To make an album better

[Aegir]

Those were exactly the two songs I was thinking of. South American sounds like a perfect song for Mike to sing, except I can't imagine anyone but Brian singing "I'm hungry and I'm doin' lunch with CAMERON DIAZ!!"

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Ok here is my list.

Th

Wild Honey:
 include-Cool Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long and Gettin Hungry
 disclude-I Was Made to Love Her and Mama Says

Friends:
 include-I Went To Sleep, Time to Get Alone, A Time to Live in Dreams, Lonely Days and Old Man    River
 disclude-Transcendetal Meditation

20/20:
 include: Soulful Old Man Sunshine, Break Away, Celebrate the News, and Loop De Loop
 disclude: Blubirds, Cotton Fields, I Went to Sleep, Time to Get Alone and Smile out takes (because in my world, Smile would've come out in 1967)

Sunflower:
 include: San Miguel and Barbara
 disclude: Got to Know the Woman and Cool, Cool Water

Surfs Up (Landlocked):
 include: Fourth of July, Soul of Free and Lady
 disclude: Take a Load Off, Student Demonstration, and Surfs Up

So Tough/Holland (double album with Mt Vernon and Fairway):
 include: We Got Love
 disclude: He Come Down and Only With You

15 Big Ones:
 disclude: all of it

Other post albums should include: Winter Symphony, Still I Dream of It and Its Over Now

[Rocker]

i'd love to hear a BB version of South America & Cry

Melinda once posted on the blueboard that Carl really wanted to sing on the album, more specific it probably was "Lay down burden", but that he died before he could record vocals.

[John]

I copied a 20/20 that was a little more 1968 specific - it goes like this:

Do It Again /  I Can Hear Music / Bluebirds Over The Mountain / Be With Me / All I Want To Do / The Nearest Faraway Place /
Cottonfields
[hypothetical side two]:
Ol' Man River [Hawthorne version] / A Time To Live In Dreams / I Went To Sleep / Time To Get Alone / Never Learn Not To Love / We're Together Again / Old Folks At Home - Ol' Man River

And a 1969 specific Sunflower:

Slip On Through / This Whole World / All I Wanna Do / Got To Know The Woman / San Miguel / Loop De Loop / Break Away
[hypothetical side two]:
Celebrate The News / Soulful Old Man Sunshine / Games Two Can Play / Forever / At My Window / Cotton Fields [45]

[shelter]

Pet Sounds add GV's, plus a better cover, although in 2007 it's kind of cool in a un-cool way.

I never understood why so many people think that GV should've been on Pet Sounds. First of all, it wasn't done yet. The GV backing track from the PS sessions is not nearly as good as the final one. Second: musically, it fitted better on Smile than on PS. Third: I think that Smile would've been cancelled months earlier if GV would've been on PS, because the sure inclusion of GV on Smile probably gave Brian just a little more time and credit for that album. And I never understood Capitol's 'no hit singles' comment about PS. Until then, they usually took just 1 of 2 singles off the Beach Boys' albums, and with "God Only Knows", "Sloop John B", "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "Caroline No", PS had more than enough good single material.

[punkinhead]

honestly, i think GV should have remained a single and not on any album...kind of like Hey Jude isn't on any specific album (i know past masters vol. 2)

[Aegir]

In America, Hey Jude was released on "Hey Jude" the album, in 1970..

tracklisting:
1. Can't Buy Me Love
2. I Should Have Known Better
3. Paperback Writer
4. Rain
5. Lady Madonna
6. Revolution
7. Hey Jude
8. Old Brown Shoe
9. Don't Let Me Down
10. Ballad of John and Yoko

[punkinhead]

yeah, i knew somebody was gonna post that...what i meant was that it wasnt intended for an album...kinda like breakaway (with the exception of reverberation) was on spirit of america

[PMcC]

I know what you mean. "Hey Jude" as a gathering of singles. I bought it, and loved it when it came out. I can't agree with you that GV should have been a stand alone single. I can see it on the finished Smile, and I imagine that album to have been released mid-march, 67....oh, well....

[Fun Is In]

Back where this thread started:

I can understand why people DON'T like "Student Demonstration Time" but as someone who bought that flat piece of vinyl back in the year that it was originally released, I can say that the song had real resonance for me and belonged on the record.

It's OK with me for people to pull them apart and put them back together knowing what we know now, but "back in the day", America WAS stunned on May 4 1970......

[MBE]

I like SDT too it kicks. It also worked well in American Band.

[thomasogg]

Just add Dennis' tracks. He was by far the most talented song writer in the group from '68 onwards.

20/20 - replace 'Bluebirds..' with 'Mona Kanua'

SUNFLOWER - replace 'Dedire' with 'San Miguel' and 'At My Window' with 'Lady'

SURF'S UP - tracklisting as follows SIDE ONE 1. DON'T GO NEAR.. 2. LONG PROMISED ROAD 3. WOULDN'T IT BE NICE (TO LIVE AGAIN) 4. DISNEY GIRLS 5. STUDENT DEMO.. 6.
A TIME TO LIVE IN DREAMS/ SIDE TWO 7. FEEL FLOWS 8. LOOKIN' AT TOMORROW 9. 4TH OF JULY 10. A DAY IN THE LIFE OF.. 11. 'TIL I DIE 12. SURF'S UP Now would that not have been the album of there goshdarn career?

CARL & THE PASSIONS - Replace 'He Come Down' with 'Barbara'

HOLLAND - Add 'Carry Me Home' to side two, between 'Trader' and 'Leaving This Town'

See? With just a few Denny songs added here and there and suddenly the albums improve x50!!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Just add Dennis' tracks. He was by far the most talented song writer in the group from '68 onwards.

20/20 - replace 'Bluebirds..' with 'Mona Kanua'

SUNFLOWER - replace 'Dedire' with 'San Miguel' and 'At My Window' with 'Lady'

SURF'S UP - tracklisting as follows SIDE ONE 1. DON'T GO NEAR.. 2. LONG PROMISED ROAD 3. WOULDN'T IT BE NICE (TO LIVE AGAIN) 4. DISNEY GIRLS 5. STUDENT DEMO.. 6.
A TIME TO LIVE IN DREAMS/ SIDE TWO 7. FEEL FLOWS 8. LOOKIN' AT TOMORROW 9. 4TH OF JULY 10. A DAY IN THE LIFE OF.. 11. 'TIL I DIE 12. SURF'S UP Now would that not have been the album of there blessed career?

CARL & THE PASSIONS - Replace 'He Come Down' with 'Barbara'

HOLLAND - Add 'Carry Me Home' to side two, between 'Trader' and 'Leaving This Town'

See? With just a few Denny songs added here and there and suddenly the albums improve x50!!

You were right with your first sentence (just add Dennis' tracks), but you don't have to replace any songs. There was enough vinyl on those above albums to accommodate an extra song or two. No need to elimate any; just adding another track would've made a significant difference...

[the captain]

I don't agree that Dennis was the best songwriter from 68 onwards--I prefer Brian's material, even as it was more limited, all the way up through MIU, after which I pretty much despise all of the material by everyone. But Dennis did have a lot of good songs that were unfortunately left off. Of course, many of Brian's interesting songs of those same years were also left off--that was just the BBs' way from the late 60s on.

As for adding without subtracting--you must have about 20 minutes' worth on C&TP! Eight songs???

[thomasogg]

True, you could just add the songs without subtracting, but wouldn't 20/20 be better without Bruce's awful take on 'Bluebird..'? Would anyone actually want to keep 'Take A Load..' on Surf's Up? Or 'He Come Down' on CATP? I think the albums as i've suggested are pretty much perfect really.. 'Deirde' is pretty mediorce, so why leave it on just coz there's room? Bung 'San Miguel' on top instead, and you've got yourself one hell of a Sunflower a-side!!

(Oh, and sorry, but Dennis was so much the best songwriter at this time!! Brian and Carl had there moments (and what moments..!!) but Denny was consistent and inventive. Songs like 'Lady' and 'Baby Blue' are masterpieces and it's a crime that they aren't better known..)

[the captain]

True, you could just add the songs without subtracting, but wouldn't 20/20 be better without Bruce's awful take on 'Bluebird..'? Would anyone actually want to keep 'Take A Load..' on Surf's Up?

Yep.

(Oh, and sorry, but Dennis was so much the best songwriter at this time!!

Nope.

[thomasogg]

Ok, well if not dennis than who? Brian's contributions from this point onwards, with the odd exception of songs such as Til I Die and Funky Pretty, were either updates of earlier work (Surf's Up, Sail On Sailor) or originals that borrowed heavily from previous songs (i.e. Marcella, which re-uses the melody of 1965's 'Dressed Up For School'). Carl wrote some amazing tunes (Feel Flows, Trader) but was hardly profilic, averaging one or two great tracks a year (later his mediorce solo albums would demonstrate all too clearly that Carl was an exceptional singer and producer first, and a songwriter second). Dennis meanwhile was churning out one great tune after another, whether cracking rock songs like 'I'm Going Your Way', gorgeous ballards such as 'Cuddle Up', moving protest songs like '4th Of July' and 'Carry Me Home', or experimental pieces such as 'Lady' (who else was using drum machines back then..?). Brian and Carl were both stellar talents, and Brian was certainly the most gifted member of the group for most of the Sixties, but towards the end of the decade (from 'Friends' onwards) Dennis overtook his older borther and stayed ahead of him until his untimely death (for a perfect example of this, listen to 'Pacific Ocean Blue', Dennis' 1977 solo masterpiece, then give Brian's effort of the same year a spin, 'Love You').

Unless of course you were seriously going to suggest that a non-Wilson member of the group was the greatest songwriter of the time? But I very much hope not....
 

[Alan Boyd]

Which part of "All Dressed Up For School" was recycled into "Marcella"?

[the captain]

(who else was using drum machines back then..?).
 

Brian, for one--Till I Die.

And yes, I think Brian was the best songwriter, even in the late 60s and early 70s. No disrespect to Dennis, but Brian's output from the period ranks far above for me.

As for the recycled melody idea, if you'd said he recycled All Dressed Up For School into I Just Got My Pay, I'd have no comment--it's true. But to imply that it's the same one as Marcella is wrong (whether it's written in liner notes or not). Just because a note goes from I down to IV doesn't doesn't make it the same melody. The chord progression isn't even the same after that one similarity. You can find a similarity in those two notes, if you want...but if that's all it takes, there are going to be thousands of songs that recycle melodies. Vague or momentary similarity does not mean recycling.

And anyway, wasn't ADUFS unreleased? If so, who cares? Why shouldn't a writer recycle from material that was never released, if s/he wants to? I doubt Brian knew people would be scouring his vaults 40 years later to critique such things.

[thomasogg]

Ok, point kinda taken re Marcella, though they certainly sound similar to me.. But, aside from Til I Die, can someone please name me ANY Brian track written AFTER 1970 that is better than tracks such as 'River Song', 'Baby Blue', 'Moonshine', or 'Carry Me home'? Seriously, a genuinely better track - not a 'i like it coz it's kinda dorky' track ala 'Solar System'. Dennis was so obviously producing superior material i find it surprising anyone is disagreeing.. I'd expected a loada agreements haha!

[the captain]

Seriously, a genuinely better track - not a 'i like it coz it's kinda dorky' track ala 'Solar System'.

'Fraid it's impossible to convince you (and I have no interest in trying) because there is no way to define "genuinely better track." For example, I DO like Solar System more than almost everything Dennis ever did--and Johnny Carson, and plenty of the other silly songs off of Love You. Does silliness mean lack of quality? I'd say no. I also prefer Funky Pretty, the fairy tale music, It's Over Now, Lines, Baseball, Still I Dream of It, and plenty of other Brian songs from post-70 over pretty much everything by Dennis. It doesn't matter--I just do. Just like it doesn't matter you prefer Dennis' -- you just do. But trying to justify them as objectively "better" just because you prefer them, and without some criteria by which to measure and prove your point, might not be the best use of time.

[thomasogg]

Good point. It's all subjective i suppoose. I love the Beach Boys and Brian's music, but stuff like It's trying To Say (Baseball) and It's Over Now i personally don't rate.. By this point Brian was pretty ill and i think it reflects in the songs, and not in a particularly good way. He was far, far from his best, while Denny was at the top of his game. I think 'Moonshine' might well be my favourite track by a BB ever in fact.. Either that or 'Take a Load off Your Feet'. (Just joking...)

[MBE]

I would say Brian's stuff through 73-74 is equal to Dennis' work. Dennis DID automatically become the only Beach Boy to match Brian's songs in 1968 but Brian was still on a roll even if the songs after 70 came in lesser quantity.  However from 15 Big Ones on Dennis was WAY WAY above Brian in that period. Brian did some decent songs then but Dennis hadn't gone downhill as a songwriter at all. Though it could be argued that Dennis' voice impaired his late 70's recordings as well, his darker more mature themes suited that sound better then say Solar System. I do think Still I Dream Of It is a classic though. Of course this is all subjective.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

It is up for debate who's songs were better of Dennis and Brian post 1968. However, the more reliable and consistant of the two was definately Dennis. Of course somebody might say that Brian still had more credits then Dennis in that time, but there is a reason for that. Probably 90% of the songs Brian did were released compared to 40% of Dennis songs. Of course I'm making those numbers up, but you get the point.

[Aegir]

True, you could just add the songs without subtracting, but wouldn't 20/20 be better without Bruce's awful take on 'Bluebird..'? Would anyone actually want to keep 'Take A Load..' on Surf's Up? Or 'He Come Down' on CATP? I think the albums as i've suggested are pretty much perfect really.. 'Deirde' is pretty mediorce, so why leave it on just coz there's room?

Do most people think like you? I would hope not. Those songs you mentioned were written (besides Bluebirds..) and performed by the Beach Boys, my favorite band ever. Why would I ever want to get rid of songs by my favorite band? They're good!