Question about "Surf's Up" (the song)

[Sheriff John Stone]

As far as Brian not liking the '71 version, he was still saying that as late as the late '80s/early '90s, when he said something like "I can't believe they put that song out in that state", which implies he didn't like the way the track segued into the second half of the demo version.

And then Brian "put that song out in that state" when he re-recorded it for BWPS....

[pixletwin]

As far as Brian not liking the '71 version, he was still saying that as late as the late '80s/early '90s, when he said something like "I can't believe they put that song out in that state", which implies he didn't like the way the track segued into the second half of the demo version.

And then Brian "put that song out in that state" when he re-recorded it for BWPS....

Only sort of. The 71 track's B section is pretty sparse (moog, piano, maybe a bass). Whereas the BWPS version has alot of gorgeous orchestration. Pretty big difference, if you ask me.

[Roger Ryan]

As far as Brian not liking the '71 version, he was still saying that as late as the late '80s/early '90s, when he said something like "I can't believe they put that song out in that state", which implies he didn't like the way the track segued into the second half of the demo version.

And then Brian "put that song out in that state" when he re-recorded it for BWPS....

Only sort of. The 71 track's B section is pretty sparse (moog, piano, maybe a bass). Whereas the BWPS version has alot of gorgeous orchestration. Pretty big difference, if you ask me.

Also, "Surf's Up" on BWPS has a much fuller group vocal arrangement during the first half and a much cleaner, fuller coda.

Regarding other "SMiLE" songs that appeared on previous releases: I'm certain that Brian considered "Cool, Cool Water" to be a new non-"SMiLE" related composition. He only felt uneasy about the "Water Chant" piece being included. It's possible that he felt "20/20" was really a collection of odds and ends (which it was) as opposed to a thematic album, so he would have less of a problem with "Cabin Essence" or "Our Prayer" being included as such.

[Glenn Greenberg]

I'd still like to know who's singing "That's why the child, hey hey" on the coda of the 1971 version.  It begins at 3:45 and repeats starting at 3:57.

Desper said it was Brian, but it doesn't sound anything like him.  For a while, I thought it was Jack Reilly!

[SloopJohnB]

I'd still like to know who's singing "That's why the child, hey hey" on the coda of the 1971 version.  It begins at 3:45 and repeats starting at 3:57.

Desper said it was Brian, but it doesn't sound anything like him.  For a while, I thought it was Jack Reilly!

If it isn't Jack Rieley, then I don't know who it could be. It just sounds like Jack. Listen to him on the coda for Marcella ("heeeeey Marcellaaaa") or on A Day In The Life Of A Tree. It's the same voice!

[the captain]

What I want to know is why they didn't use the "second movement" backing track that was recoorded at that late 1/67 session. Might that reel have already been lost in 1971?

I'd think that's the easiest question to answer: they wanted Brian singing on the song, and he wasn't going to redo vocals. The original demo he did wouldn't have matched the old backing track.

[adamghost]

What I want to know is why they didn't use the "second movement" backing track that was recoorded at that late 1/67 session. Might that reel have already been lost in 1971?

It likely may have been.  Certainly the whereabouts of that reel have been speculated about...I have heard that quite a bit of SMILE stuff went missing in the '80s, but that one was probably long gone by '71 (destroyed by Brian?)

[Andrew G. Doe]

This assumption that the 1/23/67 session at Western was for the mythical 2nd movement - I'm not aware of any hard evidence that this is so. Have I missed something ?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

When you folks refer to the second movement, are you talking about the second half of the song,or an actual second movement ?

[Andrew G. Doe]

The 2nd half of the song - "Dove-nested towers..." and thereafter.

As far as I can see , the assumption that a 2nd movement was recorded is based on the tagging of a November '66 session as "1st movement". Some here may recall that a few years back, on the old Cabin Essence MB, Domenic Priore popped up and claimed to have heard this tape (the 2nd movement) back in the late 70s, and was promptly reminded that in a recent edition of LLVS he'd firmly denied that it had ever been recorded or existed at all. He left, precipitately. Thus, as this is the only instance of anyone claiming the track exists, and there's no available documentary proof, I'm dubious it ever happened. Anyone care to comment (that is, prove me wrong with examples - this is what usually happens in these scenarios :-))

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Typical Priore.

[c-man]

Here's something I copied from one of these message boards some time back:

Here's a post from Alan Boyd in response to a question about if
they ever found a tape of Surf's Up Pt. 2 in the vaults...


*******

I wish I could offer something a bit more concrete here...

I've heard about the existence of a tape of a full arrangement on that
second section of SURF'S UP. It's been described to me, third-hand.
Supposedly it's pretty weird, lots of strange horn and string parts.
But I haven't heard it.

We don't have it in the Beach Boys' tape library. And it's not among
Brian's tapes either.

There is an enormous amount of SMILE material that's missing. I
recently saw a photograph on Ed Roach's site of a tape shelf at Brother
Studio, late 1970s. Right there, along with safety 1/4" masters of all
the group's albums, is a tape labeled "BRIAN - DUMB ANGEL." Probably a
1/4" or 1/2". I nearly had a stroke when I saw that, and I immediately
called anyone and everyone who ever had access to tapes at Brother, and
asked what they knew about it. No one knew. What was on that reel?
Where is it now? It certainly wasn't listed in the 1985 inventory of
the group's tapes.

What WAS listed in that inventory are the many empty tape boxes from
the SMILE era, on titles like "Heroes and
Villains," "Cabinessence," "Surf's Up," "Vegetables," etc... they were
empty in 1985, they're empty today. I'm certain, however, that excerpts
from at least one of them (overdubs onto the last verse
of "Vegetables") showed up on one of the SOT discs. They're almost all
1/4" mixdowns. Other SMILE tracks were assembled onto some of the 1/2"
STACK-O-TRACKS assembly reels, and those SMILE songs are
also....missing.

Did Brian actually destroy some tapes back in the day? I think he just
might have...

Are there one-of-a-kind tapes that have been stolen and are now in the
hands of collectors? Yes...

Were there tapes that Brian somehow left behind at a studio after
working on them that have since found their way into the hands of
collectors? Probably...

Are there acetates of missing material in the hands of collectors
and/or people who were around at the time? Absolutely...

Are there people reading THIS now who may know where some of this
material now resides? Wouldn't surprise me in the least...

Would anyone "in the know" feel at all inclined to help us find some of
these missing tapes? I sure hope so....

(BRI is willing to pay for material, no questions asked, just in case
you're reading this and you happen to be holding onto a dub of the
second movement of SURF'S UP, hint hint, or anything else you know we
DON'T have, so please get in touch with me through Jon Hunt, OK?)

*sigh*

Your Friendly Neighborhood Vault Rat

Alan

[Rocker]

One other potential reason for not wanting to use the first part--and keep in mind, I have no idea whether it is true, but it's just a possibility--is that unless I'm mistaken (which I could well be) the piano and one of the vocals weren't done separately, so there would only be so much you could do with the mix because of the bleed.

From my reading of the Seigal article, Brian cut the piano track first, then overdubbed one, maybe two vocal tracks (as it was at Columbia, very probably on to their 8-track).

Sound correct as there's a acapella-version of "Surf's up" on "Get the boot" with Brian's double tracked lead.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

The 2nd half of the song - "Dove-nested towers..." and thereafter.

As far as I can see , the assumption that a 2nd movement was recorded is based on the tagging of a November '66 session as "1st movement". Some here may recall that a few years back, on the old Cabin Essence MB, Domenic Priore popped up and claimed to have heard this tape (the 2nd movement) back in the late 70s, and was promptly reminded that in a recent edition of LLVS he'd firmly denied that it had ever been recorded or existed at all. He left, precipitately. Thus, as this is the only instance of anyone claiming the track exists, and there's no available documentary proof, I'm dubious it ever happened. Anyone care to comment (that is, prove me wrong with examples - this is what usually happens in these scenarios :-))

I think the reason that the 2nd movement theory has persisted is because there are more track sessions logged as "Surf's Up" than we have heard material from.

There's the first movement, the horn overdub, and then the mysterious session from Jan 23 that's logged as Surf's Up but doesn't match any of the instrumentation (based on the musicians present) for any part of Surf's Up we've ever heard.  Now, of course it could have ended up as a session for another song, but the specific instrumentation, in my mind, doesn't seem to match any Smile material.

[c-man]

The 2nd half of the song - "Dove-nested towers..." and thereafter.

As far as I can see , the assumption that a 2nd movement was recorded is based on the tagging of a November '66 session as "1st movement". Some here may recall that a few years back, on the old Cabin Essence MB, Domenic Priore popped up and claimed to have heard this tape (the 2nd movement) back in the late 70s, and was promptly reminded that in a recent edition of LLVS he'd firmly denied that it had ever been recorded or existed at all. He left, precipitately. Thus, as this is the only instance of anyone claiming the track exists, and there's no available documentary proof, I'm dubious it ever happened. Anyone care to comment (that is, prove me wrong with examples - this is what usually happens in these scenarios :-))

I think the reason that the 2nd movement theory has persisted is because there are more track sessions logged as "Surf's Up" than we have heard material from.

There's the first movement, the horn overdub, and then the mysterious session from Jan 23 that's logged as Surf's Up but doesn't match any of the instrumentation (based on the musicians present) for any part of Surf's Up we've ever heard.  Now, of course it could have ended up as a session for another song, but the specific instrumentation, in my mind, doesn't seem to match any Smile material.

To make matters more confusing, there was a SECOND session held on Jan 23, a half-hour after the first, logged as "Part One".  Was it Part One of "Surf's Up"?  Wasn't that the one from Nov 4 ?  Who knows.  The instrumentation used at this second Jan 23 session (17 musicians) seems to be mostly strings & horns, so if it was in fact an overdub onto the track cut earlier that day, it would seem to match that of the missing second movement that was described to Alan B. third-hand.  Personally, I believe the truth IS out there, but we may never know it in our lifetimes.

[Boiled Egg]

what was the instrumentation (or the personnel) listed on the contract sheets for the jan 23 session?

[Boiled Egg]

my bad.  found it.  it had fallen down the back of the net.

Studio: Western Recorders
Date & Hours of Employment: January 23, 1967 3:00 PM to 6:00 PM
Master No.: 57087
No. of Minutes: n/a
Title of Tunes: Surf's Up
Session Musicians: Hal Blaine, Diane Rovell, Charles D. Britz, Roy V. Caton, William E. Creen, James R. Horn, Jay Migliori, William Pitman, Lyle Ritz, Carl D. Wilson

so that's drums (HB), a contractor (DR), an engineer (CDB), trumpet (RVC), sax (WEG), sax (JRH), sax (JM), guitar or bass (WP), double bass (LR) and guitar/moral support (CDW).  that doesn't describe a 'strings and horns' track.  is this the session in question?

[XY]

Fascinating. I could read this stuff for hours.

[Bicyclerider]

Anyone have the session personnel for "Part One" handy?  If the earlier session was for Surf's Up, potentially for a Part 2, maybe Brian decided it didn't match what he had already recorded and decided to rerecord the first movement as "Part One?"

On the other hand, since virtually every song for Smile had different "parts" Part One could have been for just about any song.  But the fact it came right after a Surf's Up session is suggestive.

[Bicyclerider]

Another thought to add fuel to the fire:

The Surf's Up "demo" recorded in December wasn't a demo at all - why doubetrack your vocal if that's the case?  This was done during filming for the TV doc but wasn't used, because it wasn't all one performance - the TV performance was done later in Brian's home.  The only explanation I keep coming back to is that Brian was considering using this solo piano/vocal performance as the album track, perhaps with overdubs (like strings) - making it a solo performance not unlike Caroline, No.

[XY]

I don't have the exact quote at the moment, but Brian stated around January 1967 that he's thinking about releasing something that's just him with piano as B-side to "Heroes & Villains", so your theory makes sense. If you believe Keith Badman's book, the January '67 string overdub session was indeed for the solo performance, but Badman is Badman.

[Mark H.]

If memory serves, a couple years back Peter Reum posted something to the effect that the 2nd half of SU had been unearthed so-to-speak.  Then nothing....did he ever clarify this?  Does he post here?

Just because there a session is logged doesn't mean "any work" was really accomplished.  Clearly not a note was recorded at some sessions.  Bad vibs, paranoia, etc. certainly played more and more havoc with Brian in early 1967.  What did he really accomplish after 1/67...not much.

I always assumed that the solo SU performance at Columbia was for the cameras.  My dream is to see that raw footage.

edit for spelling

[SurfRiderHawaii]

By the sounds of this, Brian was heavily involved by the end.

From the Jack Reiley thread - http://www.smileysmile.net/index.php/jack_rieley_speaks_part_one

RE: Attn: Jack Rieley (Surfs Up)

From: Jack Rieley
To: 'pet-sounds@lists.primenet.com' (pet -sounds@lists.primenet.com)
Reply-To: pet-sounds@lists.primenet.com
Date: Oct 15 1996 - 8:45pm

Rick,

Re-read my earlier response and you'll see I was referring to him complaining, wailing MOCK emotion.

Brian Wilson loved Surfs Up. He knew very well that it may be one of the most important pieces of music in this century. He was dying for Surfs Up to be acknowledged for what it is, but terrified that it would get ignored, discarded, lost, much as Heroes and Villains was virtually ignored years earlier.

In short, Brian Wilson lived in terror of public failure. A lot has been made of his drug use/abuse, which may indeed have had searing effects upon him. But it was the public failure of Heroes to to wow Capitol and thus wow the world that caused him to withdraw. When the withdrawal began to attract notice, Brian's keen senses picked up on the fact. Soon he was feeding off the crumbs of legend available to "Brian Wilson, eccentric recluse" -- a hideous second-best to the public acclaim he was denied.

No wonder that he was unsure of my plan to complete Surfs Up and release the track.

As related earlier, I changed the album title from Landlocked to Surfs Up. The shift was to principally honor the song's greatness. But the shift was also evidence to Brian that I was serious about making his work shine. At the same time, the re-titling served to prevent Brian from giving in to his terror.

The arrangement that you hear on the album resulted from many talks with Brian, and a careful examination of the real Smile tapes -- the originals. Carl and I got Brian's explicit support to remove the originals from the vault and take them to Carl's place on Coldwater, where the two of us listened to songs and snippets, full works and outtakes, night after night after night. Without even an engineer around, we tried mending and splicing the brittle multitrack recordings. Sometimes we succeeded. With the Fire tapes, which were there but damaged (and not by fire), we had to settle for long passages and short gaps. There's much more to say about Smile, of course, but this note is about Surfs Up.

The song was in several disjointed, uncompleted sections. Child was clearly intended to be the climax. After many nights of listening -- at least two with Brian on Coldwater with us -- we set out to construct and reconstruct. I first flirted with the thought Brian should sing the lead on the first section, but Brian insisted that Carl do it, and Carl was clearly thrilled. It was the right thing to do. The Brian solo section is of course constructed around Brian's televised appearance for Leonard Bernstein. Carl played the bottom end synth, I decided to cut all effects from Brian's voice on the title line. We had lots of musicians in to redo parts of the track that had been played badly. Recording went on for several weeks, with Brian very involved but Carl heading the effort. It was going to be a masterpiece. By the time we got to Child, some of the moving parts had Brian excited and active. He chose Carl for a couple, took on a two for himself, assigned two more to me, got Marilyn for still another. Desper seemed to realize he was recording something extraordinary: his acid humor was replaced by, ahh, reverence.

Credit for the brilliance of Surfs Up, the recorded song, must be shared by Brian Wilson, who composed that incredible crown jewel, and Carl Wilson, who guided and nurtured the amazing recording project, in addition to singing a truly spectacular lead vocal. My own role was to fight through Brian's terror with honor, respect and enthusiastic persistence, so that you all could hear Surfs Up.

- Jack

[Roger Ryan]

We had lots of musicians in to redo parts of the track that had been played badly.
- Jack

I find this quote to be particularly suspect. In listening to the finished recording, I hear the '66 backing track exactly as it appears on the GV Box Set with the moog bass overdubbed. If "lots of musicians" were brought in to redo parts, there's not much evidence on tape, unless the entire backing track was recut and performed identical to the one already in the can since '66.

[LostArt]

Yeah, that's the first I've heard of this.  It does indeed sound suspect.  Perhaps we should take Andrew's advice.  Anybody got a few grains of salt I could borrow?