Can't Wait Too Long

[Andrew G. Doe]

Small prob with "CWTL" being Smile out-takes - the earliest session was October 1967. 

... assuming that section was called CWTL at the time it was recorded, and not just salvaged from the sessions of another song. On the SoT set (I'm going by memory... it might have been Archaeology, or even another set), the final descending bass riff was labelled "Heroes".

That's on the 3CD SOT Smile boot, I think. And yes, it's labelled as "H&V". But does it sound anything like any version of "H&V" you've ever heard ? Nope. Simple error - there's a track on, I think, Deep Sea Treasures that's listed as being cut in 1965... yet there's a clip of "GV" on it. Should I take this as proof that "GV" was recorded at least a year earlier than all existing documentation indicates ? 

So many SMiLE songs were renamed, or became something else... can it be proven definitively that those sections I'm refering to were recorded as CWTL, and that they were definitely recorded in or after October 1967?

Yes: there are AFM sheets for "BWTL/CWTL" dated 10/28/67, 11/1/67, 7/24/68 & 7/26/68 listing the apposite instumentation. Of course, the main "CWTL" riff originates in the original version of "Wind Chimes" (3rd section), but then Brian was forever doing that kind of thing. The recordings we know as "CWTL" are post-Smile (indeed, post-Smiley Smile) sessions.

[The Shift]

I hear the Windchimes link in my head right now! 

But despite the lack of AFM sheets I'm gonna cling to my theory cos it give me a degree of pleasure! I'll continue to assume they're SMiLE extracts spliced into a later session's output, and hope that one day, in the far-off future, my great grandchildren log on to find the evidence offered for downloading at beachboyscentral.com.

And then read Midnight's Children and find further confirmation!

And no, I don't assume the bootleggers are right every time. It was just a very odd slip that's always had me wondering. Can't think of the Deep Sea Treasures slip you mention but I'll listen to it soon - can you point me at it off the top of your head?

 

[Andrew G. Doe]

DST Vol. 1 track 11 - "We Blew It (65 sessions)". Some kind of promo thing, with a sped-up clip of the "GV" 45 in the background.

[buddhahat]

I hear the Windchimes link in my head right now! 

But despite the lack of AFM sheets I'm gonna cling to my theory cos it give me a degree of pleasure! I'll continue to assume they're SMiLE extracts spliced into a later session's output, and hope that one day, in the far-off future, my great grandchildren log on to find the evidence offered for downloading at beachboyscentral.com.

Wee Helper, I love the 'campfire intro' version of CWTL you refer to. I first heard this on a Smile bootleg and find it difficult to accept that these beautiful harmonies don't come from the Smile sessions despite no evidence to support the hunch. They just sound so delicate and breezy  - amongs my favourite pieces of BB music. I recently did a Smile mix and used this version of CWTL with the descending bassline tag from the Smiley twofer version spliced on the end. This lead beautifully into Love to Say dada - I think these pieces (the tag and dada) sound really similar actually.

[The Shift]

Thanks Buddha,

I don't follow the "available evidence" line on this one, too much like the government's "best available intelligence at the time" line. There's too much detail missing from the SMiLE era as it is and this might just be another example. Cripes, perhaps this session was one of the "trashed" Columbia vocal sessions!

Whatever, whether it's eventually shown to be SMiLE or not, in my fantasy picture of SMiLE as it stands now, IT IS and that's what counts, to me.

I remember during the SMiLE premier in London some dude in the front gushing "yes" when the band started the vocals during the Fire music. Like, it was part of HIS dream theory that those vocals had always belonged there. Even though they were part of "Fall Breaks", the idea that they were once part of the SMiLE album's "Fire" music had always been HIS fantasy, although there's no documentary evidence to suggest they belong there. All power to the guy.

It's important that we're all allowed to dream and entertain our own fantasies.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Thanks Buddha,

I don't follow the "available evidence" line on this one, too much like the government's "best available intelligence at the time" line. There's too much detail missing from the SMiLE era as it is and this might just be another example. Cripes, perhaps this session was one of the "trashed" Columbia vocal sessions!

Whatever, whether it's eventually shown to be SMiLE or not, in my fantasy picture of SMiLE as it stands now, IT IS and that's what counts, to me.

I remember during the SMiLE premier in London some dude in the front gushing "yes" when the band started the vocals during the Fire music. Like, it was part of HIS dream theory that those vocals had always belonged there. Even though they were part of "Fall Breaks", the idea that they were once part of the SMiLE album's "Fire" music had always been HIS fantasy, although there's no documentary evidence to suggest they belong there. All power to the guy.

It's important that we're all allowed to dream and entertain our own fantasies.

I think that dude was me. 

And yes, there is detail missing from the Smile sessions, but the AFM sheets from 1967 & 1968 clearly refer to the sections we know. Plus, assoerted band members have denied "CWTL" was  a Smile discard.

[grillo]

What I don't follow is why it matters if it was a smile track or not (and it wasn't). It's a great, if unfinished, song that incorporates many of BW's different production styles and some sweet vox. You can put it on your smile mix, just like I can put Guess I'm Dumb on my Pet Sounds mix. Doesn't mean that's when it's from or what is was for. Is this confusion all from that old Smile boot? Man, I had no idea so many people had that.

[Sheriff John Stone]

What I don't follow is why it matters if it was a smile track or not (and it wasn't).

I'd like to attempt to answer your question, grillo, but just the fact that you asked it might mean you won't understand my response.

I take The Beach Boys music seriously, probably too seriously. That's why I'm sitting at the computer typing this on a Thursday night, when I could be/should be doing a dozen other things.

Of all the BB/BW music I hold sacred, none is more sacred than the SMiLE sessions. For decades now, I've been trying to "spread the word" about SMiLE by recording numerous cassettes and CD's. I've tried, with varying degrees of success, to convert/enlighten parents, siblings, friends, co-workers, and various music fans. So I can relate to any SMiLE "nuts", and I use that term affectionately.

Therefore, to me, it is important that I try to stay as accurate as possible in dispersing any information about SMiLE. I guess it's just a personality trait or something, but I have the desire to find out as much information as I can, and basically, store the facts and throw out the myths. And that carries over to the SMiLE fan mixes I''ve been making recently. If it ain't a SMiLE track, I don't know if I wanna include it. There are other compilations I can put it on. It's harmless fun, really. A little obssessive compulsive, but still harmless.

Does that make any sense? 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I take The Beach Boys music seriously, probably too seriously. That's why I'm sitting at the computer typing this on a Thursday night, when I could be/should be doing a dozen other things.

Of all the BB/BW music I hold sacred, none is more sacred than the SMiLE sessions. For decades now, I've been trying to "spread the word" about SMiLE by recording numerous cassettes and CD's. I've tried, with varying degrees of success, to convert/enlighten parents, siblings, friends, co-workers, and various music fans. So I can relate to any SMiLE "nuts", and I use that term affectionately.

Therefore, to me, it is important that I try to stay as accurate as possible in dispersing any information about SMiLE. I guess it's just a personality trait or something, but I have the desire to find out as much information as I can, and basically, store the facts and throw out the myths. And that carries over to the SMiLE fan mixes I''ve been making recently. If it ain't a SMiLE track, I don't know if I wanna include it. There are other compilations I can put it on. It's harmless fun, really. A little obssessive compulsive, but still harmless.

Does that make any sense? 

Makes perfect sense to me, mah soul bro' - sounds like you an' me be singing from th' same hymn sheet. 

[Bicyclerider]

Didn't Brian include Can't Wait Too Long on his first SMile live concert title list?  I know he included things like Diamondhead and Time to Get Alone.  Since Brian never finished Smile, you could put some of these titles (and Mama Says and Cool Cool Water from Wild Honey sessions) in a Smile mix that could come from, say, late 1967 IF he had finished it at that time.  Who's to say what would have been included then?

[grillo]

I'm totally with you on the whole converting the unelightened thing and the reading/writing about the BB when I should be doing anything else thing, but CWTL was recorded AFTER what most people consider the Smile period, so what is there to argue about? Had Smile come out after SS or WH it very well may have included CWTL, but it didn't, and Smile '66/'67 is what most people consider to be smile. I guess you could argue that, since it was gonna come out in '70/'71 that Sail Plane Song might be a Smile relic. At some point there must be a line to draw. Nonetheless, I admire all those who are spreading the word and trying to do it as accurately as possible.

[buddhahat]

Thanks Buddha,

I don't follow the "available evidence" line on this one, too much like the government's "best available intelligence at the time" line. There's too much detail missing from the SMiLE era as it is and this might just be another example. Cripes, perhaps this session was one of the "trashed" Columbia vocal sessions!

Whatever, whether it's eventually shown to be SMiLE or not, in my fantasy picture of SMiLE as it stands now, IT IS and that's what counts, to me.

I remember during the SMiLE premier in London some dude in the front gushing "yes" when the band started the vocals during the Fire music. Like, it was part of HIS dream theory that those vocals had always belonged there. Even though they were part of "Fall Breaks", the idea that they were once part of the SMiLE album's "Fire" music had always been HIS fantasy, although there's no documentary evidence to suggest they belong there. All power to the guy.

It's important that we're all allowed to dream and entertain our own fantasies.

I think researching the facts is important but ironically the more we discover about Smile the less magical it will become imo. Therefore long live the fantasies, facts be damned! I do think the accapella parts sound Smile and in my fantasy they were recorded originally as part of Wind Chimes (don't tell me ... wrong key), or as a variation of WC as With Me Tonight seems to be a variation of Vegetables. I guess in the face of all available evidence this is foolish, but I think you have to go with your hunches sometimes.

My other Smile hunch is that the 'new' melody to Song For Children (the clarinet part) is vintage 66 - I'm convinced of this!

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm totally with you on the whole converting the unelightened thing and the reading/writing about the BB when I should be doing anything else thing, but CWTL was recorded AFTER what most people consider the Smile period, so what is there to argue about?

Thanks for the response, grillo. This is good conversation, and I appreciate it.

I'm not really arguing about CWTL, I'm just inquiring about it. That's why I started the thread. I really do want to know if ANY OF IT originated during the 66-67 SMiLE sessions. I knew there were several experts on this message board, yourself included, who could separate fact from fiction.

The only problem is, I'm kinda back where I started from - almost. I know as FACT that the earliest recording session for CWTL was October 1967. However, was ANY of that session a continuation of ANY part that was BORN in the 66-67 sessions? The majority of the posters said no, that it was considered a new song in October 1967. However, a few think it MIGHT'VE had its roots in the SMiLE sessions. Of course that's speculation, and I understand that.

And I can live with that. I don't mind, I love this stuff. Give me 40 SMiLE tracks and my CD burner, and I'm Brian Wilson in my home computer room! I can almost feel what he was going through, with the obsessive tinkering and rearranging. I've burned CD's already and threw them out before I even listened to them entirely because something didn't flow right. And as you mentioned, grillo, I've added post-SMiLE tracks because they fit the feel. Back in the cassette days, I used to go - Do You Dig Worms/Til I Die/Can't Wait Too Long/Cool Cool Water. Hey, it sounded good to me and I needed to fill up a 90 min. tape. Anyway...

Thanks, everyone, for your responses, and I'd like to keep the thread going. Would anybody like to share their thoughts on Tones/Tune X? Yes, I'm debating whether to include it on my next fan mix. 
 

[grillo]

Sheriff John Stone,
While I'd like to consider myself an expert, I'm really just an obsessive fan who gets his info from all the usual sources, but thanks for the complement! About Tones; is there a question about when it was recorded, or what it was intended for? I get confused about all this new info I've read on these boards. Is the suggestion that it may be a Carl tune? It's the track with all the marimbas, right? Or is that holliday? Damn, I really am confused, and me with no CD's nearby to reference!!!!!!

[Andrew G. Doe]

"Tones (Tune X)" was long held to be a Smile track, but it turns out that the song that is correctly titled "Tones" isn't a BW song at all, but one of carl's.

Er, I think.

[Bill Barnyard]

I might include songs that were written during the Smile era (not just recorded). Who knows when CWTL was written or Diamond Head? Cool Cool Water was written in March 67; so in theory that could go into your Smile mix. You're Welcome was written and recorded during the Smile era but was never meant for the album but it can fit in quite easily.

 

[Sheriff John Stone]

About Tones; is there a question about when it was recorded, or what it was intended for? Is the suggestion that it may be a Carl tune?

All of the above! Actually, Tones is a cello-driven instrumental, recorded later (?) in the SMiLE sessions, believed to be composed by Carl (or maybe Brian!), and probably not intended for SMiLE.  Or was it? Darn, there's so many great places to put it...

I might include songs that were written during the Smile era (not just recorded). Who knows when CWTL was written or Diamond Head? Cool Cool Water was written in March 67; so in theory that could go into your Smile mix. You're Welcome was written and recorded during the Smile era but was never meant for the album but it can fit in quite easily.

I was hoping Brian would've included "You're Welcome" in BWPS because I still think it's the best opening song there is for SMiLE. Follow "You're Welcome" with "Do You Like Worms" and you're off to the races! I digress...Anybody use "Tones" in their mix?

[SloopJohnB]

Anybody use "Tones" in their mix?

I do... But as for CWTL, I include it as a bonus track. On a CD, after a "regular" fan-mix of SMiLE, there's always some room left... So why not use it? But I would personally never include it in a "real SMiLE tracklisting"...

[buddhahat]

I was hoping Brian would've included "You're Welcome" in BWPS because I still think it's the best opening song there is for SMiLE. Follow "You're Welcome" with "Do You Like Worms" and you're off to the races! I digress...Anybody use "Tones" in their mix?

hey I might try You're Welcome as an opener followed by Plymouth rock - but then where to place Our Prayer?! I always think Heroes sounds weird following Our Prayer whereas Good Vibrations seems to fit better imo.

Anyway I digress too. I don't use Tune X in mixes really but it always strikes me as having a strong resemblance to Holidays, with it's slide guitar lines.. It seems so similar to me - what's that all about?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I was hoping Brian would've included "You're Welcome" in BWPS because I still think it's the best opening song there is for SMiLE. Follow "You're Welcome" with "Do You Like Worms" and you're off to the races!

hey I might try You're Welcome as an opener followed by Plymouth rock - but then where to place Our Prayer?! I always think Heroes sounds weird following Our Prayer whereas Good Vibrations seems to fit better imo.

If I start with "Our Prayer", I follow it with "Good Vibrations" and then with "Look". That's when I want to get "Good Vibrations" out of the way. And also, the guy has find the girl first, before we get to the past tense in "Heroes And Villains" -  FELL in love YEARS AGO with an innocent girl...

If I put "Good Vibrations" in the middle, I'll go with "Holidays" then "Wind Chimes" then "Good Vibrations". I like the lyric "on the WIND that lifts her perfume through the air" AFTER "Wind Chimes".

When I put "Our Prayer" near the end, I'll go "Our Prayer" then "Surf's Up". I used that combination for a long time. I think "Our Prayer" sounds more like a night song, an ending song, and to me, "Surf's Up" is a better closer than BWPS's "Good Vibrations".

 

[grillo]

There is that conversation between Al and Brian and Carl about Prayer being the 'intro to the album', so I feel like I must put it first, and end it with 'You're Welcome', even though that is also sort of an introductory type-o-thing. But, then again, 'You're Welcome' is technically post-Smile, so I guess I'm screwed no matter what!!

[Andrew G. Doe]

But, then again, 'You're Welcome' is technically post-Smile, so I guess I'm screwed no matter what!!

Nope - recorded mid-December 1966. If that's technically post-Smile then so is most of "H&V", "Surf's Up", "Vega-Tables" and "Love To Say Da Da" 

[Sheriff John Stone]

But, then again, 'You're Welcome' is technically post-Smile, so I guess I'm screwed no matter what!!

Nope - recorded mid-December 1966.

Which makes it more interesting. I used to think "You're Welcome" was something Brian knocked off in about five minutes to slap on the "Heroes And Villains" B side. But as AGD points out, it was recorded right along with the other SMiLE stuff. But, Brian had the chance to include it when he set the record straight with BWPS... 

BTW SloopJohnB, where do you place "Tones" on your SMiLE mix?

[buddhahat]

I was hoping Brian would've included "You're Welcome" in BWPS because I still think it's the best opening song there is for SMiLE. Follow "You're Welcome" with "Do You Like Worms" and you're off to the races!

hey I might try You're Welcome as an opener followed by Plymouth rock - but then where to place Our Prayer?! I always think Heroes sounds weird following Our Prayer whereas Good Vibrations seems to fit better imo.

If I start with "Our Prayer", I follow it with "Good Vibrations" and then with "Look". That's when I want to get "Good Vibrations" out of the way. And also, the guy has find the girl first, before we get to the past tense in "Heroes And Villains" -  FELL in love YEARS AGO with an innocent girl...

If I put "Good Vibrations" in the middle, I'll go with "Holidays" then "Wind Chimes" then "Good Vibrations". I like the lyric "on the WIND that lifts her perfume through the air" AFTER "Wind Chimes".

When I put "Our Prayer" near the end, I'll go "Our Prayer" then "Surf's Up". I used that combination for a long time. I think "Our Prayer" sounds more like a night song, an ending song, and to me, "Surf's Up" is a better closer than BWPS's "Good Vibrations".

I tend to follow GV with Look too as they share the same riff. I agree about the lyric of H&V making it more logical to place it away from the start. Do you try and set your mix up like a LP with an A and B side? Therefore if GV is the start of your A side, Heroes has to kick of the B side! Also then I try to place all the Americana stuff on one side, and the elements on another but it begins to get a bit complicated.

Where do you place Wonderful and Child? I find Child has to precede Surf's Up at the end as they belong together imo. I find it diffifcult to separate Wonderful, Look, Child and Surf's Up as they work so well together on BWPS.

[Exapno Mapcase]

"But, Brian had the chance to include it when he set the record straight with BWPS...  "

Maybe he did put the record straight with BWPS...