The Beach Boys Band loses another band member.

[thomasogg]

I saw Paul McCartney live last year. Does that mean i've seen the Beatles?

It doesn't matter whether it makes tens of thousands, or even millions, of people happy - what's that got to do with anything?!?? So it's entertaining - that's great! But it's not the Beach Boys. No Brian. No Carl. No Dennis. No Al. How can that be the Beach Boys...? Your argument is meaningless....

[thomasogg]

One original member out of five - that ain't the Beach Boys, it's the Beach BOY. I thank you.

[the captain]

The thing is, thomasogg, that's just an opinion. And so it doesn't matter. It's an opinion that I personally share, but it's no more valid than any of the others' opinions. To me, a Wilsonless band isn't the Beach Boys. To the courts, it is.

As for the original members making it the band, that argument is pretty weak.  It isn't the original Beach Boys, but then neither was the group that recorded their best album, Pet Sounds.

After that, you get into personal preferences and lines drawn in the sand based on personal preferences and judgment calls. What if Carl and Dennis were in the band, but not Brian. Beach Boys? What about Carl, Dennis and Brian, but no Mike or Al or Bruce. Beach Boys? Al, Bruce and Mike. Beach Boys? Brian and Bruce. Beach Boys? David, Ricky, Blondie. The Captain (with or without Tenille), for that matter. It goes on ad infinitum, and it is equally meaningless.

They are the Beach Boys if they are legally the Beach Boys (which they are). It isn't your Beach Boys. It isn't my Beach Boys. But it's the Beach Boys.

[thomasogg]

Huh...? Look it up in ANY reference book, quiz book, article on the band, etc. anywhere... The Beach Boys: Brian, Carl and Dennis Wilson, Mike Love, and Al Jardine. The Fab Five. It ain't an opinion at all, that's who the Beach Boys were. They had Dave Marks and Bruce Johnson and a few members of the Flame occasionally, but the Beach Boys were the 3 Wilsons, their cousin Mike and their friend Al. These arguments claiming otherwise are very strained... It's like saying the Beatles weren't the Beatles coz they didn't have Pete Best or Stu Sutcliffe in the lineup. The core Beatles lineup was, and always will have been, Paul, John, George and Ringo - in exactly the same way that the core Beach Boys lineup was, and always will have been, Brian, Dennis,Carl, Mike and Al. They were the Beach Boys. Urgo, Mike and a bunch of unknown musicians isn't the Beach Boys. It's an entertaining tribute act fronted by the original lead vocalist.

[the captain]

You're wrong.

And it's ergo, not urgo.

[thomasogg]

No i'm not.

And i'm typing in a hurry at work, don't have time to check spelling. Rather admitting defeat when one has to resort to pointing out spelling mistakes no?

[the captain]

No, that was an added bonus. And I won't admit defeat because I'm not wrong. There's no denying that the most popular way to talk about the Beach Boys is three Wilsons, cousin Mike and friend Al. But the most popular things tend to be fucking stupid, and this is the same. The Beach Boys have been many different groups, and one being more known or more popular doesn't make it exclusive truth. You're more than welcome to hold the belief that a certain group of people is required to be the "true" Beach Boys in your head/heart/ears. But it isn't factually true.

[Awesoman]

The thing is, thomasogg, that's just an opinion. And so it doesn't matter. It's an opinion that I personally share, but it's no more valid than any of the others' opinions. To me, a Wilsonless band isn't the Beach Boys. To the courts, it is.

As for the original members making it the band, that argument is pretty weak.  It isn't the original Beach Boys, but then neither was the group that recorded their best album, Pet Sounds.

After that, you get into personal preferences and lines drawn in the sand based on personal preferences and judgment calls. What if Carl and Dennis were in the band, but not Brian. Beach Boys? What about Carl, Dennis and Brian, but no Mike or Al or Bruce. Beach Boys? Al, Bruce and Mike. Beach Boys? Brian and Bruce. Beach Boys? David, Ricky, Blondie. The Captain (with or without Tenille), for that matter. It goes on ad infinitum, and it is equally meaningless.

They are the Beach Boys if they are legally the Beach Boys (which they are). It isn't your Beach Boys. It isn't my Beach Boys. But it's the Beach Boys.

I'm a little lost here.  Are you saying that save for the legal permission to use the band name, you don't feel that Mike's group is the real deal?  If so, then everyone posting on this part of the thread is in agreement here.  So what exactly is your point?

[thomasogg]

Well if that's legally the Beach Boys all i can say is f*** the law!

And actually you're wrong - they ARE my Beach Boys. I got Bruce's freakin' head in my fridge.

[the captain]

I'm a little lost here.  Are you saying that save for the legal permission to use the band name, you don't feel that Mike's group is the real deal?  If so, then everyone posting on this part of the thread is in agreement here.  So what exactly is your point?

I am debating thomasogg on whether "the Beach Boys" is three Wilsons, a Love and a Jardine. In doing so, I admitted that in my heart, the band I consider the Beach Boys is long gone, not the legal entity that is the Beach Boys. But regardless of my, or his, thoughts, if a band is legally the Beach Boys, well, that band is the Beach Boys. And so have many other bands been the Beach Boys along the way. I hope that's clearer to you now.

[thomasogg]

My point however was thus: you stop ANY Beach Boys fan (or knowledgable music fan) in the street and ask 'em to name the members of the group known as the Beach Boys, they are gonna tell you: Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Mike Love, Al Jardine. Maybe they'd add Bruce. Then they'd probably tell you to go away and leave 'em alone. But anyway, the reason they'd name those people as the Beach Boys is because those people are the Beach Boys. Paul is a Beatle. Carl is a Beach Boy. Mike is a prick. It's like that - Uh! - and that's the way it is! You're not gonna get far in any pub quizzes realing off the names of the guys who play alongside Mike at present if the question-asker were to ask 'name the members of the Beach Boys'... 

[Awesoman]

Let me add one more thing:

The debate as what constitutes as what is the "real" Beach Boys is both an easy and difficult argument.  Difficult because the Beach Boys have had a revolving door of members since the very beginning.  Hell, they even had Glen Campbell in the group for awhile.  But on the other hand, the members who have been legally recognized as Beach Boys are the five original members: Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike and Al (I'm not quite sure how David Marks fits into this).  They are considered as authentic.  The bandmembers touring with Mike and Bruce these days are not actual members of the band; just members of the touring band. 

[thomasogg]

Although you could always argue with said question-asker, 'yeh well, that may be the case mate, however going by the law the current lineup of twenty five middle-aged blokes does actually consistute the official group members.....' And that's my point.

[thomasogg]

Glen Campbell was a stand-in, in much the same way that Eric Clapton played on 'While My Guitar Gently Weeps' without actually being a Beatle.

[Alex]

  For me the only members that matter are Mike, Bruce, Carl, Denny, Brian, and Al.  Anyone else is just "filler". 
[/quote]

What about Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar?

[thomasogg]

Ricky said, when asked what it was like being a Beach Boy, 'That's ridiculous, i'm not a Beach Boy, you know'. He then subsequently argued how, as it was such a close-knit band, no one from outside could ever really penetrate it - which is probably why both he and Blondie both eventually ended up quitting, as did Bruce before them. Now if Ricky, who wrote, sang and played on two albums, isn't a Beach Boy, then these gurning blokes currently playing alongside Mike sure as hell aren't...!
One final point: If Mike were sick one night next week and couldn't play but the band went on without him anyway, would THAT still be the Beach Boys? If so, that's ridiculous! If not, end of argument.

[Alex]

Ricky said, when asked what it was like being a Beach Boy, 'That's ridiculous, i'm not a Beach Boy, you know'. He then subsequently argued how, as it was such a close-knit band, no one from outside could ever really penetrate it - which is probably why both he and Blondie both eventually ended up quitting, as did Bruce before them. Now if Ricky, who wrote, sang and played on two albums, isn't a Beach Boy, then these gurning blokes currently playing alongside Mike sure as hell aren't...!
One final point: If Mike were sick one night next week and couldn't play but the band went on without him anyway, would THAT still be the Beach Boys? If so, that's ridiculous! If not, end of argument.

Blondie and Ricky will always be in "my" Beach Boys, even if they don't consider themselves BBs.

[Jon Stebbins]

What kills me in Thomasogg and many other people's arguments about who the REAL Beach Boys were is that they buy into the myth. Its like...well if Rolling Stone.com says its true and the average Beach Boy fan on the street then it must be. But that's overlooking the fact that Al wasn't even in the Beach Boys when they became a HIT ACT!! The Beach Boys that went from playing in front of 50 people to playing in front of 10,000, the Beach Boys who went from no record contract to having a solid string of hit LP's and singles, the Beach Boys that went from local to the biggest band in the U.S. was Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David Marks. Anyone who was actually engaged in this event in the context of the time and hasn't just bought into the pr spin that has subsequently been coughed out as fact knows I AM RIGHT. I bought the first 4 Lps as they came out, i heard the songs as they hit the radio...Al Jardine was not a part of any of that, except as an occasional behind the scenes fill-in for Brian and paid sideman. The Beach Boys who conquered America were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David. The five equal share holders of the Beach Boys franchise as they became succesful and famous were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David...this is the fact, this is the truth...and Thomasgogg you need to go and get an education, and then come back and tell us who's real and who isn't. The only way your argument holds water is if the Beach Boys didn't exist until they'd already had 4 hit LPs and a bunch of hit singles...if they didn't exist until 1964...but they did and they were already HUGE.

[Jon Stebbins]

I'm gonna say it again just to make sure anyone with a below average BB's IQ goes out and learns the facts and gets real. 1962 and 1963 were THE crucial years...without them the rest does not happen.

What kills me in Thomasogg and many other people's arguments about who the REAL Beach Boys were is that they buy into the myth. Its like...well if Rolling Stone.com says its true and the average Beach Boy fan on the street then it must be. But that's overlooking the fact that Al wasn't even in the Beach Boys when they became a HIT ACT!! The Beach Boys that went from playing in front of 50 people to playing in front of 10,000, the Beach Boys who went from no record contract to having a solid string of hit LP's and singles, the Beach Boys that went from local to the biggest band in the U.S. was Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David Marks. Anyone who was actually engaged in this event in the context of the time and hasn't just bought into the pr spin that has subsequently been coughed out as fact knows I AM RIGHT. I bought the first 4 Lps as they came out, i heard the songs as they hit the radio...Al Jardine was not a part of any of that, except as an occasional behind the scenes fill-in for Brian and paid sideman. The Beach Boys who conquered America were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David. The five equal share holders of the Beach Boys franchise as they became succesful and famous were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David...this is the fact, this is the truth...and Thomasgogg you need to go and get an education, and then come back and tell us who's real and who isn't. The only way your argument holds water is if the Beach Boys didn't exist until they'd already had 4 hit LPs and a bunch of hit singles...if they didn't exist until 1964...but they did and they were already HUGE.

[Aegir]

My girlfriend asked me the other day who was in the Beach Boys. Over the course of the next few hours, I told her everyone I could possibly remember being in the group that went out on stage every night, from Brian and Mike to David to Glen to Bruce to Ed Carter to Charles Lloyd to John Stamos to Adrian Baker to Christian Love.

If you stop the average "Beach Boys fan" on the street and ask them who the members are, they'll either say, "Uh, I don't know, some old guys... they still tour?" or "Brian Wilson."

If you stop a close-minded fool who happens to be familiar with the Beach Boys, you'll get the three Wilson brothers, Mike and Al.


If you stop a fanatic such as myself, you'll get the explanation in the first paragraph.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

Interesting related article I just came across:

http://www.northcoastjournal.com/101807/hum1018.html

It asks the question, who is  a real Animal?

[thomasogg]

I'm gonna say it again just to make sure anyone with a below average BB's IQ goes out and learns the facts and gets real. 1962 and 1963 were THE crucial years...without them the rest does not happen.

What kills me in Thomasogg and many other people's arguments about who the REAL Beach Boys were is that they buy into the myth. Its like...well if Rolling Stone.com says its true and the average Beach Boy fan on the street then it must be. But that's overlooking the fact that Al wasn't even in the Beach Boys when they became a HIT ACT!! The Beach Boys that went from playing in front of 50 people to playing in front of 10,000, the Beach Boys who went from no record contract to having a solid string of hit LP's and singles, the Beach Boys that went from local to the biggest band in the U.S. was Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David Marks. Anyone who was actually engaged in this event in the context of the time and hasn't just bought into the pr spin that has subsequently been coughed out as fact knows I AM RIGHT. I bought the first 4 Lps as they came out, i heard the songs as they hit the radio...Al Jardine was not a part of any of that, except as an occasional behind the scenes fill-in for Brian and paid sideman. The Beach Boys who conquered America were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David. The five equal share holders of the Beach Boys franchise as they became succesful and famous were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David...this is the fact, this is the truth...and Thomasgogg you need to go and get an education, and then come back and tell us who's real and who isn't. The only way your argument holds water is if the Beach Boys didn't exist until they'd already had 4 hit LPs and a bunch of hit singles...if they didn't exist until 1964...but they did and they were already HUGE.

Anyone heard of Pete Best?

[the captain]

Anyone heard of Pete Best?

The horse you're beating is long-since dead. Your argument is simply wrong. It is factually incorrect. Every time you bring up a point, it is either personal preference, popularity, general public's perception or some kind of "most important" list. But none of those things change facts of who was or is a band member.

Pete Best was a Beatle, by the way.

[Jon Stebbins]

I'm gonna say it again just to make sure anyone with a below average BB's IQ goes out and learns the facts and gets real. 1962 and 1963 were THE crucial years...without them the rest does not happen.

What kills me in Thomasogg and many other people's arguments about who the REAL Beach Boys were is that they buy into the myth. Its like...well if Rolling Stone.com says its true and the average Beach Boy fan on the street then it must be. But that's overlooking the fact that Al wasn't even in the Beach Boys when they became a HIT ACT!! The Beach Boys that went from playing in front of 50 people to playing in front of 10,000, the Beach Boys who went from no record contract to having a solid string of hit LP's and singles, the Beach Boys that went from local to the biggest band in the U.S. was Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David Marks. Anyone who was actually engaged in this event in the context of the time and hasn't just bought into the pr spin that has subsequently been coughed out as fact knows I AM RIGHT. I bought the first 4 Lps as they came out, i heard the songs as they hit the radio...Al Jardine was not a part of any of that, except as an occasional behind the scenes fill-in for Brian and paid sideman. The Beach Boys who conquered America were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David. The five equal share holders of the Beach Boys franchise as they became succesful and famous were Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike and David...this is the fact, this is the truth...and Thomasgogg you need to go and get an education, and then come back and tell us who's real and who isn't. The only way your argument holds water is if the Beach Boys didn't exist until they'd already had 4 hit LPs and a bunch of hit singles...if they didn't exist until 1964...but they did and they were already HUGE.

Anyone heard of Pete Best?

How many hit records did Pete Best play on? NONE   David Marks played on a whole bunch of them, some of the biggest ones the Beach Boys ever had. You need to wise up ...first this guy tells us the NEWS that Dennis' "third" wife Shawn Love has passed away "recently"...yeah four years ago! Now he's gonna tell us who the real members of the BB's are. You are in the presence of some of THE most educated BB's fans on earth...you need to get humble...or you are surely going to look like a fool.

[thomasogg]

Believe it or not, i don't generally follow the lives of ex-wives of dead band members... What can i say, I'm SUCH a square! Yes, if only i'd not failed my 'Beach Boy-ology' A Levels...
(Actually Al only didn't play on the first THREE BB albums, not the first four. He wasn't on the album sleeve, but he did play on the album).
This is, incidentally, meant to be a DISCUSSION, not a slanging match, Mr Stebbins. I think if you're getting THIS worked up over a chat about who was or wasn't in the Beach Boys then you need to go lie down or have a wank or something..
Anyway, i'm off to curl into a small humbled ball and rock backwards and forwards crying at my Beach Boys ignorance. If only i knew more.. If only i knew more.. Either that, or i might just go listen to 'Surf's Up'. Anyone know the exact time at which Jack Rieley was born?