What's the deal with Do You Wanna Dance?

[bellagio]

I know this isn't the most amazing topic, but I was listening to Today for the hundred-millienth time and I was once again struck by how muddy an album it is. It's muddyness is made immediately apparent by DYWD. Of all of BW's productions it is by far the muddiest sounding. It doesn't seem to have THAT many instruments happening, so why can I not pick out any of them? Does it have something to do with a more than usual limit to how many tracks they had? Maybe that's why they did All of the vox live. The rest of side one is pretty clean, but side two is a total muddy mess. Was BW just getting used to recording with more instuments, or was he going for some weird Spector thing? Maybe Brian was just in a hurry. Today is still my favorite record of theirs, I just wonder if it could've sounded better.

[MBE]

I noticed the mud with Do You Wanna Dance but don't find it to be the case on any other song. Which ones are you thinking of?

[SloopJohnB]

That's exactly what I was thinking... Do You Wanna Dance is the only track of Today! that sounds muddy to my ears... The songs on side 2 sound pretty clear to me for a 1964/5 record.

[c-man]

"Do You Wanna Dance?" was a three-stage recording, meaning it was transferred from the original multi-track tapes to two subsequent multi-track tapes for overdubs, and finally mixed down to mono as yet another overdub was being added.  It started out at cavernous-sounding Gold Star, which partly explains its murkiness.  According to my source, it was cut on 4-track, then sub-mixed down to a 3-track tape and taken to Western, where vocals were added.  Then it was transferred to yet ANOTHER 3-track tape while a second layer of vocals was added simultaneously.  Lastly, it was mixed down to mono while the guitar solo was being added.  By that time, you definitely lose a lot of definition, especially on the mandolin and the bass guitar.

There is a distinct "muddiness" apparent throughout that album and the next two or three (maybe not "Party!" so much, but definitely "Summer Days" and "Pet Sounds").  Also some distortion:  listen to the beginning of "Please Let Me Wonder" and the vocals on "She Knows Me Too Well".  The source of this was the console being used at Western in those days.  Mark Linett explains this in great detail in the June '96 issue of "EQ" magazine.  Essentially it comes down to this:  the MIC inputs on that board were phenomenal, which is why we have crisp and clear sounding multi-tracks to enjoy from various sessions.  But when they mixed it, the problem presented itself, because the LINE inputs were padded down and routed back through the MIC inputs, causing the distortion.  The Stones' records from around the same time had the same problem.  Growing up, I always found that "murky" quality somewhat appealing, as it added to the "mysteriousness" of these records.

If you haven't already, I invite you to check out my layman's description of the recording process for the "Today!" and "Summer Days" albums at my website.  Mark's exact quote from "EQ" is there under the section on "She Knows Me Too Well".   www.beachboysarchives.com

[bellagio]

Wow, that seems pretty insane for a major  recording artist!.  Even Bruce & Terry had access to an eight-track by then.It seems like they made some bad mixing decisions early on that were locked in for all of those tape transfers/overdubs.Still love all of Today but even the drums are distorted on PLMW, even the new stereo mix. Too bad Capitol couldn't lay off Brian and let him take the time he needed to get everything just right...

[c-man]

Wow, that seems pretty insane for a major  recording artist!.  Even Bruce & Terry had access to an eight-track by then.It seems like they made some bad mixing decisions early on that were locked in for all of those tape transfers/overdubs.Still love all of Today but even the drums are distorted on PLMW, even the new stereo mix. Too bad Capitol couldn't lay off Brian and let him take the time he needed to get everything just right...

Columbia was the only studio at the time with 8-track, and Brian preferred the sound of Western and Gold Star to track in.  It took Bruce (when he became a Beach Boy) to convice Brian to use Columbia's 8-track...but even then, Brian insisted on cutting the instrumental tracks at Western and Gold Star, then transferring them to one track of the 8-track at Columbia, so he was still losing a generation.   The only advantage he gained was in having 7 tracks for the vocal overdubs. 

[the captain]

I've got to agree about DYWD being the only track on that album that's particularly muddy--at least the one that stands out as sounding as such. c-man's explanation about the number of times they bounced the tracks down does go a long way toward explaining it--such an obvious reason, I'm embarrassed to have never considered the issue past the "huh, that song is muddy..." stage.

bellagio, I definitely wouldn't go so far as to sound surprised that the BBs weren't using an 8-track in 1964 or 65, though (whenever they actually cut those tracks). Plenty of artists were doing the same even for a couple of years after that.

[MBE]

Sgt Pepper was 4 track so yeah it was common. 1968 was the first time Stereo was made standard in rock music even then singles were often still mono for several years after that. Some mono mixes for radio play was being done as late as 1978.

[Shane]

I've always wondered about the quote concerning the line inputs being "padded down".  Anybody know exactly what that means?  Extra resistance in the circuitry?

[c-man]

I've always wondered about the quote concerning the line inputs being "padded down".  Anybody know exactly what that means?  Extra resistance in the circuitry?

Well, normally, a "pad" in an audio circuit means a decrease to the input or output level (like with my Groove Tubes microphone's -10db pad, and my Peavey mic pre-amp's -20db pad).  Since mic inputs are more robust that line inputs, it would make more sense for it to be the other-way-around (a MIC input padded down to route through a LINE input).  Guess we'll have to ask Mark over on his string.

[Fun Is In]

Do the early generation tapes still exist such that this recording could be ressurected without the mud? Or was it all on the same piece of tape with serial reductions?

[c-man]

Do the early generation tapes still exist such that this recording could be ressurected without the mud? Or was it all on the same piece of tape with serial reductions?

I don't think the original 4-track tape from Gold Star has surfaced.  It might have been discarded once it was overdubbed & transferred to 3-track.  The SOT material seems to come from the bounced-down 3-track, although it does include all three takes.  But, that just might mean that the three takes on the 4-track tape were ALL transferred to the 3-track, I don't know.  But the first bounced-down 3-track tape evidently exists, with the instruments in stereo.  Even if it only existed as a digital copy on SOT, that could potentially be used to sync up to the vocal tracks for a true stereo mix...the two problems with that being, (1) the vocals would seemingly have to be in mono (since they were evidently doubled as they were be transferred, therefore both layers would be locked onto one track) and (2) there would either be no guitar solo, or the early inferior one (since the final one was obviously done during the mono dubdown).