Can't Wait Too Long

[buddhahat]

Fire - obviously a given
Water - 75% a given
Earth - I asked someone who would probably know... they nodded, encouragingly
Air - the only known piece that fits the description of "Air" in the Priess book even vaguely is "Country Air". Plus they both have "Air" in the title.   

Thanks Andrew. That's interesting to hear about the earth section. Bells intro (edit - I mean Bag Of Tricks) sounds like an early Fall Breaks - could this have been an early stab at the Earth?

Do you not agree with the theory that IWBA was to follow Fire? Also does your Fire consist of MOC/H&V intro, followed by Fire?

What is the Air description (I don't have the Priess book) - is it where Brian talks about a piano piece?

[The Shift]

FWIW, my idea of what comprised "The Elements" is:

Fire - "Mr's O'Leary's Fire"
Water - "Love To Sa Da Da"
Earth - "Fall Breaks..." (or an early version thereof)
Air - verse of "Country Air"

Based on mostly intuition, gut feeling and a few questions into the right ears.

Do you seriously think Country Air has some rooting in Smile or is that a bit of artistic license? Do you reckon Fall Breaks was once the Earth section?! Please elaborate if there is any evidence for these having a connection to the Elements, or at least which ones are based on 'questions into the right ears'!

Fire - obviously a given
Water - 75% a given
Earth - I asked someone who would probably know... they nodded, encouragingly
Air - the only known piece that fits the description of "Air" in the Priess book even vaguely is "Country Air". Plus they both have "Air" in the title.   

Am I right in thinking Andrew that you once said you'd been played something (by someone who might know) akin to Country Air in the context of it having been intnded as SMiLE's Air Element?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Do you not agree with the theory that IWBA was to follow Fire? Also does your Fire consist of MOC/H&V intro, followed by Fire?

The sole source for this assumption is Carol Kaye. And you know how I (and doubtless the family of James Jamerson) feel about her track record regarding accuracy.

What is the Air description (I don't have the Priess book) - is it where Brian talks about a piano piece?

That's the one. Slim pickings, but until someone can wave an AFM sheet at me, I'm sticking to it. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

FWIW, my idea of what comprised "The Elements" is:

Fire - "Mr's O'Leary's Fire"
Water - "Love To Sa Da Da"
Earth - "Fall Breaks..." (or an early version thereof)
Air - verse of "Country Air"

Based on mostly intuition, gut feeling and a few questions into the right ears.

Do you seriously think Country Air has some rooting in Smile or is that a bit of artistic license? Do you reckon Fall Breaks was once the Earth section?! Please elaborate if there is any evidence for these having a connection to the Elements, or at least which ones are based on 'questions into the right ears'!

Fire - obviously a given
Water - 75% a given
Earth - I asked someone who would probably know... they nodded, encouragingly
Air - the only known piece that fits the description of "Air" in the Priess book even vaguely is "Country Air". Plus they both have "Air" in the title.   

Am I right in thinking Andrew that you once said you'd been played something (by someone who might know) akin to Country Air in the context of it having been intnded as SMiLE's Air Element?

Something like that. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

FWIW, my idea of what comprised "The Elements" is:

Fire - "Mr's O'Leary's Fire"
Water - "Love To Sa Da Da"
Earth - "Fall Breaks..." (or an early version thereof)
Air - verse of "Country Air"

Based on mostly intuition, gut feeling and a few questions into the right ears.

Two part question:

First, for "Dada", do you think it would've sounded like the version released on the boxed set? Without lyrics?

Second, I dug out Wild Honey to listen to "Country Air" again. Which verse do you think was used? 

[Bicyclerider]

Brian said Air was a piano instrumental and that "we never finished" it . . . since Country Air was finished, I would think Brian would have mentioned that . . . "we turned it into Country Air on Wild Honey" or something along those lines.  So IMO we still have nothing that meets the Preiss book description for Air.

Earth WAS Vegetables.  The Frank Holmes illustration makes that clear.  Brian says it was in the Preiss book (if Andrew's going to take Brian's comment about Air to make a conclusion about Country Air being part of the suite, shouldn't he take Brian's other comment at face value as well?).  The only question is, would Vegetables have stayed as the earth section in late 66 into April 67, when Vegetables became a separate "track" or title on the album (the December list) and then considered for a single in April?  We have no evidence Fall Breaks was considered the earth section, and we have an early version of Fall Breaks - it's called Bag of Tricks and has the same bass line as Fall Breaks.  It's on that January 3rd tape with various attempts at Heroes sections, including, at the end, All Day (an early version of Dada).  Could Brian have been working on Heroes AND The Elements on Jan 3rd?  All Day doesn't sound very elementy or watery to me, if that had been the intended destination for the song - and neither does  the title Bag of Tricks sound evocative of the earth.  Perrsonally I think he never got around to putting to tape the "Piano instrumental" Air or ever got around to replacing Vegetables as earth before SMile crashed and burned.

[John]

Brian said Air was a piano instrumental and that "we never finished" it . . . since Country Air was finished, I would think Brian would have mentioned that . . .

Was it finished though? If there was a plan to write lyrics for the verse, that wasn't implemented...

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian said Air was a piano instrumental and that "we never finished" it . . .

That quote always bothered me. Oh, I believe the quote is accurate; that's a typical one-sentence Brian answer.

What bothers me is that the interviewer didn't follow up on it. First, he gets an interview with Brian Wilson that is ON THE RECORD. Then, he gets him to answer a specific SMiLE question, and amazingly, it's in reference to the elements! Brian throws out a line that "we didn't finish it". And that's that. How about "How long was the piece?" or "Did you ever re-visit it for another track?" or "Did you record a demo of it?" or "Did it have a working title?" or, well, you can think of your own question. Maybe the interviewer did follow up with another question and Brian shrugged it off....And, you know what, it's a couple of DECADES later, and we still don't know anything more.

[Chris Brown]

Brian said Air was a piano instrumental and that "we never finished" it . . .

That quote always bothered me. Oh, I believe the quote is accurate; that's a typical one-sentence Brian answer.

What bothers me is that the interviewer didn't follow up on it. First, he gets an interview with Brian Wilson that is ON THE RECORD. Then, he gets him to answer a specific SMiLE question, and amazingly, it's in reference to the elements! Brian throws out a line that "we didn't finish it". And that's that. How about "How long was the piece?" or "Did you ever re-visit it for another track?" or "Did you record a demo of it?" or "Did it have a working title?" or, well, you can think of your own question. Maybe the interviewer did follow up with another question and Brian shrugged it off....And, you know what, it's a couple of DECADES later, and we still don't know anything more.

That's always bugged me too...Brian talking about Smile in the late 70's is amazing in itself, but after he actually gave a decent answer you'd think the reporter would follow up.  The answer is a revelation but about as vague as it gets.  That quote to me indicates that Air was something that we've probably heard in uncompleted form (DaDa anyone?).  If this is true then Wind Chimes is out, since it was presumably "finished" and was not just a piano piece. 

I still don't totally buy the Vega-Tables = Earth thing, just because it always seemed like its own song, not one section of a larger whole.  But the fact that the Holmes illustration suggests otherwise certainly does make you think.  If we go with that, then it seems like BWPS was pretty close to getting the original elements in the right places after all.  Who knows though, really?  I wish Brian had been as clear about the other elements as  he was about MOLC ("The Elements, Part 1, Fire").  Heck, maybe Brian never made up his mind about the other 3.  That would be par for the course during that era. Sadly it doesn't seem like Brian today would be much help, even if he was completely forthcoming.

[Been Too Long]

Hey, this is all conjecture but I’ve always wondered… The January 3rd session does seem to cover a few tracks, as was mentioned. Fire was recorded as The Elements: Part One. On January 3rd you have a recording of Tag to Part One. I know Tag to Part One has that same C# thing going on as Heroes but… it is “a piano piece” and unfinished. Maybe this is air. I’ve never used it as such but it might work somehow.

Been Too Long

[buddhahat]

Hey, this is all conjecture but I’ve always wondered… The January 3rd session does seem to cover a few tracks, as was mentioned. Fire was recorded as The Elements: Part One. On January 3rd you have a recording of Tag to Part One. I know Tag to Part One has that same C# thing going on as Heroes but… it is “a piano piece” and unfinished. Maybe this is air. I’ve never used it as such but it might work somehow.

Been Too Long

You never know. I've also wondered this. That tag sounds as if it was to accompany the Do A Lot part of Vegetables. Going on what somebody's already said - that Vegetables was too much a long song to be a component of The Elements, maybe a section of it was at one point the Earth Section. Perhaps Do A Lot with the groaning chant behind it (similar to the Swedish Frog section) could've been earth then Tag to part 1 was Air as a sort of variation on Earth. Who knows - it's not unthinkable. It's impossible to be sure on any of this I think.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian said Air was a piano instrumental and that "we never finished" it . . . since Country Air was finished, I would think Brian would have mentioned that . . . "we turned it into Country Air on Wild Honey" or something along those lines.  So IMO we still have nothing that meets the Preiss book description for Air.

I know this could be seen as Priore-style evasion, but as the quote is undated - unless Cam knows better -  is it not possible that the quote was pre-Wild Honey ? Try taking the choruses out
of "CA" - proves diddly, I know, but try it.

Earth WAS Vegetables.  The Frank Holmes illustration makes that clear.  Brian says it was in the Preiss book (if Andrew's going to take Brian's comment about Air to make a conclusion about Country Air being part of the suite, shouldn't he take Brian's other comment at face value as well?).  The only question is, would Vegetables have stayed as the earth section in late 66 into April 67, when Vegetables became a separate "track" or title on the album (the December list) and then considered for a single in April? 

My feeling, shared by others far better qualified to muse on these matters, is that while "Vega-Tables" originally was a part of "The Elements", at some point in the fall of 1966, Brian spun it off as a seperate song. Even though the famous handwritten list is now known not to be by Brian, it is listed as a seperate track.

We have no evidence Fall Breaks was considered the earth section, and we have an early version of Fall Breaks - it's called Bag of Tricks and has the same bass line as Fall Breaks.  It's on that January 3rd tape with various attempts at Heroes sections, including, at the end, All Day (an early version of Dada).  Could Brian have been working on Heroes AND The Elements on Jan 3rd?  All Day doesn't sound very elementy or watery to me, if that had been the intended destination for the song - and neither does  the title Bag of Tricks sound evocative of the earth.  Perrsonally I think he never got around to putting to tape the "Piano instrumental" Air or ever got around to replacing Vegetables as earth before SMile crashed and burned.

All I can say is that I asked someone who would very likely know if "Fall Breaks..." was derived from "Earth", and they smiled at me and nodded. And no, it wasn't Brian... and surely the fact that the vocal lines from "Fall Breaks..." fit so well into "Fire" counts for something. Unless he tells me so himself, i cannot believe that either Brian or darian had that idea off the top of their head.

[buddhahat]

All I can say is that I asked someone who would very likely know if "Fall Breaks..." was derived from "Earth", and they smiled at me and nodded. And no, it wasn't Brian... and surely the fact that the vocal lines from "Fall Breaks..." fit so well into "Fire" counts for something. Unless he tells me so himself, i cannot believe that either Brian or darian had that idea off the top of their head.

But surely Fall Breaks is just a reworking of Fire - they're very similar, and so this why the vocal parts fit so easily over Fire in BWPS?

[Andrew G. Doe]

True, but maybe "Earth" & "Fire" were variations on the same theme (he says without a shred of proof to offer !).

[Rocker]

@AGD: Was it VDP who told you so? Because I don't think that any of the other boys knew how the parts would be put into the album or concept. To tell you the truth, I am not even convinced that Van dyke knows all of this. My impression was that Brian was the only one who knew the "plan" but over the years didn't want to remember until he couldn't remember....

[Bicyclerider]

The interview with Brian for the Preiss book took place around the time of the M.I.U. album, according to one of the researchers on the book - and the interview was apparently very difficult to arrange and conduct, as would be typical of Brian at that time (and pretty much any time up to his recent concert resurgence/accessible Brian).

the early so called "demo" verson of Vegetables was not a demo version at all but a short version of the verses (the "cornucopia" version) and that version is certainly short enough to fit into an Elements suite, and not enough to stand on its own as a song.  It fits with two other things we know:  Van Dyke says he was at the recording of Vegetables (in Dom's book), but there's no evidence he was at any of the April sessions, so he must have been remembering the cornucopia session from fall 66, and two, the Holmes illustration indicating Vegetables was part of Elements in early fall 66.