What if "Smile" had failed?

[TheLazenby]

I'm curious to see what you all think would have happened if these two scenarios occurred....

1) After the relative failure of "Pet Sounds", Brian still manages to press on and complete "Smile."  It's released in January 1967, and despite good reviews, is a flop.  It doesn't sell very many copies, and only hits a very low chart position because people were just plain confused and bewildered by it.  What would have happened to both Brian and the Beach Boys?

Or...

2) "Smile" doesn't come out in 1967, and in 2004, Brian announces that he's going to complete it and perform it live.  He's worried that the audience won't like it... and they don't.  The audience reaction is general bewilderment and confusion at the strange lyrics, and the "Smile" tour doesn't happen, nor does the studio recording.  What do you think would've happened to Brian??

I'm not sure about the outcome of #1, but I think if the 2004 "Smile" had failed, that probably would've been the end of Brian.   (Of course, I'm sure that there was an EXTREMELY small chance of that happening... I think if "Smile" turned out to be 90 minutes of farts, the audience would've loved it!)

[the captain]

2) "Smile" doesn't come out in 1967, and in 2004, ...The audience reaction is general bewilderment and confusion at the strange lyrics,

I think the odds of that being the reason for a 2004 audience not liking it were slim-to-none. Remember, the bulk of those lyrics had been in the BW fans' possession for 35+ years. There is nothing strange about them now (if there was then). A more likely scenario for why BW fans would have disliked it in 2004 would've been the sequencing, the sampled harpsichord and tack piano, the Walusko pirate-rap and the suspicion that Brian didn't really do all that much of it in 2004.

Oh wait, those are the reasons the people who didn't like it DID give for not liking it.

(I liked it. Both old recordings and released BWPS.)

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

After the relative failure of "Pet Sounds", Brian still manages to press on and complete "Smile."  It's released in January 1967, and despite good reviews, is a flop.  It doesn't sell very many copies, and only hits a very low chart position because people were just plain confused and bewildered by it.  What would have happened to both Brian and the Beach Boys?

That would've been the end of the Beach Boys.

[Sheriff John Stone]

That would've been the end of the Beach Boys.

In 1966, The Beach Boys had hit singles with "Wouldn't It Be Nice", "God Only Knows", and "Sloop John B". Pet Sounds went Top 10 and The Beatles were praising the hell out of it.

Then, "Good Vibrations" is released, goes No. 1, and is proclaimed "the new sound". Brian is called a genius and The Beach Boys are voted the Top Group in the world (in some major poll).

And you're saying one flopped album would've broken up the group?

Money, money, money, money, money, money...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Well,it might have been the end of Brian. Not literally, but that would've destroyed him worse than it not coming out. Everything was building to SMiLE. It not coming out was devastating, true. But...everytime a little nugget would appear on a subsequent album (Surf's Up, Cabinessence for example), it would get everyone hyped up for more. For a time, too, there was always that glimmer of hope that it would indeed come out.

So say it did,and bombed. You know what would've happened? Brian would've been like "f*** it. I'm done". Mike (and the others,too, save Dennis) would've blamed Brian for killing their careers. I mean, they did that anyone in reality, but deep down they knew they had a lot of the blame. There was a bit of guilt there. However, if they had been supportive and it still flopped (which them being supportive would've been the only way it would've come out), then they'd be perfectly justified in their anger. Then, it would've been right back to the oldies. It would've been 1976, only in 1967...and there wouldn't be Endless Summer and American Graffiti, and the whole nostalgic trip to build off of!

Of course, that's if "bombing" in this sense means the critics loving it and the public hating it, if that's what you meant by

It doesn't sell very many copies, [/b]and only hits a very low chart position because people were just plain confused and bewildered by it.[/b]

.

Now what would've happened in reality if SMiLE had come out IMHO...

It would've received rave reviews, no doubt. Would've been album of the year in the UK. In the US, though...it would've sold initially well, although not up the the previous standards. It would've appealed to their more progressive fans, but...the casual listening  public would indeed have been confused. So, I say it would've made the Top 10 for sure, maybe even but barely  .  However, and this is what people don't seem to realize, after the first week, Capitol folks  would've said something like "All of this hype, and it "only" made #8?" It would drop quickly over the next two weeks. Now, I think positive word of mouth would've gotten sales back up except for one thing...Capitol likely would've put out a best-of as quickly as possible. They did that with Pet Sounds, and that was more accessible than SMiLE! Either way, Capitol would've viewed it as a sales disappointment regardless.   What would've happened next is where it gets interesting. Brian STILL would've went into his "less is more" mode, and we'd probably still get Wild Honey, which would have sold about the same. Friends however probably would've done better. Otherwise, everything would've turned up pretty much the same, except this time there would be no SMiLE outtakes to pad later albums with. Hell, they might've left Capitol sooner.

Point is...it was always destined to be a cult album. Why? Because even in 1967, the general American public overall was still buying "safe" music.  Everyone in 2007 remembers Jefferson Airplane and the like, but looking at which records actually SOLD the most proves a different tale. Don't believe me? Turn on the oldies station. Compare anything on  SMiLE to songs by Herman's Hermits, Johnny Rivers, Paul Revere, and the like. It doesn't have the same mass appeal, despite being infinitely superior.

Nah, if it had come out, we'd be on this board talking about the new issue of Rolling Stone, which would've had SMiLE as the cover story. "the 40th anniversary of the best album you've never heard". Remember, Pet Sounds was out of print for a while. SMiLE would've performed pretty much the same.

Here's an interesting thought...how would Sgt Pepper have been received if my scenario I came up with would've came down?

[MBE]

Gotta go with Sheriff John Stone, Pet Sounds would have been declared gold in 67 had the lawsuit not happened. I think was only a flop in Brian's eyes as far as him wanting Pet Sounds to be his biggest album to date. That it is now is not in debate, but it was pretty popular then too despite Capitol's ignorance.

Smile might have done pretty well, if it had been released right after Good Vibes on the strength of that alone. I think Heroes is an even better song myself, but even an outstanding mix of it wouldn't have made it as radio friendly as Good Vibes. I think it would have sold well but not as much as Pepper. Whether they deserved to be or not, The Beatles were more famous then the Beach Boys. They were entertainment personalities in a way no other rock group of the era was. That said I think that Smile would be as well regarded as other 1967 "classic" albums are.

Sadly it is more famous now then most of those albums simply because it didn't come out. That it didn't get released  probably made Brian far more notorious then he would have been otherwise. Not in a good way maybe but Brian Wilson's legend sometimes overtakes his actual music in the publics mind. Personally I think Brian and the Beach Boys would have turned out pretty much the same way. Brian was clearly having problems as early as 1964, the group would have blossomed as songwriters. Maybe their would have been less strife, maybe certain events would have happened at different times. Overall though I think fate is fate.

By the way I think Brian's music from 67-70 is as good as anything I ever heard. He was still progressing and I don't buy into Smile being the end of Brian.

[mikeyj]

By the way I think Brian's music from 67-70 is as good as anything I ever heard. He was still progressing and I don't buy into Smile being the end of Brian.

I agree. I think thats probably the thing that annoys me the most. people saying "After Pet Sounds/SMiLE Brian did nothing until 15 Big Ones"  which of course is absolute rubbish. That and when people say "The Beach Boys never played on their records besides the first two albums".. Its not exactly the publics fault for believing this but it sure does annoy me when people say that.

[Bicyclerider]

Smile would have flopped, at least in Capitol's eyes in terms of sales, in 1967 - just like Smiley flopped, although that wasn't the end of the Beach Boys, and neither would less than stellar sales of Smile.  Smile would have been an "underground" hit, a critical success, and once Pepper was released it's reputation (and sales) would only grow.

[Dancing Bear]

1) After the relative failure of "Pet Sounds", Brian still manages to press on and complete "Smile."  It's released in January 1967, and despite good reviews, is a flop.  It doesn't sell very many copies, and only hits a very low chart position because people were just plain confused and bewildered by it.  What would have happened to both Brian and the Beach Boys?

It would probably do as well as Pet Sounds, carried by a #1 hit (GV) and a top 20 hit (H&V). Business as usual.

Hit or flop, Brian still would have problems concentrating on finishing things, so the next album project would be a Wild Honey or a Friends.

2) "Smile" doesn't come out in 1967, and in 2004, Brian announces that he's going to complete it and perform it live.  He's worried that the audience won't like it... and they don't.  The audience reaction is general bewilderment and confusion at the strange lyrics, and the "Smile" tour doesn't happen, nor does the studio recording.  What do you think would've happened to Brian??

How? BWPS was basically what everyone knew and expected from Simile, from the GV Box Set and boots. Plus 15% of new vocal melodies added on top. Even if someone is not crazy about the "new" bits (I like PR and SFC, don't care for the rest), they would have to be REALLY bizarre and repulsing to ruin the audience's expectations.

[Fun Is In]

One measure of success is how many new listeners your music draws in.

Was BWPS successful in that regard?

Among my friends (mostly boomers) the answer would be "not very successful", but that's only a small slice of one country.

For me, BWPS seems a massive triumph and great success for the artist.....and the BWPS shows sold out......at least initially......but how many units of the CD have sold and how many units of the DVD sold? How do those numbers stack up against contemporaneous CD sales by Oasis or Radiohead or Britney Spears? Is it like the ratio of Pet Sounds LP sales to the contemporaneous top selling album sales or was it better or worse? Did BWPS sell as well as Sounds of Summer?

For most long-time fans and critics, BWPS was a triumph......but that is a small subset of music listeners. How far out into the general population did BWPS spread? It was essentialy not on the radio where I live.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Good post, Mark. You raised a lot of questions that I have also.

There is another question about BWPS to be considered. We've all seen the way BWPS played out. I'm not going to comment on it myself (it would derail the thread and I'm in a small minority), but the question is this:

How do you think BWPS has affected Brian Wilson?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think it helped him. I think he felt better getting that giant ass monkey off his back.

[Mahalo]

I think Brian is too old to be worrying about the mainstream POP market. BWPS was a HUGE success. He knows that compared to his other solo stuff, as well as anything by the other "Beach Boys",  BWPS kicks the merda out of all the rest. It is by far my FAVORITE album of all time. You can't compare this to the original recordings, you will feel let down. This is totally different stuff, and I think the imitation harpsichord and tack piano is easily made up for with a CLEAN recording of Roll Plymouth Rock and Mrs. O' Learie's cow among other things...(i.e. the entire second movement).

This album may only be truly appreciated years from now, not unlike Pet Sounds was. Lord knows when I'm in my 60's I shall be schooling all the jitterbugs about what GREAT music is, and it all starts with BWPS.

BWPS has affected Brian tremendously, IMO, in a very positive manner. He feels the love we have for him, especially now that he gathered the courage to face his his biggest demon and kick it square in the balls. The world is a better place with BWPS and I can't thank  God enough for this triumph. If only Brian would read this post........

[Dancing Bear]

How do you think BWPS has affected Brian Wilson?

From his perspective, I think it was something that had to be done between the steak and the birthday cake.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Or birthday steak...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I wonder how Surf's Up would've done as a single in 67. I wouldn't be suprised it if that would've been a top 10 hit.

[mikeyj]

You can't compare this to the original recordings, you will feel let down. This is totally different stuff, and I think the imitation harpsichord and tack piano is easily made up for with a CLEAN recording of Roll Plymouth Rock and Mrs. O' Learie's cow among other things...(i.e. the entire second movement).

I agree that you can't compare it to the original recordings and that you will feel let down. But there is something so magical in those 60's recordings that just sends shivers up my spine whereas I don't get that with BWPS, though I still think its a fantastic record and am so greatful and respectful of Brian for finishing the album. I agree about Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, the BWPS version is insane... my favourite track on BWPS. But I still prefer Do You Like Worms over Roll Plymouth Rock... if only it had the lyrics recorded for it ..

[MBE]

I wonder how Surf's Up would've done as a single in 67. I wouldn't be suprised it if that would've been a top 10 hit.

I don't know if Surf's Up was good single material. It's good to sit and listen too, but I think it would go over the heads of the "teen" market that make up most of the top 40's market.

[mikeyj]

I don't know if Surf's Up was good single material. It's good to sit and listen too, but I think it would go over the heads of the "teen" market that make up most of the top 40's market.

I agree. It's not exactly a commercial sort of song.

[Bicyclerider]

I think Brian was right that "Heroes" and "Vegetables" were the single candidates from the album - Vegetables would have made a great novelty/psychedelic song on the radio at this time, especially with the more produced Smile version - a "Yellow Submarine" or "Mellow Yellow" kind of song.

[pixletwin]

Ultimately I agree with what has been said by a few others. Had Brian finished it-to a successful end or otherwise-I don't think he would be alive today. SMiLE could really have benefited from a nice cartoon ala  Yellow Submarine.

[Chris Brown]

I don't know if Surf's Up was good single material. It's good to sit and listen too, but I think it would go over the heads of the "teen" market that make up most of the top 40's market.

I agree. It's not exactly a commercial sort of song.

Brian said exactly that back in '66 (somewhere in LLVS)...something like "it's so far from a single sound; it could never be a single".  Surf's Up would have been like "A Day In the Life" in that it would not have been a single but would have probably become a legendary album track (even more so than it is). 

[Mahalo]

I thought maybe He Gives Speeches-Wonderful (ROck ME Henry) version would be a nice alternative released on a single with the harpsichord version left on the album....but what would the other side of the HGS-Wonderful single be?

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I think of Surf's Up as a step up from God Only Knows or Caroline, No. Which I guess weren't big hits, but they were both top 50, and have only grown with time. Expecially, GOK.

[MBE]

Ultimately I agree with what has been said by a few others. Had Brian finished it-to a successful end or otherwise-I don't think he would be alive today. SMiLE could really have benefited from a nice cartoon ala  Yellow Submarine.

I don't think it would have KILLED him. I mean he wasn't in that bad of shape in 1967 health wise.