Can't Wait Too Long

[Sheriff John Stone]

Do you try and set your mix up like a LP with an A and B side? Therefore if GV is the start of your A side, Heroes has to kick of the B side! Also then I try to place all the Americana stuff on one side, and the elements on another but it begins to get a bit complicated.

Where do you place Wonderful and Child? I find Child has to precede Surf's Up at the end as they belong together imo. I find it diffifcult to separate Wonderful, Look, Child and Surf's Up as they work so well together on BWPS.

I set it up as one continuous piece. You're right, it can get complicated to make sides. Besides, with a CD it isn't necessary. I do, however, try to group the stuff according to themes - Americana, Elemental, Child/Father - but even that gets complicated. As much as I don't like BWPS, my mixes do end up looking a lot like the BWPS sequence. But I will NEVER end with "Good Vibrations". Never.

I usually place "Wonderful" after "Heroes And Villains". I like to follow the "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough" theme with "she belongs there left with her liberty". You know, it's like the rider left to explore new territory and left the girl and/or child behind. I then put a portion of "Mama Mama Mama" after "Wonderful". I want to capitalize on the "all that's left is a girl who's loved by her mother and father" lyric.  I also capitalize on "Wonderful"'s lyric, "farther down the path is a mystery" by going into the "Barnyard". Then I burn it down.

We must think alike. I usually put "Child Is Father Of The Man" right before "Surf's Up" also. And I use the instrumental intro of "Surf's Up" from the boxed set. When I get tired of ending my SMiLE mix with "Surf's Up", I'll try "Heroes And Villains" with the "false Barnyard" snippet attached. I'll fade it off into the sunset. To me, "Heroes And Villains" is such a great REVIEW song. When he sings "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough", it's like, OK, you finally made it!

[SloopJohnB]

BTW SloopJohnB, where do you place "Tones" on your SMiLE mix?

Usually, my SMiLE mixes last about 40 to 50 minutes, so on a CD I've got at least 30 minutes to "play with". These 30 minutes are "less serious" than the "real" SMiLE mix that preceded them: that's where I throw "bonus tracks" (think "Tones", "He Gives Speeches", "CWTL", the SMiLE ad, or even "Diamond Head" or "Three Blind Mice"...) without really caring for their recording date. As long as I somehow associate them with SMiLE, I put them there.

But I would never include "Tones" in a SMiLE tracklist. It'll never be more than a "bonus" track.

My mixes usually end up looking a lot like BWPS (even though, like you, I don't particularly like it), because I'm quite satisfied with this tracklist and the "three themes". There are sometimes little variations (especially in the Elements)... But I have some rules: I always begin with "Our Prayer", followed by "Heroes & Villains". And I also always end with Good Vibrations.

Good Vibrations always has a special ending: after the end of the song, there are about 30 seconds of silence, and then an unused part of Good Vibrations fades in and out. It makes a nice, "surprise" ending to the album... Much like the famous "runout groove" on Sgt. Pepper's.

And I don't really care for a "LP time limit" or for "A and B sides"...

I have recently got new ideas for another SMiLE mix... I want to spend more time doing it, and I want to be more focused when doing it than I was when doing my other mixes. I'd like the next one to be "the definitive one"... I'll probably do it next July or August.

The previous mixes were really done in a Do-It-Yourself way, using software that wasn't really appropriate (to "link" two tracks, I would put the first song in Windows Media Player, the second in Winamp, and record the whole thing, by launching the first song and then the second track at the right time. This technique would become a real pain in the neck when wanting to "layer" different parts: half a second too late, and the whole thing was screwed up. That's probably one of the reasons why I wasn't focused enough: the "recording process" was a bit too difficult. I laugh at myself when I think about this technique... But at the time it was the only way I could do it  ). Now I've got Sound Forge, Audacity, Pro Tools, that kind of stuff...

(btw please forgive me for my bad english. I have trouble finding my words tonight)

[Sheriff John Stone]

Good Vibrations always has a special ending: after the end of the song, there are about 30 seconds of silence, and then an unused part of Good Vibrations fades in and out. It makes a nice, "surprise" ending to the album....

I like to use a hidden track/surprise ending also. I usually end my mixes with "Surf's Up". So I'll then wait about 20 seconds and tack on the "boy/girl boy/girl boy/girl" snippet from "Carl's Coda" from the Hawthorne CD Disc 2. It keeps with the Heroes And Villains theme, and, because it's recorded at a lower volume, it makes a nice, mellow fade out.

I'm curious though, about two things. First, do you end with "Good Vibration" because of BWPS or because you really like the way it fits there? Or both?

Second, you seem really adamant about "Tones" not being a bonafide SMiLE track. I'm not disagreeing with you, but why do you feel that way? Do you feel it was actually a Carl project?

   

[grillo]

Wait, is Tones the outro of Hollidays? Or is it an other mis-labled track. My Smile memory-recall seems to have faded of late, so I'm just trying to figure out what you guys are talking about. P.S. As for You're Welcome being recorded so early, I was under the (mistaken) impression that it was something BW just threw together at the last minute for the H&V single. Note to Self; study sessionography before making stupid statements!

[SloopJohnB]

I'm curious though, about two things. First, do you end with "Good Vibration" because of BWPS or because you really like the way it fits there? Or both?

To me, it fits quite nicely with the "elements" theme... It's some kind of "fifth element", something intangible... I even read somewhere that vibrations were a part of the Buddhist elements.

BWPS influenced me, because I used to end my mixes with Surf's Up. But after listening to BWPS, I thought that it was actually the best way to end a fan-mix, especially if you're going to make other people listen to it: the listener is shocked by the previous tracks... But there comes Good Vibrations. The ultimate slap in the face! 

Second, you seem really adamant about "Tones" not being a bonafide SMiLE track. I'm not disagreeing with you, but why do you feel that way? Do you feel it was actually a Carl project? 

I don't really know if it's a Carl project or not... The real problem is that I don't "know" enough about that track to know what to make of it.

That said, musically, I think it would fit nicely in the Americana part or in the Elements.

[buddhahat]

I set it up as one continuous piece. You're right, it can get complicated to make sides. Besides, with a CD it isn't necessary. I do, however, try to group the stuff according to themes - Americana, Elemental, Child/Father - but even that gets complicated. As much as I don't like BWPS, my mixes do end up looking a lot like the BWPS sequence. But I will NEVER end with "Good Vibrations". Never.

I usually place "Wonderful" after "Heroes And Villains". I like to follow the "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough" theme with "she belongs there left with her liberty". You know, it's like the rider left to explore new territory and left the girl and/or child behind. I then put a portion of "Mama Mama Mama" after "Wonderful". I want to capitalize on the "all that's left is a girl who's loved by her mother and father" lyric.  I also capitalize on "Wonderful"'s lyric, "farther down the path is a mystery" by going into the "Barnyard". Then I burn it down.

We must think alike. I usually put "Child Is Father Of The Man" right before "Surf's Up" also. And I use the instrumental intro of "Surf's Up" from the boxed set. When I get tired of ending my SMiLE mix with "Surf's Up", I'll try "Heroes And Villains" with the "false Barnyard" snippet attached. I'll fade it off into the sunset. To me, "Heroes And Villains" is such a great REVIEW song. When he sings "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough", it's like, OK, you finally made it!

I love BWPS but also wish they had ended it with Surf's Up. My mixes always start with Our Prayer and end with Surf's Up as there are Brian quotes placing these tracks at the start and end, although I guess he may have changed his mind even about that. I think I prefer GV to follow Our Prayer as its key seems to fit much more naturally. Heroes jars a bit for me after OP.

I always use the alternate Heroes instead of the 45 one. I'd miss the cantina section too much if I used the released version. The problem then is that I miss the beautiful Sunny Down Snuff ending. On a recent mix I took the Heroes sections from the boxset, snipped the beginning so that it starts with Gee and replaced the false barnyard ending with Sunny Down Snuff. I call this my Heroes and Villains part 2. I reckon Brian at one point planned to have Gee running into several of those other sections including Swedish Frog, as there is an original mix on the SOT boot, so this kind of justifies it for me. What do other people do with the Hereos sections track? It contains so many great bits, but if I just use it as it is I find it's a kind of H&V overkill.

I like to follow the cantina Heroes with OMP/Yams. The false Barnyard ending to Heroes sounds great followed by OMP. As the False Barnyard originally had YAMS lyrics it makes sense to me to place these pieces together.

I follow OMP/YAMS with prelude to fade. It jars a bit but I like the melting chellos followed by the western theme, and False Barnyard, OMP/YAMS and prelude to fade all sound great together to me. The title implies it was the penultimate section of Heroes, but then what is the fade that it precedes? I recently placed Barnyard after the flutter horn and it sounds great - right key, timing works perfectly and Barnyard is a fade so this makes great sense to me.

[Sheriff John Stone]

What do other people do with the Hereos sections track?

"Heroes And Villains" is a tricky one. More than any SMiLE song, I never know where to put it! I agree with you, buddhahat, that it jars when following "Our Prayer". That might be one reason why Darian (and I guess Brian?) toyed with it and used those sound effects on BWPS.

I like ALL of the sections/tidbits/snippets/craziness that Brian recorded for "Heroes And Villains". So, because I want to blow the listener's mind, I hate to leave any of it off. Like many, I found "The Heroes And Villains Suite" on a music site where somebody patched together all of the segments. It's 10 minutes long but it's great. As you mentioned, it could be considered "overkill", but there's so much "SMiLE craziness" in it....I usually put it near the middle. As I mentioned before, I have used "H & V" as a closing song. I like the lyrics as a "recap" of SMiLE, and it ends kind of positively, with the line "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough". And then I fade off with false barnyard. Haven't used it lately, though.

[grillo]

Oh man! I feel like H&V HAS to be 2nd (after prayer). The cantina version. Then you can move things along with Worms, then back to H&V (sections) followed by OMP/YAMS, Wondeful, CITFOTM and the usual Vigotone sort of order. Definately end with Surf's Up. And GV must start off Side Two. That's how BW did it with SS, and it sounds great having both sides start with a hit. I wanna be around goes After  fire. I never know what to do with WMT, though it's cool between GV and WC. I try to make a pretty concise album; 14 tracks, no cross-fades, just like a standard album in '66/67. H&V sections is the only real iffy thing...can't imagine how/if it would really go on an album, but think it's cool enough to be there. All the other stuff goes on a supplemental CD titled Dumb Angel.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I try to make a pretty concise album; 14 tracks, no cross-fades, just like a standard album in '66/67.

Not to start a 23 page argument, but that's how I think SMiLE would've come out in 1967 anyway.

Do you make copies of your CD's and give 'em to people to listen to? Reactions?

[buddhahat]

I try to make a pretty concise album; 14 tracks, no cross-fades, just like a standard album in '66/67.

Not to start a 23 page argument, but that's how I think SMiLE would've come out in 1967 anyway.

Do you make copies of your CD's and give 'em to people to listen to? Reactions?

Yeah I'm coming round to the no cross fade, standard album argument.

I don't make CDs for people just because I suspect none of my friends would really get into it, but maybe that's not fair. I have friends who are big Beach Boys fans but not that fussed about the Smile stuff so I wonder if a Smile obsession is a fairly idiosyncratic thing. I do burn my mixes onto CD but, as you mentioned John, I often find that as soon as it's burned I want to change the sequence and I was wasting too many CDs this way! Now I just play my mixes through an Ipod linked to the stereo - much cheaper.

I agree with Grillo that I wanna be Around should follow fire. This is the only instance in the tracks where I feel fairly positive that 2 tracks were designed to follow one another. That sequence just feels so right to me so I never alter it. The other 2 that inevitably get lumped together is Holidays and Windchimes (as on BWPS) as the ending of Holidays does suggest Windchimes should follow, although I'm not convinced that these two would have definitely been sequenced together.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I try to make a pretty concise album; 14 tracks, no cross-fades, just like a standard album in '66/67.

Not to start a 23 page argument, but that's how I think SMiLE would've come out in 1967 anyway.

Do you make copies of your CD's and give 'em to people to listen to? Reactions?

Yeah I'm coming round to the no cross fade, standard album argument.

I came around to that view maybe five years ago, when I asked Van Dyke how Smile would have been programmed, and he said single album, 12 songs, seperate tracks, no segues or cross fades... except within one track.

[buddhahat]

no segues or cross fades... except within one track.

Heroes and Villains, right?! Presumably no cross-fades at all though?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Wrong. Strike one !

[Chris Brown]

no segues or cross fades... except within one track.

I've always thought that the only track that would have used cross fades was the Elements...4 relatively short (about a minute each) pieces edited together in a BWPS fashion. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Home run !

[Ebb and Flow]

I wonder why Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables listed seperately on Carl's memo then?  Assuming those are the air and earth sections.  Would "The Elements" have just been Fire and Da Da, or featured more missing pieces?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Vegetables wasn't the Earth section, according to a really wonderful guide to the Beach Boys music written by...hmm...what was his name again?

[Chris Brown]

Fire was obviously MOLC and Water was probably Water Chant.

I don't think the Earth or Air sections are anything that were recorded or even necessarily written when Smile collapsed.

[Roger Ryan]

Of course, Frank Holmes seemed to be under the impression that "My Vegetables" was part of "The Elements" judging from his illustration for the "SMiLE" booklet. Also, for what it's worth, "Fire" is referred to as "The Elements - Part 1" during the original sessions.

[Andrew G. Doe]

FWIW, my idea of what comprised "The Elements" is:

Fire - "Mr's O'Leary's Fire"
Water - "Love To Sa Da Da"
Earth - "Fall Breaks..." (or an early version thereof)
Air - verse of "Country Air"

Based on mostly intuition, gut feeling and a few questions into the right ears.

[buddhahat]

FWIW, my idea of what comprised "The Elements" is:

Fire - "Mr's O'Leary's Fire"
Water - "Love To Sa Da Da"
Earth - "Fall Breaks..." (or an early version thereof)
Air - verse of "Country Air"

Based on mostly intuition, gut feeling and a few questions into the right ears.

Do you seriously think Country Air has some rooting in Smile or is that a bit of artistic license? Do you reckon Fall Breaks was once the Earth section?! Please elaborate if there is any evidence for these having a connection to the Elements, or at least which ones are based on 'questions into the right ears'!

[grillo]

I love that CountryAir idea, but isn't it pretty clear that Vegetables was the earth section? Frank Holmes must have gotten his ideas from what BW told him...Anyway, the elements ideas are great, but without the cross-fades. More like a GV type thing where there are hard edits. Just a guess though.

[Mr. Cohen]

I find it interesting that so many people don't place "Heroes and Villains" in the beginning. I couldn't see it any other way. I've always been influenced by Brian's comments from the period about studying classical composers and being inspired by "Rhapsody in Blue":

In western classical music, composers often introduce an initial melody, or theme, and then create variations. Classical music often has several melodic layers, called polyphony, such as those in a fugue, a type of counterpoint. Often melodies are constructed from motifs or short melodic fragments, such as the opening of Beethoven's Fifth.

[Rhapsody in Blue] is characterized by strong motivic interrelatedness. Much of the motivic material is introduced in the first 14 measures. David Schiff identifies five major themes plus a sixth “tag.” ... A rhapsody in music is a one-movement work that is episodic yet integrated, free-flowing in structure, featuring a range of highly contrasted moods, colour and tonality.

That lone flutter horn playing the main musical theme from "Heroes and Villains" (and then hearing it emphasized again by horns and keyboards throughout the song) reminds me of that concept of introducing a melody/theme in the beginning, especially seeing how Brian placed it right before H&V in BWPS. This structural style is reinforced by most of the SMiLE songs being musically derivative of H&V in some way ("episodic yet integrated ... a range of highly contrasted moods, color, etc." describes the album for me). Additionally, lyrically, a lot of the cornerstone songs have their basis in H&V. The storyline of a girl caught in a rain of bullets yet still carrying on fits with how many of the songs (like "Wonderful" and "Cabinessence") seem to refer to an ambiguous girl, a symbolic sentiment representing America and its evolution. Leaving the city for a town in the wild west introduces the concept of expansion. The reference to children does as well (settlement), but it also segues into the concepts later touched on by "Surf's Up". The majority of the album, to me, is a series of variations on that opening theme. Brian obviously felt it was very important to the album, spending so much time on it. Releasing it as the first single from the album would've been a great way to introduce people to the radical nature of it.

I feel "Surf's Up" must be near the end of the album because it's the one "major" SMiLE song that really strikes out on its own from H&V, creating its own universal theme that stands independent from Americana. It's jarring near the beginning or end. Well, maybe one could figure out a way to make it work in the beginning, but that would be anticlimactic to me. "Child is Father of the Man" spins off that concept musically and lyrically, and so to me would have made a nice link from the H&V variations to "Surf's Up". The instrumental imbues feelings of something massive.

The whole "Elements", healthy living, and country themes tie into the "I'm in Great Shape" and "Barnyard" themes, both of which appear tied to the initial concepts of H&V (based on the demo, along with conjuring up ideas of expansion, settlement, and the frontier touched on by the song). Unfortunately, parts of those themes seemed to have been lost in the shuffle during the 66/67 sessions, though, and were never closed to being finished. That's what always made it difficult for me to configure those songs when I tried doing "fan edits". The way things were done in BWPS made it all feel like a haphazard, colliding collection of different themes, which I guess is what the original album was turning into once Brian lost focus.

Of course, I'm not trying to say that my views are correct or definite or anything like. Those are just my opinions on how the album was. I could be way off on how Brian imagined the album both in the 60s and today.

[buddhahat]

"Child is Father of the Man" spins off that concept musically and lyrically, and so to me would have made a nice link from the H&V variations to "Surf's Up". The instrumental imbues feelings of something massive.

This is a great post. You make a good case for H&V being at the start!

CIFOTM fascinates me as the slow sections of the song (with the trumpet) do sound so expansive as you note. You have to wonder what melody/lyrics were to be sung over those parts (if you don't believe that the 04 melody is vintage). I agree that it feels as if it belongs with Surf's Up. It shares the same sense of gravity. For me, the incompletion of CIFOTM is the saddest casualty in the abortion of Smile.

[Andrew G. Doe]

FWIW, my idea of what comprised "The Elements" is:

Fire - "Mr's O'Leary's Fire"
Water - "Love To Sa Da Da"
Earth - "Fall Breaks..." (or an early version thereof)
Air - verse of "Country Air"

Based on mostly intuition, gut feeling and a few questions into the right ears.

Do you seriously think Country Air has some rooting in Smile or is that a bit of artistic license? Do you reckon Fall Breaks was once the Earth section?! Please elaborate if there is any evidence for these having a connection to the Elements, or at least which ones are based on 'questions into the right ears'!

Fire - obviously a given
Water - 75% a given
Earth - I asked someone who would probably know... they nodded, encouragingly
Air - the only known piece that fits the description of "Air" in the Priess book even vaguely is "Country Air". Plus they both have "Air" in the title.