Great song - coulda been better!

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think the Beach boys would have benefited if they had allowed Dennis to include more of his songs on Beach Boys albums.

If only the band had given him support and if the public still actually appreciated the Beach Boys throughout this time.

"if they had allowed Dennis" ...... "if only the band had given him support"......"if the public still appreciated the Beach Boys throughout this time"......

I'm not so sure about those statements. Someone can correct me (Stebbins probably will), but didn't Dennis keep his song(s) off of Surf's Up because of a dispute about the tracking order of the songs? Was that the band's fault? Did Dennis SUPPORT the band on MIU? Or did he not contribute to the sessions because of a dispute with Mike and Al? They had to go into the can to find a song just to represent Dennis on the album, which they didn't have to do. Dennis also contributed very little to the KTSA sessions. Was this because of his "physical condition"? And, finally, on a recent thread (on this board?), Jon Stebbins said that in the 1976-1978 time frame, Dennis Wilson was the most popular Beach Boy. If that was true, maybe the public DID appreciate Dennis, at least in some way. Why wouldn't the group want to take advantage of this?

[thomasogg]

As has been mentioned before, I think people like Love You because it came right after 15 Big Ones and before that it had been 3 years since the latest Beach Boys album. Then look what came after, M.I.U. etc.. So it stands above all those other albums from 1976 onwards. Plus, although the lyrics are really weird in places, the songs are still great catchy songs and it was the last Beach Boys album that was one cohesive work. I think Dennis's songwriting talents are getting more recognition and most fans do recognise Denny's songwriting talents. Ask people on this board if they like POB? I wonder what percentage will say that they like it? I'd say atleast 80%. I agree Denny deserves more recognition and that angers me sometimes too, but I get equally angry when people say Dennis blew Brian away creatively between 1969-1973 because Brian collapsed after SMiLE and stayed in bed the whole time.

Brian still came up with great songs in that period, NOT just Dennis. Going from when Dennis started writing songs on Friends:
(Please correct me if Ive made an error)

== Friends ==
Brian had a hand in all songs except Little Bird (which used part of Child Is Father of The Man from SMiLE) and Be Still

Brian wins by far

== 20/20 ==
Brian (new): Do It Again, Time To Get Alone, I Went To Sleep (from Friends era - still after he had ''collapsed'')
Brian (old): Cabinessence, Our Prayer
Dennis: Be With Me, All I Want To Do, Never Learn Not To Love (not really written by Dennis)

Brian wins

== Sunflower ==
Brian: This Whole World, Add Some Music, All I Wanna Do, Our Sweet Love, Cool Cool Water, At My Window, Deidre
Dennis: Slip On Through, Forever, Its About Time, Got To Know The Woman

I still think Brian wins. Although he probably didn't help too much on Deirdre, the other songs he still wrote most of if I'm not mistaken?

== Surf's Up ==
Brian: Take A Load Off Your Feet, A Day In The Life of A Tree, Til I Die
Brian (old): Surf's Up
Dennis: No songs though of course he had "Lady", "WIBNTLA", "4th Of July" that remained unreleased

So Brian wins due to no Dennis songs which sadly don't count

== So Tough ==
Brian: You Need A Mess of Help, He Come Down, Marcella
Dennis: Cuddle Up, Make It Good

This is a close one but I would say Dennis

== Holland ==
Brian: Sail On Sailor, Funky Pretty
Dennis: Steamboat, Only With You

This is again a close one and I'm undecided as I love all four songs and it's hard to choose



Although I love Dennis's stuff I still think Brian came up with better stuff overall (whether new or old material...for example Til I Die had origins back in 68 if Im not mistaken but it was still around the time Dennis started writing songs).

The only time Dennis would surpass Brian I think is 1977 (POB and Love You)... while I love both albums POB is the better album in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I think if the band had allowed more creative freedom to Dennis then the band could have been WAY more successful (on a creative level) but equally the band missed out on some great Brian songs later on such as It's Over Now etc..
[/quote]


OK, several points can be argued with there methinks. Firstly, you seem to be scoring points almost solely on the basis of quantity over quality. Yeh, Brian had more writing credits than Dennis on 'Friends' and 'Sunflower', but is having his name attached to the likes of 'Transendental Meditation' and 'At My Window' really that great an achievement, to name but two underwhelming brian co-writes.. And sometimes his contributions didn't amount to all that much anyway, as you highlight with 'Deidre'. So I would therefore counter thus:

FRIENDS: Brian has ten writing credits to Dennis' five. On quantity clearly brian would win, but not the songs with his name attached on 'Friends' are great, whereas Dennis' two solo outings are terrific, a real breakthrough!

20/20: Ok, you can have 'Friends', but 20/20? Come on.. Of Brian's songs 2 are SMiLE left-overs and one is a Redwood left-over. Sad to say but Brian really was losing his mojo round about now, and occasional returns to form such as 'Do It Again' and 'Breakaway' only highlighted what was otherwise generally missing.. Dennis meanwhile was just finding HIS mojo. Both 'Be With Me' and 'Never Learn..' are brilliantly produced, weird, imaginative tracks, while 'All I Want To Do' is the kind of rocker the band really should have done more reguarly. And his out-take 'Mona Kanua' kicks serious ass!

SUNFLOWER: Again you seem to be claiming that because Brian's credited on more tracks that somehow means he 'wins'. Well, 'Deidre'? 'At My Window'? The ice-cream commercial theme tune that is 'Add Some Music..'? Brian was credited to as many misses on Sunflower as he was hits. Dennis' four songs meanwhile, two of which are undeniable stone-cold classics, are easily amongst the best tracks on the album.

SURF'S UP: No dennis songs so can't really be counted, as you say. However, note another oldie amongst Brian's credits. 'Til I Die' is of course amazing, but about now he was managing about one, occasionally two, genuinely decent songs per year.

C&TP: Along with 'All This Is That' Dennis' 2 tracks are the only ones on this album I really really care for, most of the rest of it too sloppily produced to be enjoyable. Marcella is an exception there, though the song is very much backwards looking.

HOLLAND: A genuine tie, not just between Dennis and Brian, but between all the band members, all of whom excell!

So there you go... Also worth noting is the unreleased tracks from Brian and Dennis during this period. See which you rate the better songs:

BRIAN: We're Together Again. Games Two Can Play. HELP Is On Its Way. I Just Got My Pay. Loop De Loop.

DENNIS: San Miguel. Carry Me Home. 4th Of July. Barbara. Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again. I'm Going Your Way.

Your honour, I rest my case...

(PS Very good Luther. Touche!)

[mikeyj]

OK, several points can be argued with there methinks. Firstly, you seem to be scoring points almost solely on the basis of quantity over quality. Yeh, Brian had more writing credits than Dennis on 'Friends' and 'Sunflower', but is having his name attached to the likes of 'Transendental Meditation' and 'At My Window' really that great an achievement, to name but two underwhelming brian co-writes.. And sometimes his contributions didn't amount to all that much anyway, as you highlight with 'Deidre'. So I would therefore counter thus:

FRIENDS: Brian has ten writing credits to Dennis' five. On quantity clearly brian would win, but not the songs with his name attached on 'Friends' are great, whereas Dennis' two solo outings are terrific, a real breakthrough!

20/20: Ok, you can have 'Friends', but 20/20? Come on.. Of Brian's songs 2 are SMiLE left-overs and one is a Redwood left-over. Sad to say but Brian really was losing his mojo round about now, and occasional returns to form such as 'Do It Again' and 'Breakaway' only highlighted what was otherwise generally missing.. Dennis meanwhile was just finding HIS mojo. Both 'Be With Me' and 'Never Learn..' are brilliantly produced, weird, imaginative tracks, while 'All I Want To Do' is the kind of rocker the band really should have done more reguarly. And his out-take 'Mona Kanua' kicks serious ass!

SUNFLOWER: Again you seem to be claiming that because Brian's credited on more tracks that somehow means he 'wins'. Well, 'Deidre'? 'At My Window'? The ice-cream commercial theme tune that is 'Add Some Music..'? Brian was credited to as many misses on Sunflower as he was hits. Dennis' four songs meanwhile, two of which are undeniable stone-cold classics, are easily amongst the best tracks on the album.

SURF'S UP: No dennis songs so can't really be counted, as you say. However, note another oldie amongst Brian's credits. 'Til I Die' is of course amazing, but about now he was managing about one, occasionally two, genuinely decent songs per year.

C&TP: Along with 'All This Is That' Dennis' 2 tracks are the only ones on this album I really really care for, most of the rest of it too sloppily produced to be enjoyable. Marcella is an exception there, though the song is very much backwards looking.

HOLLAND: A genuine tie, not just between Dennis and Brian, but between all the band members, all of whom excell!

So there you go... Also worth noting is the unreleased tracks from Brian and Dennis during this period. See which you rate the better songs:

BRIAN: We're Together Again. Games Two Can Play. HELP Is On Its Way. I Just Got My Pay. Loop De Loop.

DENNIS: San Miguel. Carry Me Home. 4th Of July. Barbara. Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again. I'm Going Your Way.

Your honour, I rest my case...

(PS Very good Luther. Touche!)

No I wasn't scoring points on the basis of quantity over quality.

Friends: I'm guessing that on tracks like Friends, When A Man Needs A Woman, Be Here In The Mornin', Denny's contributions are much the same as Brians on say Deirdre.. ie: not much, probably just lyrically whereas I'm guessing Brian had a fair bit to do musically on those tracks. But honestly on the basis of quality, Brian easily surpasses Dennis here. Okay, maby Transcendental Meditation is kind of crap, but so what? Brian had the idea to do Bull Sessions on Today!.. But that is one of the finest albums of all time.

20/20 - A Redwood leftover or not, its still a great song as is Do It Again. I went To Sleep is a decent enough tune as well.. Dennis only really wrote two songs on the album. Be With Me which is fantastic.. and All I Want To Do which I've never really dug to be honest. So I think Brian wins on this album (not by a mile but still wins).. And I'm not including outtakes.. because who knows, maby Bruce has some an album full of AMAZING songs 10 times better than God Only Knows hidden in the vaults that someone is yet to discover, but I'm sorry that doesn't count.

Sunflower: To be honest, Got To Know The Woman isn't all that crash hot. Not bad, but by no means great. Forever of course is great and Slip On Through & It's About Time are too. But I still think Brian wins. I would rate All I Wanna Do, This Whole World, Add Some Music, Our Sweet Love, Cool Cool Water all as fantastic tracks..Plus At My Window which is okay, but nothing great, except the tag.

Surf's Up: both agree due to no Dennis songs

C&TP: I agree Dennis wins. But two of Brians songs are still really good songs and the other one aint too bad either. But Dennis wins. Not on quantity as you keep suggesting but on quality.

Holland: We both agree on that one.

I'm not trying to disprove that Dennis made a fantastic contribution to the band. He was the fastest growing member of the band by far and without him, the albums would have been much worse off. But then again without Brian's contributions the albums would have been much worse off aswell.. All I was trying to say is that Brian made as much a contribution as Dennis, if not more.. Of course you aren't going to agree so I say lets just agree to disagree...

By the way, I don't think We're Together Again is even by Brian is it? Isn't it Ron Wilson?

[thomasogg]

OK, several points can be argued with there methinks. Firstly, you seem to be scoring points almost solely on the basis of quantity over quality. Yeh, Brian had more writing credits than Dennis on 'Friends' and 'Sunflower', but is having his name attached to the likes of 'Transendental Meditation' and 'At My Window' really that great an achievement, to name but two underwhelming brian co-writes.. And sometimes his contributions didn't amount to all that much anyway, as you highlight with 'Deidre'. So I would therefore counter thus:

FRIENDS: Brian has ten writing credits to Dennis' five. On quantity clearly brian would win, but not the songs with his name attached on 'Friends' are great, whereas Dennis' two solo outings are terrific, a real breakthrough!

20/20: Ok, you can have 'Friends', but 20/20? Come on.. Of Brian's songs 2 are SMiLE left-overs and one is a Redwood left-over. Sad to say but Brian really was losing his mojo round about now, and occasional returns to form such as 'Do It Again' and 'Breakaway' only highlighted what was otherwise generally missing.. Dennis meanwhile was just finding HIS mojo. Both 'Be With Me' and 'Never Learn..' are brilliantly produced, weird, imaginative tracks, while 'All I Want To Do' is the kind of rocker the band really should have done more reguarly. And his out-take 'Mona Kanua' kicks serious ass!

SUNFLOWER: Again you seem to be claiming that because Brian's credited on more tracks that somehow means he 'wins'. Well, 'Deidre'? 'At My Window'? The ice-cream commercial theme tune that is 'Add Some Music..'? Brian was credited to as many misses on Sunflower as he was hits. Dennis' four songs meanwhile, two of which are undeniable stone-cold classics, are easily amongst the best tracks on the album.

SURF'S UP: No dennis songs so can't really be counted, as you say. However, note another oldie amongst Brian's credits. 'Til I Die' is of course amazing, but about now he was managing about one, occasionally two, genuinely decent songs per year.

C&TP: Along with 'All This Is That' Dennis' 2 tracks are the only ones on this album I really really care for, most of the rest of it too sloppily produced to be enjoyable. Marcella is an exception there, though the song is very much backwards looking.

HOLLAND: A genuine tie, not just between Dennis and Brian, but between all the band members, all of whom excell!

So there you go... Also worth noting is the unreleased tracks from Brian and Dennis during this period. See which you rate the better songs:

BRIAN: We're Together Again. Games Two Can Play. HELP Is On Its Way. I Just Got My Pay. Loop De Loop.

DENNIS: San Miguel. Carry Me Home. 4th Of July. Barbara. Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again. I'm Going Your Way.

Your honour, I rest my case...

(PS Very good Luther. Touche!)

No I wasn't scoring points on the basis of quantity over quality.

Friends: I'm guessing that on tracks like Friends, When A Man Needs A Woman, Be Here In The Mornin', Denny's contributions are much the same as Brians on say Deirdre.. ie: not much, probably just lyrically whereas I'm guessing Brian had a fair bit to do musically on those tracks. But honestly on the basis of quality, Brian easily surpasses Dennis here. Okay, maby Transcendental Meditation is kind of crap, but so what? Brian had the idea to do Bull Sessions on Today!.. But that is one of the finest albums of all time.

20/20 - A Redwood leftover or not, its still a great song as is Do It Again. I went To Sleep is a decent enough tune as well.. Dennis only really wrote two songs on the album. Be With Me which is fantastic.. and All I Want To Do which I've never really dug to be honest. So I think Brian wins on this album (not by a mile but still wins).. And I'm not including outtakes.. because who knows, maby Bruce has some an album full of AMAZING songs 10 times better than God Only Knows hidden in the vaults that someone is yet to discover, but I'm sorry that doesn't count.

Sunflower: To be honest, Got To Know The Woman isn't all that crash hot. Not bad, but by no means great. Forever of course is great and Slip On Through & It's About Time are too. But I still think Brian wins. I would rate All I Wanna Do, This Whole World, Add Some Music, Our Sweet Love, Cool Cool Water all as fantastic tracks..Plus At My Window which is okay, but nothing great, except the tag.

Surf's Up: both agree due to no Dennis songs

C&TP: I agree Dennis wins. But two of Brians songs are still really good songs and the other one aint too bad either. But Dennis wins. Not on quantity as you keep suggesting but on quality.

Holland: We both agree on that one.

I'm not trying to disprove that Dennis made a fantastic contribution to the band. He was the fastest growing member of the band by far and without him, the albums would have been much worse off. But then again without Brian's contributions the albums would have been much worse off aswell.. All I was trying to say is that Brian made as much a contribution as Dennis, if not more.. Of course you aren't going to agree so I say lets just agree to disagree...

By the way, I don't think We're Together Again is even by Brian is it? Isn't it Ron Wilson?

Pretty certain it's Brian. Who's Ron Wilson?
Some fair points, but have to pull you up on one point: your assumption that Brian had more of a contribution on co-writes than Dennis - says who? Ok, so you could say that the past form of these two members would make you assume Brian contributed more, but then there was nothing prior to 'Friends' to ever suggest Dennis was a great songwriter either... With Brian's light just starting to dim and Dennis' just starting to glow at this stage I don't think we can assume anything really...

Oh, and Got To Know The Woman is bloody great! That chorus is something else....

[thomasogg]

Oh yeh, and re C&TP. You say 2 of Brian's songs are good and the third is ok. But what's the third you're refering too?

[the captain]

Pretty certain it's Brian. Who's Ron Wilson?

"We're Together Again" is credited to B. Wilson-R. Wilson

[mikeyj]

Oh yeh, and re C&TP. You say 2 of Brian's songs are good and the third is ok. But what's the third you're refering too?

He Come Down was the third. I love Marcella and You Need A Mess of Help.. of course this is all my opinion.. And like I said I do still think Dennis has the better songs on C&TP.

[Beach Boy]

"Passing Friend" is a nice song, but way too long.

[BananaLouie]

I'd say the whole Surfs Up album, man that could have been one truly great album! No Dennis songs and Mike and Al cheesy songs ruined it for me.

[Dancing Bear]

Every version of Vegetables.

When I listened to the Smiley Smile version (before the boot sand the box set), there was that incredible 'Smile' snippet in the end of the track, and I couldn't wait to listen to a whole track of that. Still waiting.

[thomasogg]

I'd say the whole Surfs Up album, man that could have been one truly great album! No Dennis songs and Mike and Al cheesy songs ruined it for me.

Agreed. Go back a few pages on this thread to see my suggested Surf's Up line-up - it could've been a masterpiece, rather than just a very good album! Oh, and sorry to mikeyj, but He Come Down is awful - the chorus is passable, but the rest? Yikes! Those lyrics, that never-ending, never-interesting stop-start bit in the middle that just sounds like nothing else other than just filling time coz they only had eight songs... (i'd always thought it was written by Mike, Al and Carl)

[BananaLouie]

I'd say the whole Surfs Up album, man that could have been one truly great album! No Dennis songs and Mike and Al cheesy songs ruined it for me.

Agreed. Go back a few pages on this thread to see my suggested Surf's Up line-up - it could've been a masterpiece, rather than just a very good album!

Some good points, I guess alot of political crap was starting to consume the band around the time of Surfs Up.  Mike and Al were demanding their shall I say less than adequate compositions be included on the album.  Brian's songs are above excellent as are Carl's, nothing from Dennis though, I guess the others didn't want Surfs Up being a Wilson dominated record and perhaps Dennis was saving his songs for the aborted solo album, who knows.

[thomasogg]

Of course by the time of LA Light Album, an almost entirely Wilson brothers offering, they didn't mind so much. Perhaps MIU had finally made 'em see where the real talent rested in the group... Though I somehow doubt it.

[mikeyj]

Oh, and sorry to mikeyj, but He Come Down is awful - the chorus is passable, but the rest? Yikes! Those lyrics, that never-ending, never-interesting stop-start bit in the middle that just sounds like nothing else other than just filling time coz they only had eight songs... (i'd always thought it was written by Mike, Al and Carl)

You have to remember that Brian wrote mainly MUSIC... Not words.. And so to did Dennis. In fact all the Wilson's were predominantly musicians above lyricists and they all had theyre collaborative partners. And I didn't see He Come Down was great, I just said okay, which I think it is.

[Dancing Bear]

Dennis withdrew his track(s) from "Surf's Up" by choice, because he had a disagreement with Carl.

It would be weird if the "Axis of Evil" had really blocked Dennis' tracks. It was a way better seller than Sunflower, why would they change their mind and let Dennis have 2 tracks in C&tP? 

[Beach Boy]

Oh, and sorry to mikeyj, but He Come Down is awful - the chorus is passable, but the rest? Yikes! Those lyrics, that never-ending, never-interesting stop-start bit in the middle that just sounds like nothing else other than just filling time coz they only had eight songs... (i'd always thought it was written by Mike, Al and Carl)

You have to remember that Brian wrote mainly MUSIC... Not words.. And so to did Dennis. In fact all the Wilson's were predominantly musicians above lyricists and they all had theyre collaborative partners. And I didn't see He Come Down was great, I just said okay, which I think it is.

"He Come Down" is a highlight for me.    Maybe a little bit too long.

BTW Another song that could have been a LOT better is H&V.

[thomasogg]

Dennis withdrew his track(s) from "Surf's Up" by choice, because he had a disagreement with Carl.

It would be weird if the "Axis of Evil" had really blocked Dennis' tracks. It was a way better seller than Sunflower, why would they change their mind and let Dennis have 2 tracks in C&tP? 

That wasn't the point...