Dennis Wilson solo recordings

[MBE]

I think Mike does get an unfair bashing at times, other times he deserves it. Yet I don't find the need to compare him to Brian or anyone else. If I like what Mike does I do, if I don't I don't. Same with Brian, same with Carl etc. Do I find the Wilson's to be more talented? Yes. Yet they made many bad choices that Mike didn't. I do think Mike shouldn't be treated with any more malice then the rest, and I also think Brian shouldn't get breaks not afforded to the others. Still why knock anyone or their opinion just to make this point? I think we all would do well to stay on focus and call things as we see them on each issue. The Beach Boys story is way to complex to be black and white on any of them. This is the main mistake people like Leaf made back in the 70's and it blew up in everyones face.

[the captain]

So, about Dennis Wilson's solo recordings...

[mikeyj]

Fair question, mikeyj, and it deserves an answer. I apologize for going off-topic, though.

Thanks for clarifying that Sheriff.. But I still say that it's always going to be like that. People are always going to choose favourites. I think you should just ignore it and don't get too hung up about it.

To be totally honest, I've heard Brian being criticised such as when people criticise Gettin In Over My Head (AGD especially) or songs like Smart Girls... and rightly so. I mean Mike has come up with some total crap (Summer of Love etc..) but so has Brian and I have seen people criticise them both.

[peerke]

Wouldn't it be better to start a new thread where the pro's and con's of Mike can be discussed?

[mikeyj]

Okay Bro...you just got me all churned up because that clip is like the grail for me. A live TV appearance of an acoustic version of Lady which is rendered beautifully(I have the audio)...I've seen the stills...DW looks great...so to have the moving color pictures would really make me happy. I thought you were torturing me for fun. Just FYI...The DW solo material is lurching towards a release with lots of stops and starts and strangeness...but its moving forward. 2008 will more than likely be the year. Thanks for the explanation.

By the way. I too have the audio of the Lady performance but on my version there is a bit where it cuts out part of the song. Is there a better version than that out there?

[the captain]

The song POB co-written with Mike is a 15 Big Ones leftover.

As I was just listening to the song "Pacific Ocean Blues," I was thinking how great it would have sounded with Beach Boys backing vocals. The bass vocal, in particular, makes it easy to imagine Mike singing "water, water."

So...Jon, when you say it is a leftover, do you know whether a recording was begun and/or completed during that era? Or was it just something they wrote at the time, but didn't pursue?

To me, this is another track (like "River Song" and a few others from POB) that fits into a natural progression after Holland.

[c-man]

The song POB co-written with Mike is a 15 Big Ones leftover.

As I was just listening to the song "Pacific Ocean Blues," I was thinking how great it would have sounded with Beach Boys backing vocals. The bass vocal, in particular, makes it easy to imagine Mike singing "water, water."

So...Jon, when you say it is a leftover, do you know whether a recording was begun and/or completed during that era? Or was it just something they wrote at the time, but didn't pursue?

To me, this is another track (like "River Song" and a few others from POB) that fits into a natural progression after Holland.

Jon may have more and better info to offer on this, but I thought I'd share what I've read, for what it's worth:  in his book, Brad Elliott indicates the song was recorded twice by Dennis in 1975 (at a February 12th session, and again late in the year).  In the Summer '82 issue of "Add Some Music", Brad writes "'Pacific Ocean Blue' existed only as an unfinished instrumental track prior to the sessions for 15 Big Ones.  During those sessions Dennis decided he wanted a cut on the album.  He asked Mike to write the lyrics, which he did, phoning them in from his home after only a few hours."  Brad doesn't say whether or not the Boys attempted vocals, just that the song was not included on 15 Big Ones.  Then around August or September '76, Dennis told Timothy White "Yesterday, I did a final version of 'Pacific Ocean Song' which I had cut several times".  So there may be three backing tracks laying around of that song. 

[the captain]

To be fair, it would have sounded terrible on 15BO (or 15BO would have sounded terrible around it, more precisely), very out of place. So I can understand them not using it. But it would have been nice to hear a full BBs version.

[Sheriff John Stone]

"Pacific Ocean Blue' existed only as an unfinished instrumental track prior to the sessions for 15 Big Ones.  During those sessions Dennis decided he wanted a cut on the album.  He asked Mike to write the lyrics, which he did, phoning them in from his home after only a few hours."

Thanks for posting that c-man. I never read that quote before. At the height of the Endless Summer/Spirit Of America craze when the band was "changing direction", when they had debated about recording oldies instead of "art", and when their lifestyles were beginning to take different paths, you would think Mike Love would be the last person that Dennis Wilson would call to write lyrics. Wow...

It's also interesting that Dennis titled the album after that song.

Oh, yeah, Luther, you're right. It would've been neat to hear a full BB's version of "Pacific Ocean Blues". Actually, when I first heard the song, I thought that WAS Mike Love singing that bass vocal part.

[Guy]

Jon, who were in the support band for Dennis' proposed tour? (Apart from Carl!!!!).

Which songs were in the set?

[mikeyj]

At the height of the Endless Summer/Spirit Of America craze when the band was "changing direction", when they had debated about recording oldies instead of "art", and when their lifestyles were beginning to take different paths, you would think Mike Love would be the last person that Dennis Wilson would call to write lyrics. Wow...

Not necessarilly.. I mean they had not long ago (meaning a few years previously) written "Only With You" and a few years before that "Sound of Free".

[Sheriff John Stone]

At the height of the Endless Summer/Spirit Of America craze when the band was "changing direction", when they had debated about recording oldies instead of "art", and when their lifestyles were beginning to take different paths, you would think Mike Love would be the last person that Dennis Wilson would call to write lyrics. Wow...

Not necessarilly.. I mean they had not long ago (meaning a few years previously) written "Only With You" and a few years before that "Sound of Free".

Still surprising, mikeyj. A few years previously, Mike was more "on the same page" with the group, especially on the albums Sunflower thru Holland. Amazingly, Mike could even come up with something like "Big Sur".

Now, a few years later (1976), Mike had regressed into an oldies mentality, going back to the "wontcha catch a ride in the fun, fun, sun" style of lyrics, fighting a one man battle to recapture the hit-making days of the group, putting money before art. I thought Dennis would've shied away from Mike. I'm shyin' away from you....I really like Pacific Ocean Blue(s). Dennis and Mike should've collaborated more often!   

[mikeyj]

Dennis and Mike should've collaborated more often!   

I agree with you on that. "Sound of Free", "Only With You" and "Pacific Ocean Blues" are all great songs, especially Only With You. That has always made me wonder, why on earth did Mike want to go back to the oldies? I mean Surf's Up from what I understand was when they started becoming a relevant band again. And then we had Holland and then it was around the 15 Big Ones era that they band started to play more oldies live as well as writing songs using the old 'forumla' (eg: It's OK) as well as covering old rock standards (eg: Rock And Roll Music). So okay, I understand they still made money from 15 Big Ones etc.. and were still a popular band but didn't Mike take any satisfaction when he helped write songs like "Only With You", "California Saga" etc... I mean I would certainly take pride in that I could write something as good as them. By no means the best songs by The Beach Boys but still fine efforts. I mean what made Mike want to go back to the old formula when the band was being recognised as the best live band in 74 in Rolling Stone Magazine (I think - or something like that anyway) and were clearing evolving creatively as well as being relevant again.

[c-man]

Because...the album sales for "Endless Summer" and "Spirit Of America" WAY outdid the sales for "Surf's Up" and "Holland", and they found that the more oldies they did, the bigger the crowds got.  See, their audience went from maybe 2,000 people who wanted to hear "Surf's Up" to 20,000 people who wanted to hear "Surfin' U.S.A.".  So when it came to recording new stuff, Mike was thinking like a business man (maybe encouraged in that mentality by his brother Steve, who managed the group at two different times in the mid-to-late '70s), and understood that they (a) needed to get Brian producing again, and (b) their new records needed to sound like their old records in order to be as successful as their old records.  'Course, it didn't quite happen that way, and couldn't, but it was wishful thinking on his part. 

[mikeyj]

Because...the album sales for "Endless Summer" and "Spirit Of America" WAY outdid the sales for "Surf's Up" and "Holland", and they found that the more oldies they did, the bigger the crowds got.  See, their audience went from maybe 2,000 people who wanted to hear "Surf's Up" to 20,000 people who wanted to hear "Surfin' U.S.A.".  So when it came to recording new stuff, Mike was thinking like a business man (maybe encouraged in that mentality by his brother Steve, who managed the group at two different times in the mid-to-late '70s), and understood that they (a) needed to get Brian producing again, and (b) their new records needed to sound like their old records in order to be as successful as their old records.  'Course, it didn't quite happen that way, and couldn't, but it was wishful thinking on his part. 

Well didn't POB outsell Love You... maby that shouldve been an indication to Mike and the rest of the group to get Dennis as a more influential creative force in the band. I'm sure Dennis could have written some better stuff than some of the crap on M.I.U. Album.

[c-man]

Because...the album sales for "Endless Summer" and "Spirit Of America" WAY outdid the sales for "Surf's Up" and "Holland", and they found that the more oldies they did, the bigger the crowds got.  See, their audience went from maybe 2,000 people who wanted to hear "Surf's Up" to 20,000 people who wanted to hear "Surfin' U.S.A.".  So when it came to recording new stuff, Mike was thinking like a business man (maybe encouraged in that mentality by his brother Steve, who managed the group at two different times in the mid-to-late '70s), and understood that they (a) needed to get Brian producing again, and (b) their new records needed to sound like their old records in order to be as successful as their old records.  'Course, it didn't quite happen that way, and couldn't, but it was wishful thinking on his part. 

Well didn't POB outsell Love You... maby that shouldve been an indication to Mike and the rest of the group to get Dennis as a more influential creative force in the band. I'm sure Dennis could have written some better stuff than some of the crap on M.I.U. Album.

Yes, but Dennis' mature, adult, and artful vision wouldn't have been within what Mike saw as "the formula" for success (Beach Boys success, anyway).  Also, Dennis' lifestyle ruled out any possibility of Mike encouraging him to take the creative reigns in the band.  If Dennis wrote simple, upbeat pop songs, was free of any self-destructive vices, and got along well with Mike, then things might've been different.  But then he wouldn't have been Dennis! 

[mikeyj]

Because...the album sales for "Endless Summer" and "Spirit Of America" WAY outdid the sales for "Surf's Up" and "Holland", and they found that the more oldies they did, the bigger the crowds got.  See, their audience went from maybe 2,000 people who wanted to hear "Surf's Up" to 20,000 people who wanted to hear "Surfin' U.S.A.".  So when it came to recording new stuff, Mike was thinking like a business man (maybe encouraged in that mentality by his brother Steve, who managed the group at two different times in the mid-to-late '70s), and understood that they (a) needed to get Brian producing again, and (b) their new records needed to sound like their old records in order to be as successful as their old records.  'Course, it didn't quite happen that way, and couldn't, but it was wishful thinking on his part. 

Well didn't POB outsell Love You... maby that shouldve been an indication to Mike and the rest of the group to get Dennis as a more influential creative force in the band. I'm sure Dennis could have written some better stuff than some of the crap on M.I.U. Album.

Yes, but Dennis' mature, adult, and artful vision wouldn't have been within what Mike saw as "the formula" for success (Beach Boys success, anyway).  Also, Dennis' lifestyle ruled out any possibility of Mike encouraging him to take the creative reigns in the band.  If Dennis wrote simple, upbeat pop songs, was free of any self-destructive vices, and got along well with Mike, then things might've been different.  But then he wouldn't have been Dennis! 

Yeh true. I realise that but I think I am just annoyed because it went from Holland (one of their best - I've always liked it but only recently realised just HOW good the album is.) to 15 Big Ones (one of their worst). Hindsight is a wonderful thing and like most things in life, you can look back and say "gee I wish this was different" etc.. but I just wish so many things were different about The Beach Boys story. Then maby they would get MORE recognition. But then again maby not. That's just one of the most frustrating things... people say "oh the Beach Boys they suck - 'BA BA BA BA Barbara Ann' and 'Aruba Jamaica'" etc.. It just frustrates me that everyone (even people who don't realise how good they are) automatically say "The Beatles are a great band" even if they only know 10 songs or something (which in the big picture is very little of the good stuff that the Beatles recorded yet people pass off the Beach Boys as just some fun in the sun wimpy surfer band and THAT really pisses me off sometimes. And it sure wasn't helped by songs like Kokomo etc.. which of course the steps towards Kokomo basically started at 15 Big Ones

[c-man]

I think all of us here feel the same about that...lots of missed opportunities for great art!  But 15 Big Ones was very successful commerically, so even though Love You (which is great for us fan-atics, but hard to swallow for the general Joe) wasn't the most commercial, "Beach Boys-sounding" endeavor, there was still hope in the BBs camp that it could achieve a similar level of success.  When it didn't, I think they made the decision to pass the reigns to someone else, so you have Al and Ron Altbach producing the next album, which had a really retro sound but more "Beach Boys-like" arrangements and performances.

And regarding "Kokomo", it's just my opinion, but I think a lot of "serious" fans would be more accepting of it had been a single released from a whole album of more mature-sounding stuff.  In other words, its deliberately commercial, and although the chorus hook appeals to the lowest common demoninator, the verses actually sound fairly mature to me.  Put that in the context of 10 or 11 other songs of the kind that they SHOULD have been producing by this point in their career, and it wouldn't seem so bad.  But like you say...it's hindsight.

[mikeyj]

C-man I agree with everything you say. In regards to Kokomo though I think its a decent song, nowhere near one of their best songs but by no means a bad song. I just hate how people think it (along with other "classics" such as Barbara Ann) is their only type of song. Plus I, like most fans, hate that era of the band. Like that 25 Year Celebration etc... Man thats embarassing

[Sheriff John Stone]

...When it didn't, I think they made the decision to pass the reigns to someone else, so you have Al and Ron Altbach producing the next album....

And regarding "Kokomo", it's just my opinion, but I think a lot of "serious" fans would be more accepting of it had been a single released from a whole album of more mature-sounding stuff. 

I agree with the two above points. I wonder why THEY (I assume that you meant the GROUP) passed the reigns to Al and Ron? I always wondered why the Wilson brothers didn't assume control, by vote of course.

As far as the other songs "surrounding" Kokomo, it was disappointing. I was surprised to hear songs like "In My Car" from Brian Wilson, "Island Girl" from Al Jardine, and no new songs from Carl Wilson.

Oh, mikeyj, I wanted to respond to your above post regarding sales. I don't have the sales figures but, The Beach Boys Love You peaked at #53 in the U.S. and #28 in the U.K.; Pacific Ocean Blue peaked at #96 in the U.S. and did not chart in the U.K.

[c-man]

...When it didn't, I think they made the decision to pass the reigns to someone else, so you have Al and Ron Altbach producing the next album....

And regarding "Kokomo", it's just my opinion, but I think a lot of "serious" fans would be more accepting of it had been a single released from a whole album of more mature-sounding stuff. 

I agree with the two above points. I wonder why THEY (I assume that you meant the GROUP) passed the reigns to Al and Ron? I always wondered why the Wilson brothers didn't assume control, by vote of course.

As far as the other songs "surrounding" Kokomo, it was disappointing. I was surprised to hear songs like "In My Car" from Brian Wilson, "Island Girl" from Al Jardine, and no new songs from Carl Wilson.

Some of that (passing the reigns to Al and Altbach) was obviously dictated by the circumstances...Carl was not in the best of shape, going through a divorce and self-medicating a bit too much, Dennis was at odds with the Loves and also subtance-abusing.  And so the decision was made to go to MIU...what I remember reading is that Mike, Al, and Brian starting recording there without Carl or Dennis (this was reported in Rolling Stone at the time).  Brian was "giving" his vote to Mike in those days, so that's probably how it happened.  With no Carl or Dennis (at first), and Brian supposedly "unable" to make commercial-sounding records (but still able to write catchy melodies), the obvious remaining choice was Al Jardine as producer.  After awhile, Carl showed up while recording was already in-progress, and finally Dennis for a very brief time.

[mikeyj]

Oh, mikeyj, I wanted to respond to your above post regarding sales. I don't have the sales figures but, The Beach Boys Love You peaked at #53 in the U.S. and #28 in the U.K.; Pacific Ocean Blue peaked at #96 in the U.S. and did not chart in the U.K.

As you say, you don't have the sales figures, so it's entirely possible that POB outsold Love You (I'm talking exclusively about the US here)... I just remember reading that in several places and from what I rememeber they were pretty realiable sources... but I spose there is no way of knowing.. I mean there is every possibility that Love You outsold POB, which to be honest is probably more likely.

[mikeyj]

I think all of us here feel the same about that...lots of missed opportunities for great art!

I particularly find it incredibly annoying how Barbara Ann, Wipe Out, Come Go With Me, Rock And Roll Music (ALL COVERS!!) can be such big hits in either the US/UK or both and yet some of the classics that the band actually wrote were ignored. It just shows how stupid the general public can be... but then who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to say what IS and what ISN'T good music... But it still frustrates me that such great art (as you say) can be passed over.

[Dancing Bear]

I don't think there was a black and white situation where Mike told Dennis that his songs wouldn't be used for the next three albums, or Dennis told Mike he would be keeping his songs for his solo career. If there ever was the recent books would have informed us. Things just happened.

As much as I wish they had recorded another Holland in 74/75, after the struggle that last project had become those guys didn't feel like spending some months at a studio just to see the results peaking at top 40. A new aproach was needed and Endless Summer gave them the answer. Dennis had the Guercio solo offer and Carl wan't coming up with new songs that we know of (was a Love Surrounds Me backing track recorded at Caribou?). The rest is history.

[the captain]

I was trying to think earlier today what songs might have been on such an album. The most obvious ones would be We Got Love, River Song, Good Timin, and various other POB things. Otherwise, are we looking at leftovers, or were there other songs from the mid-70s that were unused but fit into that vein?