Did Brian ever use a Mellotron?

[c-man]

How about the harpsichord used on the "Eat A Lot" choruses in "Vega-Tables"?  To me, that fits the description of a guitar-like harpsi sound...

[DonnyL]

How about the harpsichord used on the "Eat A Lot" choruses in "Vega-Tables"?  To me, that fits the description of a guitar-like harpsi sound...

Yep, sounds like it's the first use of the Baldwin Harpsichord on a Beach Boys track! Though, it could actually be a Clavinet (the earlier models have a similar sound), but I would lean toward the Baldwin ... it has that sort of bright 'shimmer' the Clavinet lacks.

check out around 4:00 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h2iEdu7uAw&list=PLpvq4nHc7-USfopJWtzvfJs6SprgJS9c9

Sounds like it's in the tag on the Smiley version.

good ear, I don't think I ever noticed that, but it's obvious in the sessions.

Incidentally, Baldwin also made an electric piano called the 'Electropiano', which kind of like an upright piano minus the top. The sound is like a cross between an upright and a Wurlitzer electric. Wonder if they group ever used this one. I've played one before, but info is pretty scarce on them.

The Monkees used either a Clavinet and/or Baldwin a bit in '67:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40-zNB0BD4E

I used to think this track was a Clavinet, but I think it's probably the Baldwin.

[Amazing Larry]

I don't know what instrument they used in the Vegetables tag, but I don't think it's an electric harpsichord. I think Chuck calls it an organ a couple times.

[DonnyL]

I don't know what instrument they used in the Vegetables tag, but I don't think it's an electric harpsichord. I think Chuck calls it an organ a couple times.

The overdub session I referenced above ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h2iEdu7uAw&list=PLpvq4nHc7-USfopJWtzvfJs6SprgJS9c9 ) ... it's some kind of electro-mechanical instrument. Most likely the Baldwin I think. Are you talking about this 'tag' (from the Smiley version), or the 'Eat a Lot' section? The 'Eat a lot' section, as C-Man mentioned above, has some kind of 'electric guitar keyboard' going in the rhythm. I think the Baldwin sound on the overdub session for what became the Smiley tag supports the use of this instrument in both instances.

Re: Chuck -- lotsa folks use 'keyboard', 'piano' and 'organ' interchangeably ... I would say some wacky new plastic electric harpsichord could very well be called an 'organ' by some (I've actually listed the Rocksichord as 'organ' in album credits on my own releases).

[monicker]

You guys are the experts, but man, i really don’t see how the “chimey” overdub in the Smiley VT tag could be an electric harpsichord. There’s no discernible plucking sound in its attack. It has a much "rounder" attack which is what gives it its bell-like sound. I can't fathom any sort of harpsichord making that type of sound, especially when i hear those parts where a bunch of keys are slammed out of frustration. It doesn't have that "crunch" kind of sound that harpsichord chords have. And the range is weird too, i think it would be a lot thinner sounding if it was in the harpsichord's upper range, and a lot fuller and heavier sounding if it was in the lower range, but that sound just doesn't make much sense as the mid range of a harpsichord.

This overdub instrument has always baffled me because i’ve never been able to place it and it sounds like something that would have only existed decades later, like a toy keyboard.

I'm not saying i don't believe you, Donny and Craig, but it's just so hard to wrap my head around that being an electric harpsichord.

[Amazing Larry]

You guys are the experts, but man, i really don’t see how the “chimey” overdub in the Smiley VT tag could be an electric harpsichord. There’s no discernible plucking sound in its attack. It has a much "rounder" attack which is what gives it its bell-like sound. I can't fathom any sort of harpsichord making that type of sound, especially when i hear those parts where a bunch of keys are slammed out of frustration. It doesn't have that "crunch" kind of sound that harpsichord chords have. And the range is weird too, i think it would be a lot thinner sounding if it was in the harpsichord's upper range, and a lot fuller and heavier sounding if it was in the lower range, but that sound just doesn't make much sense as the mid range of a harpsichord.

This overdub instrument has always baffled me because i’ve never been able to place it and it sounds like something that would have only existed decades later, like a toy keyboard.

I'm not saying i don't believe you, Donny and Craig, but it's just so hard to wrap my head around that being an electric harpsichord.

Agreein' with you on this one.

[tansen]

It sounds like they are using a muted harpsichord distorted through some type of tube gear on H&V.
Oh, and I know Stephen is saying that they didn't use a mellotron on Sunflower - but they certainly tried to make it sound that way with the intro to 'At My Window'.

[c-man]

You guys are the experts, but man, i really don’t see how the “chimey” overdub in the Smiley VT tag could be an electric harpsichord. There’s no discernible plucking sound in its attack. It has a much "rounder" attack which is what gives it its bell-like sound. I can't fathom any sort of harpsichord making that type of sound, especially when i hear those parts where a bunch of keys are slammed out of frustration. It doesn't have that "crunch" kind of sound that harpsichord chords have. And the range is weird too, i think it would be a lot thinner sounding if it was in the harpsichord's upper range, and a lot fuller and heavier sounding if it was in the lower range, but that sound just doesn't make much sense as the mid range of a harpsichord.

This overdub instrument has always baffled me because i’ve never been able to place it and it sounds like something that would have only existed decades later, like a toy keyboard.

I'm not saying i don't believe you, Donny and Craig, but it's just so hard to wrap my head around that being an electric harpsichord.

Donny - thanks for backing me up on the use of Baldwin electric harpsichord on the "Eat A Lot" sections, but I agree with these other guys that something elese was used for the Smiley VG fade...when the keys are all slammed, it sounds more like a piano...based on how it sounds on the actual fade part, Alan Boyd was thinking it was a set of vibes, but that overdub session indicates otherwise...to me, that's some kind of organ, but what I don't know.  And incidentally, it was overdubbed simultaneously with the mono mixdown, so it doesn't reside on any of the multitrack tapes.

[monicker]

My best guess is that it's a transistor combo organ on maybe a glockenspiel, celeste, vibes, or even electric piano setting. Something along those lines. Though which organ i couldn't even begin to guess. I've never really heard that sound elsewhere.

[DonnyL]

I agree in the mix, it sounds vibraphon-y. listen to this clip beginning around 2:55:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4QrBLIEKEY

This is the Baldwin organ, which is probably about as sophisticated as you can get in '67 (aside from the Rocksichord). This guy plays through some of the percussive sounds ... and it sounds really good, close enough for me to go back and listen to the 'tag' part of the "vegetables" session again. I'm willing to say that it could be the Baldwin organ, and I could be wrong, BUT ...

I still think it's the Baldwin harpsichord, sent through an amp w/ heavy reverb, sent through a Leslie. You can hear the reverb coming BEFORE the Leslie, as the reverb actually swirls a bit ... when whoever is playing does that 'bad' chord over & over to signal to stop the tape & start over (listen around 3:57: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h2iEdu7uAw&list=PLpvq4nHc7-USfopJWtzvfJs6SprgJS9c9). I think maybe the Leslie is making it sound more synthetic. And the elec. harpsichord in the 'eat a lot' section is certainly not an organ ... I think maybe the Leslie is throwing us off (I believe the track 'Good Time' features a Clavinet through a Leslie, which makes it actually sound like an organ). The Leslie would subdue the attack.

I just think it sounds too percussive/stringy (you can almost hear the plectrum release) to be totally synthetic. Really, it sounds very very similar to the 'Elec. Harpsichord' tape on a Chamberlin. I used this on an album release of mine, and some people asked me what the 'casio 8 bit sound' was. It really can sound quite synthetic (imagine the sound at the beginning of this video through a Leslie w/ reverb):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztpraz85asA

I think maybe you guys are thinking of the Baldwin as more commonly used in the lower register. The upper keys sound very chime-y.

But you never know -- maybe the Baldwin organ was that good. I think whatever instrument it is, it is a single instrument/single player. My money is still on the Baldwin harpsichord, especially if we agreeing that this was used on the 'eat a lot' section. ... Until someone can tell me a specific make & model instrument that it is instead of this.

PS - There was really no combo organ at the time that could sound that 'good' in my opinion. If you listen to the vibraphone or harpsichord stops on something like the Gibson G201 (which was one of the only combo organs to have such a selection), they really sound too 'cheesy' to be used here (think 'Lucy in the Sky w/ Diamonds' intro).

[monicker]

I’m listening again, trying to imagine it as an elec. harpsichord (one thing for sure i haven’t been able to hear is any sound of the plectrum release), and that Baldwin demo video really does have me more convinced now  . But in the meantime, as an aside, i just wanted to say another thing that’s baffling about this session is how many takes it took to get such a simple part. I wonder what was going on there.

OK, back to listening.

[DonnyL]

the part where I can hear something that sounds like the 'pluck' decay is between 4:00-4:06

also, I don't think the player (Brian?) is screwing up as much as trying to work out the part he wants, then making a discordant sound to signal that he wants to start over.

I mean, it could be something totally crazy like a celeste through a leslie ... kind of like how we finally figured out that the weird percussion sound in the 'Pet Sounds' instrumental track was bongos through a leslie. I don't think it's a celeste actually though, doesn't sound like the right timbre. but you know what I mean. certainly is not vibraphone or piano.

[monicker]

Oh, i didn't mean to suggest that those tone clusters are part of the musician playing and screwing up. Those are obviously intentional. I always interpreted that as a case of a keyboardist slamming down on a bunch of keys out of frustration, but i can also see how it could be to get the engineer's attention, which does make more sense.

Yeah, i know what sound you're talking about between 4:00-4:06 but between the tape rewind, some brief static, and a bit of a vegetable crunch, it's hard to tell what exactly is going on there. What about the click at 4:12 that sounds like (not that i'm suggesting it's this, but as a comparison) someone stepping on an effects pedal?

And yeah, definitely not a vibraphone or a piano. I also doubt it's a celeste.

Man, i hate that Paul McCartney's bloody name is in the title of this video.   

[monicker]

Although, on second thought, some of the sounds on Ferrante & Teicher's prepared piano albums would really make you think twice about a piano and start doubting everything you think you know!

[c-man]

Maybe we covered this sometime back, but...I was listening to the instrumental rough mixes of "Good Timin'" that float around, and from those somewhat low-quality sources, the harpsichord sounds like an electric, especially on the note decays...consensus?

[Bill M]

Maybe we covered this sometime back, but...I was listening to the instrumental rough mixes of "Good Timin'" that float around, and from those somewhat low-quality sources, the harpsichord sounds like an electric, especially on the note decays...consensus?

I agree about the decay.  Still not convinced either way though, as the quality of the boot I have is rather poor, so it's really hard to tell.  My guess is electric.

[DonnyL]

Maybe we covered this sometime back, but...I was listening to the instrumental rough mixes of "Good Timin'" that float around, and from those somewhat low-quality sources, the harpsichord sounds like an electric, especially on the note decays...consensus?

sounds like an acoustic to me, or maybe a Mellotron/Chamberlin tape of acoustic harpsichord.

[DonnyL]

Although, on second thought, some of the sounds on Ferrante & Teicher's prepared piano albums would really make you think twice about a piano and start doubting everything you think you know!

Yeh you can do just about anything with an acoustic piano --- the most versatile instrument ever !!!

[leggo of my ego]

Maybe we covered this sometime back, but...I was listening to the instrumental rough mixes of "Good Timin'" that float around, and from those somewhat low-quality sources, the harpsichord sounds like an electric, especially on the note decays...consensus?

sounds like an acoustic to me, or maybe a Mellotron/Chamberlin tape of acoustic harpsichord.

  >:DI have some Chamberlin samples/ Memotron and you can wonk the settings around and get a lot of different sonic textures. EQ, reverb/delay/echo and mic placement were all at the studio's fingertips back in the day. I dont know when Brian acquired and started to use a tape-based sampler but the normal sound of conventional keyboards could be drastically modified using even these "limited" tools. Overdubbing could also invent a new "instrument" to keep us scratching our heads  ...Just my .02 

[DonnyL]

Maybe we covered this sometime back, but...I was listening to the instrumental rough mixes of "Good Timin'" that float around, and from those somewhat low-quality sources, the harpsichord sounds like an electric, especially on the note decays...consensus?

sounds like an acoustic to me, or maybe a Mellotron/Chamberlin tape of acoustic harpsichord.

 >:DI have some Chamberlin samples/ Memotron and you can wonk the settings around and get a lot of different sonic textures. EQ, reverb/delay/echo and mic placement were all at the studio's fingertips back in the day. I dont know when Brian acquired and started to use a tape-based sampler but the normal sound of conventional keyboards could be drastically modified using even these "limited" tools. Overdubbing could also invent a new "instrument" to keep us scratching our heads  ...Just my .02  

Yep.

But 'Good Timin' sounds pretty much like a regular harpsichord to me. The weird one is the 'Vegetables' tag instrument. But I'm 85% certain that's the Baldwin Elec. Harpsi. through a Leslie.

The group did of course use different textures, but most of the '60s-era stuff is fairly straightforward, with the weirdness coming from legitimate 'on the floor' musical combinations (as opposed to individual processing -- with a few notable exceptions). And the effects available were fairly limited ... there were also limitations due to 3, 4 & 8 track counts.

Something like 'Time to Get Alone' sticks out in my mind as classic, definitive creative BW use of instruments that combine in strange ways ... the harpsichord and piano are playing off one another, but it's a rhythmic thing, not simply combining two instruments.

By the time you get to Sunflower, there was a lot more individual processing going on, and more products on the market for processing. the mid to late '60s were the sweet spot in my opinion. The gear and instruments were simple and straightforward, so all of the creativity came with a human touch.

I think they got a Chamberlin around fall '67.

[Micha]

Yeh you can do just about anything with an acoustic piano --- the most versatile instrument ever !!!

Like, throw it out of the window?

The weird one is the 'Vegetables' tag instrument. But I'm 85% certain that's the Baldwin Elec. Harpsi. through a Leslie.

Wasn't it already confirmed that it was the Baldwin?

[DonnyL]

Yeh you can do just about anything with an acoustic piano --- the most versatile instrument ever !!!

Like, throw it out of the window?

The weird one is the 'Vegetables' tag instrument. But I'm 85% certain that's the Baldwin Elec. Harpsi. through a Leslie.

Wasn't it already confirmed that it was the Baldwin?

Who confirmed it? Baldwin harpsichord or Baldwin organ?

[puni puni]

Just wanted to say that Brian mentions that "...we have a Chamberlin but haven't experimented with it yet" in the 20 minute Rock and Other Four Letter Words interview

[Gabo]

That's weird. They already used it by early 1968 on Country Air.

[Andrew G. Doe]

... and earlier still, in late 1966/early 1967 when Desper made the 'water machine' at Brian's behest.