1968: the Year of the Beach Boys Waltz?

[busy doin nothin]

I was listening to the Friends/20/20 two-fer and it struck me how many waltzes Brian & the Boys recorded in 1968.  I count at least four -- Friends, Be Here in the Morning, Time to Get Alone, and I Went to Sleep -- not to mention Cabinessence, which was obviously recorded earlier but I think is also a waltz.  There may be others I'm forgetting.  It seems to me that 3/4 time is pretty unusual in rock and roll, but Brian was evidently pretty into it in this period.  Does anyone know if he ever commented on this?  Was it considered noteworthy at the time (or since)?  I love all those songs, plus a couple other early 70s BB waltzes -- Hold on Dear Brother and the Holland Big Sur.

[the captain]

I wouldn't go so far as to call using 3 in rock as unusual (especially if you expand from 3/4 to include 6/8 and 12/8, at which point you could incorporate the entire swing/triplet feel, meaning almost all of it), but there is no doubt BW was writing in 3/4 quite a bit in those years. Perhaps it was the propulsive-yet-relaxed feel that a person can get when working in 3...it wasn't rocking, but it wasn't putting anyone to sleep (at least not in a bad way)--it maintains motion. I love his writing in that time frame, including those that are in 3.

(Cabinessence, btw, isn't exclusively in 3. The verses aren't, but the Iron Horse and Grand Coulee parts are.)

[bossaroo]

interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_(Beach_Boys_song)

Friends (Beach Boys song)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Single by The Beach Boys
from the album Friends
Released    April 8, 1968
Format    Vinyl
Recorded    March, 1968
Genre    Pop music
Length    4 min 27 sec
Label    Capitol Records
Producer(s)    The Beach Boys
Chart positions

• #47 (US) • #25 (UK)
The Beach Boys singles chronology
"Darlin'"/"Here Today" (1967)    
"Friends"/"Little Bird" (1968)    
"Do It Again"/"Wake The World" (1968)

"Friends" is a song written by Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, Dennis Wilson and Al Jardine for the American pop band The Beach Boys. It was released on their 1968 album Friends. It was also released as a single, with the B-side of the single being "Little Bird". The single peaked at #47 in the U.S. and #25 in the U.K. The song was recorded in March, 1968.

Brian once stated, "The cut 'Friends' was, in my opinion, a good way to keep waltzes alive. Carl had sung 'Darlin'' and some others before and now he spearheaded this cut with a heavy vocal performance."

As Peter Reum, a Beach Boys historian, stated "'Friends' is a waltz, and it's been used at the Berklee College of Music to teach students how to write in 3/4 time."


    * Written by: Brian Wilson/Carl Wilson/Dennis Wilson/Al Jardine
    * Album: Friends
    * Time: 2 min 30 sec
    * Produced by: The Beach Boys
    * Carl Wilson: Lead Vocals

[busy doin nothin]

Those quotes from Brian and Peter Reum about "Friends" originated in the two-fer liner notes, which was actually what got me started thinking about the waltz issue.  Brian's 1990 liner notes contain some inaccuracies and whoppers, but he does make some interesting musical comments, and he specifically refers to "Friends" (as quoted above), TTGA, and Cabinessence as waltzes.

This morning I was listening to Wild Honey and it seems to me that you can add Let the Wind Blow to the waltz list as well.

Luther -- your description of Brian's style circa 1968 is perfect ("propulsive yet relaxed").  One question, though -- how can you tell, by listening to a piece of music, if it is in 3/4 or 6/8 time?  Is it just a matter of tempo?

[PeteS]

I wouldn't go so far as to call using 3 in rock as unusual (especially if you expand from 3/4 to include 6/8 and 12/8,

6/8 is essentially (usually) 2 beats per bar as opposed to 3  - 2 groups of 3. I'm also a big fan of Brian's use of triplets (butI think the third Shin's album is the best of the three so what do I know huh?

[Chris Brown]

Here's a good way to explain the 3/4 vs. 6/8 thing:

3/4: Friends, Time to Get Alone

6/8: Surfer Girl, Warmth of the Sun

Just basically a matter of where the beat is emphasized.  I really can't help you much beyond that...it's just something you hear.

[the captain]

Re 3/4 v 6/8, sometimes there IS no difference unless someone wrote it down and thus made it what it is. PeteS and Chris Brown are both correct, but sometimes a person could notate the same thing either way without one being "wrong." (Of course, a person COULD notate anything in any way, but sometimes that would be ridiculous and isn't the point of this.)

There is a story that ex-Zappa guitarist and transcriptionist Steve Vai tells about FZ hiring him to transcribe (i.e., write out) recorded parts from concerts that had never been written before. Apparently, he and/or Zappa would be paid more if it were written with more or less (I don't remember which, or know anything about how such work pays)  measures, and the piece could have very reasonably been done in either.
 Zappa told Vai to do it so they would make less $, as he believed that was the more honest thing to do. Crazy. But illustrative of the fact that notation isn't an end-all, too. Sometimes the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 amounts to the numbers at the start of the piece and whether you're seeing quarter or eighth notes getting a beat. And that's about it.

(12/8 is a different thing altogether, in which you can pretty clearly feel 4 beats per measure, but each of them is divided into three equal parts.)

[Artie]

Re 3/4 v 6/8, sometimes there IS no difference unless someone wrote it down and thus made it what it is. PeteS and Chris Brown are both correct, but sometimes a person could notate the same thing either way without one being "wrong."

To put it in basic terms, a 3/4 time tune would have snare hits on beats 2 and 3 of every bar (like Friends). A 6/8 tune only has a snare hit on beat 4 of the 6 (Surfer Girl, Kiss Me Baby, etc.). The latter being quite common in rock, the former being somewhat rare. The two are totally different feels. There is always a difference between the two.

[the captain]

Not wanting to get into it here, but that isn't true. You're correct in saying that there are traditionally distinct emphases within the two, but that doesn't mean something can't be written in one or the other. It may be terribly, slightly or not at all cumbersome to do so, but it can always be done. And I think you're mistaken in trying to talk about where a snare hit goes, because of course that is misleading. In 3/4 time, the emphasized beat would traditionally be beat one, and so snare hits on two and three might make sense with a hard kick to emphasize one, for example. But by no means would that always be the case, as a person can write or arrange anything in any way s/he wants to.

Edit: I decided to remove that last line--made me out to be more of a jerk than I really am (and we mostly all know I am one). My real point, and I stand strongly behind it, is that notation is just a (to my mind) somewhat artificial (albeit very necessary) way to represent sound, just like language is a way to represent thought. And to try to affix rules about where the accent is in this or that, or to say that you MUST do this and CAN'T do that, is not altogether necessary. I am not anti-notation or anti-tradition, and anyone interested in music would be well-served to study it formally in some capacity, be it basic piano or guitar or more complex theory. But once a person knows and understands those basic traditions, it is just as important to understand where they fit into the overall music experience... The tradition of beat one being emphasized in 3/4 time is simply an interpretation. It isn't based on anything other than Western ears of the years in which notation was developed saying there was a natural emphasis on beat one. That said, there is no reason you can't write in 3/4 without emphasizing beat one. 4/4 time, in strict Western tradition, emphasizes one and three. Of course, rock famously emphasizes two and four in the same time signature. Is one wrong? One certainly was considered wrong by many backward-facing traditionalists, as well as sinful, sexual and whatever else. (And now to clap on one and three in a song in 4/4 is probably considered equally wrong by those who grew up entirely on rock.)

There you have it: Long, drawn out attempt to cool off my rant. But I stand behind my thoughts.

[Chris Brown]

I actually enjoyed the rant Luther!  I'm actually pretty anti-formal musical training based on some experiences I've had.  You're probably better at explaining it than I would be, but the basic point you have makes perfect sense.  We say something like Surfer Girl is in 6/8 but you could easily write it out to be in 3/4.  I personally don't know if that would make any difference in how the sound came out, but it would still work.  I think the most fun thing as a writer you can do with rhythm is mess with which beats are emphasized, and use time signatures in more inventive ways.  Kind of a fun challenge, especially once you get into 5/4 and 7/4 type stuff. 

[matt-zeus]

Well 3/4 has more of an 'Oompah' feel (Time to get alone) which may sound more like - Kick drum, snare, snare, whereas 6/8 has a more smoother feel with more space between the beats like - kick drum, hi hat, hi hat, snare, hi hat hi hat, plus the tempo is usually faster to accomodate the longer bar. Good examples include blues stuff by Led Zeppelin (I'm gonna crawl) and Queen (We are the champions).

[Artie]

  We say something like Surfer Girl is in 6/8 but you could easily write it out to be in 3/4.  I personally don't know if that would make any difference in how the sound came out, but it would still work. 

It would work written in any time signature theoretically, it would just change the entire feel of the song. Surfer Girl in 3/4 becomes a totally different song. Lit (bam bam) tle (bam bam) surf (bam bam) er (bam bam)...you could work it out in 5/4 if you want to...I do a version of "My Favorite Things," a traditional waltz, in 5/4 time. Gives it extra jazzy edge.

6/8 and 12/8 are siblings of a slow swing. Play a 12/8 beat and take out the middle beat of each three, you have a swing. It is hard to differentiate between slow swing and 12/8 - when we have a substitute drummer and go into "At Last" or "Unforgettable" for examples, I can call the beat as 12/8 or slow swing, and it works. But I can't call it a a waltz (3/4 time).

We're splitting hairs, but it is a true musical discussion between knowledgable people.

[busy doin nothin]

Thanks to the thoughtful and insightful comments on this thread, I can now hear the 6/8 rhythm of Surfer Girl and The Warmth of the Sun.  I think "Your Summer Dream" (one of my all time favorites) also is a 6/8 song, is it not? (and maybe "keep an eye on summer," too?

As to how common these types of time signatures are -- I looked through a Beatles songbook I have and only found 2 songs (out of about 50) that were not either 4/4 or 2/2 --
Fool on the Hill and Lucy in the Sky. 

I guess my conclusion is that (as we all knew already anyway) Brian was an absolute original.  He used unusual chords, melodies, instruments, arrangements -- and time signatures too.

[Artie]

I think "Your Summer Dream" (one of my all time favorites) also is a 6/8 song, is it not? (and maybe "keep an eye on summer," too?

Yep, you're exactly right. A favorite time sig of the young Mr. Wilson. Note also "Summer Means New Love"...

[Chris Brown]

Girls on the Beach too.

[whichonespink]

As to how common these types of time signatures are -- I looked through a Beatles songbook I have and only found 2 songs (out of about 50) that were not either 4/4 or 2/2 --
Fool on the Hill and Lucy in the Sky. 

What about For No One, I Me Mine, Dig A Pony (or even Revolution #9  )?
Happiness Is A Warm Gun goes through all sorts of funky time signatures, too...

I'm sure there's more, those were just off the top of my head

[Artie]

What about For No One, I Me Mine, Dig A Pony (or even Revolution #9  )?
Happiness Is A Warm Gun goes through all sorts of funky time signatures, too...

I'm sure there's more, those were just off the top of my head
[/quote]

For No One is straight 4/4. I Me Mine and Dig A Pony are 6/8 (I Me Mine being 6/8 in 2). Baby's in Black is also in 6/8.

[Artie]

A great example of a modern waltz (3/4 time) is I'm In Great Shape from BWPS.  It is a distinctly different feel from 6/8. Another thought I had  - Let's Go Away For Awhile starts in 4/4 and shifts into 6/8. It's like two different tunes in one.

[John]

What about For No One, I Me Mine, Dig A Pony (or even Revolution #9  )?
Happiness Is A Warm Gun goes through all sorts of funky time signatures, too...

I'm sure there's more, those were just off the top of my head

For No One is straight 4/4. I Me Mine and Dig A Pony are 6/8 (I Me Mine being 6/8 in 2). Baby's in Black is also in 6/8.

She Said She Said is in a funny time signature; You've Got To Hide Your Love Away is what, 12/8?

[Chris Brown]

She Said She Said is 4/4, they just accent different beats so it sounds like a funny time signature in parts. 

[bossaroo]

Doesn't "She Said She Said" change time signatures?  It goes 3/4 on the bridge.

[Chris Brown]

Doesn't "She Said She Said" change time signatures?  It goes 3/4 on the bridge.

You're probably right...I haven't heard it in ages, just going from memory. 

[busy doin nothin]

Another one to add -- I was listening to Holland again and it sure sounds to me like "Sail on Sailor" is another 6/8 song.

[busy doin nothin]

I think "Solar System" is a waltz too.

[the captain]

I don't believe I've ever seen quite so much time and energy dedicated to counting to three.