this is one reason Pet Sounds is so deeply loved, too, besides for the sheer beauty of the music. It's a "What am I doing? Where am I going? How will it turn out?" kind of record that everyone can't help but relate to. And you find comfort in knowing that you're not alone. I had a friend who went blind the year it came out, and when he heard it, he  became a lifelong Beach Boys disciple. He said it was the first time that he ever felt that someone knew what he was going through.
Logged
Boxer Monkey
Guest
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2006, 07:51:08 PM »

I really don't get the allure of Ian Curtis and the death-tripping cult that surrounds Joy Division. Or, rather, I *do* get it, but it sickens me. Here's an asshole who did nothing more than construct a platform via his body of work from which to hang himself, and it's so "romantic" that he foretold his death in "Love Will Tear Us Apart." There's nothing humanistic in that music; it's anti-human. f*** your nihilism; I don't need any cheerleading for my own suicidal thoughts.
Logged
Jeff Mason
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 259


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2006, 07:57:09 PM »

I have thought that "genius" and madness are close friends.  Genius is partially seeing the world through glasses that no one else can see with, and that loneliness itself is a type of madness in a way I think.  I know that when I feel alone, for instance, in my tastes (and I know thanks to you all I am not but it feels that way) I worry about myself, what is wrong with me.  And those who have the vision to see new horizons are often seeing those horizons because they are so very radically different from all those around them.  And being an outsider can drive you crazy at times.  My understanding was that Mozart managed to make it in general in day to day life but had some really bad moments -- and often that was when he made his best work.  I daresay that the same could be said for Brian.
Logged
sugarandspice
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 217


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2006, 07:58:13 PM »

Woa.. back the foda up.. Ian Crutis, (someone who never really lived up to their potential in music..)
Man people can speculate all they want as to wheter or not he used hanging himself as a way to lift himself to god like status... (I sense something deeper then that  only he knew..) Second, I have never felt like there is a death cult of people that flock to joy division... They are a fodain amazing band, there is no way to get around that..  And love will tear us apart is one of the best tunes of 1980..... An asshole, can you really make that call dood?  I mean merda the man had problems.  Problems that fodain hundreds of men are stricken with and it dont make them assholes... not at all  Hitler= asshole... And, when I hear love will tear us apart, I hear someone that is having issues that most people encounter in a relationship... I have exserpienced those same feelings.. And you hafta addmitt the music (lwtua) is sooooo upbeat to that tune it hurts....

xoxoxo
suga
« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 09:50:45 PM by sugarandspice » Logged
al
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 227

Home again Home again jiggety jig...


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2006, 12:48:19 PM »

I really don't get the allure of Ian Curtis and the death-tripping cult that surrounds Joy Division. Or, rather, I *do* get it, but it sickens me. Here's an asshole who did nothing more than construct a platform via his body of work from which to hang himself, and it's so "romantic" that he foretold his death in "Love Will Tear Us Apart." There's nothing humanistic in that music; it's anti-human. foda your nihilism; I don't need any cheerleading for my own suicidal thoughts.

The thing is, Ian Curtis hung himself because he was desperate, unhappy and had had enough. The last thing he was thinking about was creating a legend. Joy Division at the time were only NME-reader popular - the first album had got good reviews but they were still making very little money, he had a wife and kid to support and had just found himslef a Belgium lover to further complicate things.

Joy Division's music IS humanistic, but it is experimental, bleak and savage. He was made a legend in death through the NME and the rest of the UK music press, but the reality, like Cobain is of someone who got what he wanted (to a much lesser extent - Nirvana were MUCH bigger) and then found he didn't want it after all.

What inspires artists, writers, musicians etc and what makes them unique IS a view of life that is skewed sidewise from the mainstream. Living there is not easy however, you have to take what is thrown at you for being different, and many are not well equipped to deal with the problems that fame brings. For others the struggle is too much - Nick Drake wanted success but couldn't bring himself to get out there and push, and then couldn't handle the appalling state of limbo he found himself occupying.

THis is why Dylan has kept going where so many others have failed. He has adjusted to the fame issue by playing by his rules and his only.

I always think that there is no such thing as normal. If looked at by the rest of the world, we would all be classed as weird. It's how well you hide it that keeps you unnoticed!
Logged
cabinessence
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2006, 02:11:53 PM »

Good thread!

Not much to add on my part. I'm not surprised Ian Curtis did himself in, but the death cult aspect is extraneous to the appeal of the doomy music, imo, though the morbid posthumous appeal is fully to be expected given the elegant necrophila on the cover of Closer etc.

I love songs like Atrocity Exhibition and Love Will Tear Us Apart. The passionately alienated, numb, desperate persona-person voicing them is undeniably part of what makes them  so persuasive...and yet, had he not died, they'd still be just as powerful. Lou Reed never o.d.ed, he's almost sickeningly healthy acting these days (not that I believe he's a sane, well adjusted human being for even one moment, however much he pretends to be!), and yet Heroin and Venus in Furs are as exhilarating odes to self destruction and surrender to the void as they ever were.

I get nervous about revering the sickness as crucial to the creativity.  I admit the Nick Drake of Pink Moon, the Brian who composed-instigated  Day in the Life of a Tree or Till I Die radiated pathos, and miraculously sublimated their sorrow into  haunting music. There's no getting round that, though the preoccupation with both guys as bruised souls is a bit too much for me to take sometimes.

Elliott Smith is a case of an artist I'd really rather not have known the personal history of. He was and remained a dazzling pop tunesmith  and musician till the end. His music can stand on its own without the troubling/troubled life story as pathetic prop.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2006, 02:15:42 PM by cabinessence » Logged
I. Spaceman
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2271

Revolution Never Again


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2006, 02:14:00 PM »

Quote
His music can stand on its own without the troubling/troubled psychocadelay as pathetic prop.

True, but it's inescapable.

Or,
Layla vs. 461 Ocean Boulevard.

You know?
Logged

Nobody gives a sh*t about the Record Room
Boxer Monkey
Guest
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2006, 03:08:20 PM »

Great post, Alan. Maybe I was a bit harsh. But I can't help but feel that even if you have "had enough," it's not an excuse to take your own life. I know Curtis struggled with health problems, but the bleak outlook in his music -- and despondency is a part of the human condition; I accept that, and it's certainly valid in art -- coupled with his sad end is so devoid of anything positive that I find it difficult to rally round the cause.  Just not for me.
Logged
I. Spaceman
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2271

Revolution Never Again


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2006, 03:14:25 PM »

If anyone REALLY wants to get the cause and meaning behind Curtis's death, watch Werner Herzog's Stroszek, the film he was watching at the time of his suicide.
Logged

Nobody gives a sh*t about the Record Room
sugarandspice
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 217


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2006, 03:27:15 PM »

 Wasnt he listening to Iggy Pop  the idiot at the time as well?

xoxoxo
suga
Logged
cabinessence
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2006, 04:31:23 PM »

Quote
If anyone REALLY wants to get the cause and meaning behind Curtis's death, watch Werner Herzog's Stroszek, the film he was watching at the time of his suicide.

Don't idly mess around with this film, be careful! It could be a loaded gun waiting for you to put it to your temple!

Actually, seeing it again recently, I found it reassuringly sane, warm and humane although the world it portrays is anything but: it was Herzog's tremendous empathy (and humor) I responded to this time. Seeing it when it was  fairly new, and back to back with far more terrifying Herzog film of similar title Woyzek, I walked out of the theatre and found myself precipitated into an instant nervous breakdown (simmering on the backburner for a long time), as well as the path of an oncoming truck! Thank goodness someone pulled me out of the way.  The despair-component of the film resonated unexpectedly and rather dangerously for this unstable youth, so be careful!  Wink 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2006, 04:34:15 PM by cabinessence » Logged
sugarandspice
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 217


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2006, 05:04:37 PM »

 Is it about and alchohlic in germany?

just wondering if I have the right flick...

xoxo
suga
Logged
cabinessence
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 150


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2006, 05:20:43 PM »

Quote
Is it about and alchohlic in germany?

just wondering if I have the right flick...

It starts that way, but moves to Wisconsin on a weirdly beautiful roadtrip which ends kind of ominously.

I found Woyzek with Klaus Kinski much more painful to take, more obvious suicide-motivation-material, the tale of a perpetually humiliated 'good soldier' who takes his punishment like a man, pressure building till he finally explodes, a terrifying bummer of a spectacle to behold.
Logged
I. Spaceman
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2271

Revolution Never Again


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2006, 05:43:54 PM »

Brilliant summation, Cabin.
Logged

Nobody gives a sh*t about the Record Room
sugarandspice
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 217


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2006, 06:06:11 PM »

cool.. I am gonna hafta check this out
Logged
Aegir
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4680



View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2006, 05:39:30 AM »

Music is the disturbed person's insane thoughts being translated into sanity.

And only Werner Herzog can make a documentary about people spending hours putting out a fire only to reignite it at the end and call it science fiction.
Logged

Every time you spell Smile as SMiLE, an angel's wings are forcibly torn off its body.
donald
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2485



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2006, 12:20:32 PM »

I think it is the eternal appeal of the martyr.  He died for us.  For all of us poor lost tortured souls.  It elevates the cause.  Our pain has reached its apex by proxy and all we have to do is evoke the name of the martyr and others will know our suffering.


Cobain fans?

Personally I thought he suffered enough living with Courtney Love.
Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.679 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!