Soulful Old Man Sunshine -- When did it become known?

[the captain]

Do any of you who have been fans and/or researchers for decades happen to know when and how SOMS became known? As I understand it, there was never a completed mix of the sessions until the Hawthorne disc, and that was (obviously) the first time I heard it. But was it known to collectors and fans before that? Were there different mixes out there?

[Zander]

The tune's was documented in Brad Elliot's "Surf's Up!" book back in the '80s. I think that was the first mention of its existance. I don't think there were any copies ciruclating on bootleg until it was officially released on the EH Soundtrack...?

There is on the Dumb Angel Vol. 2 "Landlocked" CD a different mix of SOMS, but I can't tell the difference between that and the official release except the boot mix is slightly faster.

Clcik here...

http://www.bootlegzone.com/album.php?name=DA003&section=14

(spelling edit)

[PeteS]

there was never a completed mix of the sessions until the Hawthorne disc, and that was (obviously) the first time I heard it.

It's actually on "Endless Harmony" Luther (I get those two mixed up also) - I've never heard any other versions (and my version of Landlocked doesn't seem to have it.

[c-man]

As someone who's been "a fan and/or researcher for decades"...I'll tell you what I know.
Yes, the first mention of "SOMS" I ever came across was in Brad's book, late 1981 (just in case you're wondering, even though the official copyright is 1982, I had my copy before the end of '81). 

As for the discovery of the tape, that might not of been until 1992, when Leaf, Paley and Linett were scouring the vaults (and other sources) for releaseable material during the preparation of the "30 Years of Good Vibrations" box set.  That's when David played it down the phone line for Domenic Priore and myself, and implied that it had just been found.  Needless to say, we were floored, and quite dissapointed that it was not included on the box.  My impression upon hearing it was that it was an attempt to mine Stevie Wonder's sound of the late '60s, but with the harmonic assault of the Boys added, of course.  I think David played it twice, then of course I never heard it again until 1998 when it was released.

Regarding the mix(es)...ESQ published a great interview with Rick Henn, in which he states there was no "final mix" of sorts because the vocals were not considered to be finished "master" vocals (the sessions fell apart before Carl's "final" lead was taped).  So, at some point, Rick took the various "rough" mixes (including Carl's "work" or "scratch" lead vocal) up to Dennis Dragon's place.  DD then spliced together the various rough mixes into the finished product.  I'm not positive, but I imagine Rick held onto the master.  Incidentally, when I recently asked Dennis Dragon about this, he couldn't even remember it, although he admitted he probably did do it, since he was quite a wiz with the ol' tape and razor blade.

Craig

[chris.metcalfe]

Was it not listed in the back of the Byron Preiss book (1979)?

[Wilsonista]

Craig, wasn't there sheet music for SOMS? I believe the song had been recorded and released on a Brian tribute CD prior to the release of the BB version, correct?

[PongHit]

... there was no "final mix" of sorts because the vocals were not considered to be finished "master" vocals (the sessions fell apart before Carl's "final" lead was taped). ...

If you listen closely, you can hear Carl mess-up a line -- he sings "Soulful old man SHUNshine."  Maybe this is one of the reasons it wasn't officially released sooner?

[grillo]

Yeah, I actually heard the reason it didn't come out on the box set was because Carl was unhappy with his vocal, although it is nowhere near as bad as It's Over Now.

[the captain]

... there was no "final mix" of sorts because the vocals were not considered to be finished "master" vocals (the sessions fell apart before Carl's "final" lead was taped). ...

If you listen closely, you can hear Carl mess-up a line -- he sings "Soulful old man SHUNshine."  Maybe this is one of the reasons it wasn't officially released sooner?

I'm aware of that flub, but to say that a simple, single mistake kept an otherwise great song from being released would be idiotic--even back then, to overdub a single line was simple. Carl may not have liked his vocals overall, but shunshine itself is no reason to cease work and not release a song. As others have said, there wasn't even a final mix of the song in existence until one was edited together, so that single flub would not be anywhere near the largest problem.

[grillo]

I agree that it seems bizarre, especially when we consider all the other weird BB vocal 'mistakes' that did get released, but I'm sticking with the story as I heard it. I just can't imagine why this song was abandoned after so much work went into it, other than that it sounds unlike any other BB song from that, or any, period. Maybe they realized it would never fit on the album and just junked it?

[c-man]

According to Rick, the Boys spent a couple of days recording the vocals, but were more into joking around then being serious.  When Rick "cracked the whip", that was it...they weren't gonna be pushed around by him, so it got dropped.  Meaning, Carl either wasn't interested or didn't have the chance to "fix" his lead vocal.   

23 years later, when the box set came out, he probably vetoed it for the same reason he tried to stop the alternate verson of "GOK" from going out on the "Pet Sounds" box, and the same reason Brian wouldn't let "Let Him Run Wild" and Al wouldn't let "Loop De Loop" on the first box set.  These guys may sometimes have a strange sense of perfectionism, considering some of the stuff they HAVE sanctioned for release, but they DO apparently have some twisted sense of it.

And, I just scanned the back of the Preiss book, but I don't see that title.  There are a couple of similar titles there, like "Old Master Painter" and "Come To The Sunshine", though...

[Andrew G. Doe]

... there was no "final mix" of sorts because the vocals were not considered to be finished "master" vocals (the sessions fell apart before Carl's "final" lead was taped). ...

If you listen closely, you can hear Carl mess-up a line -- he sings "Soulful old man SHUNshine."  Maybe this is one of the reasons it wasn't officially released sooner?

I'm aware of that flub, but to say that a simple, single mistake kept an otherwise great song from being released would be idiotic--even back then, to overdub a single line was simple. Carl may not have liked his vocals overall, but shunshine itself is no reason to cease work and not release a song. As others have said, there wasn't even a final mix of the song in existence until one was edited together, so that single flub would not be anywhere near the largest problem.

The song didn't exist as anything other than several reels of uncomped tape until work started on the 1993 Box set, which is why it wasn't released back in the 70s. In 1992 it was assembled using the completed instrumental track and at least two tapes of vocals, including Carl's work vocal. That's when he vetoed it because of the "shunsine" flub. (FYI, the same holds true of "4th Of July" - Carl's scratch vocal is from a saftey copy, and the flute tag from yet another tape.)

[Christian]

wasn't there sheet music for SOMS? I believe the song had been recorded and released on a Brian tribute CD prior to the release of the BB version, correct?

Right,  Manfred Schmidt recorded a version in 1992. It is available on the Japanese sampler "In My Room: A Beach Boys Tribute for the homeless of California" (MMCD 1020). He got the song from a publishing company sheet music I bought at Rockaway Records. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

These guys may sometimes have a strange sense of perfectionism, considering some of the stuff they HAVE sanctioned for release...

I agree with you on that...

I'm surprised Carl would nix an outstanding song like "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" because of a split second sound, that quite frankly, I never noticed, then allow "It's Over Now" to be released, which I can hardly listen to because of the lead vocal!

And that Brian would object to "Let Him Run Wild" being included on the boxed set (I know he has his personal reasons), and then allow that terrible and embarrassing demo of "Still I Dream Of It" to be included on IJWMFTT.

And finally, that Al might object to "Loop De Loop" being included on the boxed set. Considering Al's lack of output and representation, I'm surprised he would object to ANY of his songs being included...

[Rocker]

And finally, that Al might object to "Loop De Loop" being included on the boxed set. Considering Al's lack of output and representation, I'm surprised he would object to ANY of his songs being included...

Al wanted to, and did, re-record "Loop de loop" so it was like he wanted to have it. It was released on EH.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And finally, that Al might object to "Loop De Loop" being included on the boxed set. Considering Al's lack of output and representation, I'm surprised he would object to ANY of his songs being included...

Al wanted to, and did, re-record "Loop de loop" so it was like he wanted to have it. It was released on EH.

And does the revised version sound better ? Nope.

BTW, though this is OT-ish, the version of "Melekalikimaka" on Ultimate Christmas is also partly re-recorded, even though this isn't noted. Alan sings different lyrics in at least two places.

[Rocker]

And finally, that Al might object to "Loop De Loop" being included on the boxed set. Considering Al's lack of output and representation, I'm surprised he would object to ANY of his songs being included...

Al wanted to, and did, re-record "Loop de loop" so it was like he wanted to have it. It was released on EH.

And does the revised version sound better ? Nope.

His singing on the EH-version sounds much better to these ears....
But whatever, it was his decision. He felt it didn't sound right, so he re-recorded it.

[c-man]

I'm surprised Carl would nix an outstanding song like "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" because of a split second sound, that quite frankly, I never noticed, then allow "It's Over Now" to be released, which I can hardly listen to because of the lead vocal!

It sounds a bit better sped up...it was mastered too slow on the released version. 
I believe the same is true for "Still I Dream Of It".
At least on the original pressing...they may have gone back and remastered later
pressings, but I've never heard one way or the other, and I only have the one copy.

[c-man]

Just so we're clear, I'm talking about "It's Over Now" direcetly above, not "Soulful Old Man Sunshine".

Although, "SOMS" DOES sound a bit sluggish tempo-wise, come to think of it...maybe that's just me.

[the captain]

The song didn't exist as anything other than several reels of uncomped tape until work started on the 1993 Box set, which is why it wasn't released back in the 70s. In 1992 it was assembled using the completed instrumental track and at least two tapes of vocals, including Carl's work vocal. That's when he vetoed it because of the "shunsine" flub. (FYI, the same holds true of "4th Of July" - Carl's scratch vocal is from a saftey copy, and the flute tag from yet another tape.)

Andrew--I realized it hadn't been assembled. My question, really, is more along the lines of why didn't they complete--and by complete, I mean assemble--it earlier? Does anyone know? It was obviously a very good song. One would think someone would have thought it was worth the work at some point in the 70s, when so much of the material started to be subpar, it was worth it to dig through those tapes and put them together, and finish if necessary (ie, overdub a single line, "shunshine"--by far the easiest part of finishing it). Have any of the guys ever discussed why they worked on it, then left it in the can unfinished?

[Sheriff John Stone]

And finally, that Al might object to "Loop De Loop" being included on the boxed set. Considering Al's lack of output and representation, I'm surprised he would object to ANY of his songs being included...

Al wanted to, and did, re-record "Loop de loop" so it was like he wanted to have it. It was released on EH.

I'm aware of that. But my point was Al took a chance. I mean, how did he know there was gonna be another opportunity for him to submit that song for release - in his career/lifetime. I wonder if he was thinking, "You know, years from now, there's gonna be this compilation called "Endless Harmony", and they'll need some material, so I think I wait and re-record "Loop De Loop" then".

Come to think of it, we're talking about The Beach Boys, MAYBE HE WAS thinking that!

[c-man]

The song didn't exist as anything other than several reels of uncomped tape until work started on the 1993 Box set, which is why it wasn't released back in the 70s. In 1992 it was assembled using the completed instrumental track and at least two tapes of vocals, including Carl's work vocal. That's when he vetoed it because of the "shunsine" flub. (FYI, the same holds true of "4th Of July" - Carl's scratch vocal is from a saftey copy, and the flute tag from yet another tape.)

Andrew--I realized it hadn't been assembled. My question, really, is more along the lines of why didn't they complete--and by complete, I mean assemble--it earlier? Does anyone know? It was obviously a very good song. One would think someone would have thought it was worth the work at some point in the 70s, when so much of the material started to be subpar, it was worth it to dig through those tapes and put them together, and finish if necessary (ie, overdub a single line, "shunshine"--by far the easiest part of finishing it). Have any of the guys ever discussed why they worked on it, then left it in the can unfinished?

Well, I think the answer lies it what Rick said in ESQ (June '97, a full year before the BBs version was even released).  He basically says the Boys didn't take the song all that seriously while they were recording it.  Mike kept goofing off and making Carl crack up.  While Rick was teaching the Boys the various vocal parts, they started whining and complaining it was too hard, and at the final session, they were just messing around too much.  Rick says he kinda yelled at them, and that was IT...the session dissolved, and the song was never worked on again.  Knowing the Boys, they probably never listened to or thought about the song again until '92, when it was presented to them for consideration on the box set. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm surprised Carl would nix an outstanding song like "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" because of a split second sound, that quite frankly, I never noticed, then allow "It's Over Now" to be released, which I can hardly listen to because of the lead vocal!

It sounds a bit better sped up...it was mastered too slow on the released version. 
I believe the same is true for "Still I Dream Of It".
At least on the original pressing...they may have gone back and remastered later
pressings, but I've never heard one way or the other, and I only have the one copy.

Yes, I have an old, hissy-sounding cassette of unreleased Beach Boys' stuff, and "It's Over Now" is on that tape with, I'm assuming, the correct speed. And Carl's vocal, as well as Marilyn's, sounds fine.

I think I'm starting to sound like Andy Rooney, but...

Who is responsible for these gliches on these major releases by one of the greatest bands of all time? On the boxed set, isn't there something wrong with "Do You Like Worms"? And then there's the original CD release of MIU with the wrong takes, and "Honking Down The Highway" without the drum intro, and the problem with "Endless Harmony" from Keeping The Summer Alive.

Don't record companies have people like "proof readers" who actually LISTEN to the product before it gets released?

Did you ever wonder why....

[c-man]

Some further enlightenment from Rick's ESQ interview:

"I think that the feel, the shuffle-swingy feel of the thing was so far left field for the Beach Boys that they just weren't into it at the time.  So it never really got mixed properly". 

"They did consider it for the boxed set, and I guess when they dropped one CD out of the set, they decided not to include it".

[Andrew G. Doe]

Some further enlightenment from Rick's ESQ interview:

"I think that the feel, the shuffle-swingy feel of the thing was so far left field for the Beach Boys that they just weren't into it at the time.  So it never really got mixed properly". 

"They did consider it for the boxed set, and I guess when they dropped one CD out of the set, they decided not to include it".

Interesting - I was involved (albeit peripherally) with the 1993 box from a very early stage, and it was always going to be 5CDs... unless he means when the idea of making one CD a kinda 'official boot' was developed (to save money s well as give the fans something extra).