Does BWPS still stand?

[PMcC]

Let's see...Smile, weak...GIOMH, awful...Imagination, sterile production. ...BW88, 80's synths and drum machines.  ...Sweet Insanity, more of the same...Makes you think some people just cannot be satified, or wish that Brian had stopped after 1985 . The guy is not going to create Pet Sounds for you ever again, so you may want to lower those expectations a bit. I'm just glad he's still getting up in the morning.

[Dancing Bear]

I don't think the original question was intended to be a review of the CD. Where will BWPS as a whole stand was the question I think. Which means the live performances, the DVD, etc.

On topic answer: The whole BWPS multimedia project will be viewed as 2004 Brian Wilson revisiting the album that the Beach Boys never finished in 1967.

PS: I'm not interested in debating what "finishing Smile" means. Whoever disagrees with my 'projection' is free to post their own.

[buddhahat]

Why do I get the impression that the negative comments about BWPS come from mostly those folks who didn't get a chance to see the concert live? Or didn't even try. And I feel that many of these same people have the "original" recordings and think, for some reason, that they hold the real McCoy and the rest of us are missing something better.

There may be some truth to this. I was at the 2nd RFH concert, hadn't heard lots of the Smile stuff before this, and the concert just blew my mind. I was a Smile freak from that day forth.

What's great for me is that as BWPS was my first real intro to Smile, to certain extent it IS Smile for me and whenever I listen to it I'm reminded of the excitement I felt when I first heard these tracks. As such it's an uncomplicated and hugely enjoyable listen for me and I never seem to tire of it.

Aside from these personal associations I think it will stand for a long time because:

Pros
1. It's Brian and VDP's last creative work on these songs and so arguably is a completion or conclusion to Smile.
2. It allowed us to hear previously unheard vintage parts such as the new Worms melody, (imo) the SFC melody, possibly the Child melody - who knows: More Smile mystery!
3. It has new melodies and lyrics written by the original composers and these new parts are great.
4. It's a chance to listen to a version of Smile sequenced by Brian (I believe) that flows beautifully and works as a cohesive whole.

Cons
1. It doesn't have the same magic sound as the original boots. Who cares, they're still there for you if you prefer. Why should BWPS and the 66 sessions be mutually exclusive? I just don't get the argument that it doesn't sound as good as the originals therefore it's null and void.
2. It's not what Brian intended in 66. Of course it's not! Hang on, we don't even know if Brian knew how to sequence Smile in 66 so BWPS is the only Brian sequenced Smile (or Brian endorsed Smile sequence if you prefer) in history.

I think BWPS suffers a lot due to its constant comparison to BW fans' ideas of what Smile could've been in 66. Any album is going to fall short on those terms. I think if you listen to BWPS on it's own merits, take it at face value, then it's hugely rewarding imo. I think it will feature in top album polls for years to come.

I prefer the CD to the DVD but seem to be the only one. Seeing Smile live was mind blowing but the DVD performance seems a bit contrived to me. Don't know why, maybe because it's very obviously performed for the cameras. I guess it just doesn't seem any more real than the CD to me.

[the captain]

The guy is not going to create Pet Sounds for you ever again, so you may want to lower those expectations a bit. I'm just glad he's still getting up in the morning.

Amen. I made a similar post in the "Alternate History" thread a few minutes ago. (I expect to be beaten up, btw.)

Oh, but I disagree about Smile being weak. I love the album.

[the captain]

1. It's Brian and VDP's last creative work on these songs and so arguably is a completion or conclusion to Smile.

It IS the completion of Smile. I don't think there is any "arguably" involved, except among people who don't like the way it was completed. But like it or not, it was the one and only album legitimately released as Smile.

[Jim McShane]

On topic answer: The whole BWPS multimedia project will be viewed as 2004 Brian Wilson revisiting the album that the Beach Boys never finished in 1967.

PS: I'm not interested in debating what "finishing Smile" means. Whoever disagrees with my 'projection' is free to post their own.

It's funny - I was auditioning some speakers at an audio shop last week and I happened to have BWPS on CD with me so I used that to listen (since I was familiar with how it sounds in my own system). The handful of people in the shop had no idea it was something that had its origins in the 60s! They just thought it was a pretty weird CD.

When you get away from the core BB/BW fan group I think the knowledge about Smile's roots is pretty thin.

[Cam Mott]

1. It's Brian and VDP's last creative work on these songs and so arguably is a completion or conclusion to Smile.

It IS the completion of Smile. I don't think there is any "arguably" involved, except among people who don't like the way it was completed. But like it or not, it was the one and only album legitimately released as Smile.

Or one could argue the legitimacy of a group's album released by an individual.

[the captain]

1. It's Brian and VDP's last creative work on these songs and so arguably is a completion or conclusion to Smile.

It IS the completion of Smile. I don't think there is any "arguably" involved, except among people who don't like the way it was completed. But like it or not, it was the one and only album legitimately released as Smile.

Or one could argue the legitimacy of a group's album released by an individual.

That is true. But as the primary composer and with the Beach Boys acting largely* as hired musicians on the sessions for that album (when they were involved in those sessions at all), it would seem that Brian Wilson is the one with the right to determine if and when it is finished, and what "it" is. Now, the result might not be the best that could have ever been possible (and I would say it is not), but it is HIS work, primarily. It isn't as if Bruce Johnston recorded and released an album claiming to be Smile.

*Not completely. I am not saying none of them had any say in the artistic product. But there are no Dennis Wilson songs, Carl Wilson songs, and so on. They're Brian's, for the most part.

[Dancing Bear]

It's funny - I was auditioning some speakers at an audio shop last week and I happened to have BWPS on CD with me so I used that to listen (since I was familiar with how it sounds in my own system). The handful of people in the shop had no idea it was something that had its origins in the 60s! They just thought it was a pretty weird CD.

Maybe the world isn't ready for it yet.   

When you get away from the core BB/BW fan group I think the knowledge about Smile's roots is pretty thin.

IMO: whoever heard about Smile knows that in 1966 etc. I don't think it will ever change. To be fair, I've had contact with some who don't care about the BB and dig BWPS. But I've talked to many more who prefer the old Smile recordings and don't know Sunflower from Little Deuce Coupe.

[Amy B.]

99.9% of the population has never heard the Smile songs, even the ones that were released on CD, like Cabinessence. I was one of them when BWPS came out. I was blown away by the album. It is good music. It's a great piece of work. Bringing nothing to it (not being an audiophile, not being a BB fanatic with bootlegs, not owning the GV box set), it is one of the best albums ever made.

If, in 100 years, a group decides to perform Smile live, well, why not. It's terrific music. It's a great work that can even stand alone from the Beach Boys, even Brian. And it deserved to be released in a completed form.

[Dancing Bear]

Amy B, when you first listened to BWPS did you think it was a brand new release by this guy whose name you had never seen before, Brian Wilson?

[Wilsonista]

Why should that matter?   Is it hard for you, Mr. Bear to believe that someone who had no knowledge of SMiLE and little knowledge of BW's history to actually *GASP* like BWPS?  In this instance, opinions like Amy's are the only ones that are valid. She went into it listening to the music on a total visceral level without any of the baggage that others carry.  Which is the way it should be.

[the captain]

I've shared BWPS with people who didn't know who Brian Wilson was and let them listen without telling them the story. Some loved it, a lot liked it and some didn't. Pretty much everyone thought it sounded like "an old 60s album." Probably the only person who wasn't a fan before it came out but still really likes it...my 60-year-old mother. But to be honest, I think the documentary nudged her into liking it more than she might've.

As much as a lovable, great work as I think it is, there aren't a huge number of converts from it.

Who knows, though, maybe it wouldn't have converted many people in 67, either.

[Amy B.]

I had, of course, heard of Brian Wilson. In fact, I liked the BBs music and even owned Pet Sounds. But I wasn't a major fan and didn't know most of the more obscure music. Shortly before BWPS was released, I heard Pet Sounds for the 100th time, but for some reason, I heard it on a new level...so I was primed and ready to become a more major fan. I had heard OF Smile as "the lost album," and had heard GV, of course, and H&V, which I had on a compilation.

But that was it. The first time I ever heard most of the Smile songs was when I went to the Nonesuch Web site to hear the tracks for BWPS. Upon hearing "Our Prayer," I almost cried. And that was Brian's band.

Later, having whetted my appetite to hear more, I bought the GV box set. It was only then that I heard the 1960s Smile tracks. Of course I love them. But I also love the 2004 stuff. I can see how, if I had heard and become accustomed to the BBs Smile tracks, BWPS would have sounded odd or maybe even inferior. But as a relatively new, unjaded listener in 2004, BWPS was a revelation. It's because of the sheer quality and beauty of that music. That's the only thing I had to judge it on.

[Amy B.]

As much as a lovable, great work as I think it is, there aren't a huge number of converts from it.

Who knows, though, maybe it wouldn't have converted many people in 67, either.

It's not exactly Fun, Fun, Fun, though, you know? It's not something that's going to have mass appeal.

[Dancing Bear]

Why should that matter?   Is it hard for you, Mr. Bear to believe that someone who had no knowledge of SMiLE and little knowledge of BW's history to actually *GASP* like BWPS?  In this instance, opinions like Amy's are the only ones that are valid. She went into it listening to the music on a total visceral level without any of the baggage that others carry.  Which is the way it should be.

My God, love and mercy for you too. 

I'm not questioning if Amy B should like it or the merits of the product, read the whole thread to understand how we got here. We're discussing how BWPS stands today in the general audience's eyes, and how it will be taken in the future. In this context, I'm making a point that whoever press play to listen to BWPS knows about its fabled sixties background.

She tells us that she had heard OF Smile as "the lost album" and knew GV and H&V. That's what I asked her.

[Cam Mott]

That is true. But as the primary composer and with the Beach Boys acting largely* as hired musicians on the sessions for that album (when they were involved in those sessions at all), it would seem that Brian Wilson is the one with the right to determine if and when it is finished, and what "it" is. Now, the result might not be the best that could have ever been possible (and I would say it is not), but it is HIS work, primarily. It isn't as if Bruce Johnston recorded and released an album claiming to be Smile.

*Not completely. I am not saying none of them had any say in the artistic product. But there are no Dennis Wilson songs, Carl Wilson songs, and so on. They're Brian's, for the most part.

Brian is a co-author on most of the songs and the producer for hire by Capitol and deserves most credit for the development of the material but  I'd go alot further in giving the Boys creative credit because those who attended the sessions do.  If the Boys were musicians for hire then Brian was too. Regardless of who knew whose name or history back then or now, The Boys deserve a lot more ownership than many are willing to give them imo, the material was developed by them for them as a group and they together did pay for all the sessions in which they developed the material by multiple authors [with the most authorship to Brian].  One can legitimately question the right of Brian to solely benefit from that group effort on the group's dime under the group's banner.

[Chris Brown]

That is true. But as the primary composer and with the Beach Boys acting largely* as hired musicians on the sessions for that album (when they were involved in those sessions at all), it would seem that Brian Wilson is the one with the right to determine if and when it is finished, and what "it" is. Now, the result might not be the best that could have ever been possible (and I would say it is not), but it is HIS work, primarily. It isn't as if Bruce Johnston recorded and released an album claiming to be Smile.

*Not completely. I am not saying none of them had any say in the artistic product. But there are no Dennis Wilson songs, Carl Wilson songs, and so on. They're Brian's, for the most part.

Brian is a co-author on most of the songs and the producer for hire by Capitol and deserves most credit for the development of the material but  I'd go alot further in giving the Boys creative credit because those who attended the sessions do.  If the Boys were musicians for hire then Brian was too. Regardless of who knew whose name or history back then or now, The Boys deserve a lot more ownership than many are willing to give them imo, the material was developed by them for them as a group and they together did pay for all the sessions in which they developed the material by multiple authors [with the most authorship to Brian].  One can legitimately question the right of Brian to solely benefit from that group effort on the group's dime under the group's banner.

Aside from their vocal contributions, and a few small instrumental parts (by Carl and Dennis), what else did any Beach Boy not named Brian contribute?  None of them co-wrote any of the songs, they weren't there when Brian recorded most of the tracks.   You make it sound like they were at all the sessions saying things like "hey Bri, why don't you have the horn play this little riff over the A flat chord?" during the recordiing of Wonderful.  Brian was the one arranging and producing everything, and the concept was Brian and Van Dyke's alone.  Just because it was written for them doesn't mean that they have any claim to the material.  How do you figure that Brian was just a musician for hire?  He wrote the music, nobody else.  If anybody has been under-recognized for their contributions, it is the Wrecking Crew, not the Beach Boys.  They brought Brian's musical vision to life.  That's not to say that the BB's weren't an integral part in bringing Brian's vision to life as well; the boys did some of their very finest singing on Smile.  But they didn't put in any more or less effort than the Wrecking Crew, and you don't see anyone saying that the Wrecking Crew deserves to benefit in some way. 

The bottom line is that, in my opinion, it is Brian and Van Dyke's work, and as such they are the ones who have the exclusive right to benefit from their work.  Without Brian and Van Dyke, Smile would not have existed for them to benefit from in the first place.  Even Al was quoted at one point as saying something like "yea we could probably finish it, but Brian should really be the one to do it."  Carl seemed to have a similar opinion, especially after trying to reassemble in in '72.  Even if some may not like the way he finished it, Brian is the only person who could have legitimately finished the album and called it Smile.  Had it been anyone other than Brian, nobody would have taken it seriously, because it is Brian's work, not the work of the Beach Boys as a collective entity.  Had the remaining Beach Boys come together to do it with Brian at the helm, that would be a different story.  But seriously, would anyone care one bit if it was "Bruce Johnston Presents Smile"?  No disrespect to Bruce, but its not his project to finish, and he knows that.  Just because he sang on the original doesn't give him any claim to the material.  Same goes for Mike and Al.  Smile belongs to Brian and Van Dyke, nobody else.

[Smilin Ed H]

Let's face it: some people here have their own agenda.  They were always going to like it/not like it, no matter what.  Their vision of the band and where they should have headed is different from reality - and different from my vision too.

[Jim McShane]

Brian is a co-author on most of the songs and the producer for hire by Capitol and deserves most credit for the development of the material but  I'd go alot further in giving the Boys creative credit because those who attended the sessions do.  If the Boys were musicians for hire then Brian was too. Regardless of who knew whose name or history back then or now, The Boys deserve a lot more ownership than many are willing to give them imo, the material was developed by them for them as a group and they together did pay for all the sessions in which they developed the material by multiple authors [with the most authorship to Brian].  One can legitimately question the right of Brian to solely benefit from that group effort on the group's dime under the group's banner.

"Producer for hire"??

Brian was one of the "musicians for hire"??

Are you serious? The rest of the boys should get credit because they paid for the sessions?? If someone donates a piece of canvas to Degas or Van Gogh do they deserve partial credit for his masterpiece painted on it? Aren't you also forgetting the rest of the band did get monetary and other benefit from those sessions with the release of Smiley Smile, H&V, Surf's Up, etc.?

I sometimes wonder if that is what you really believe or if you post it just to get a reaction.

I look at it this way. There were only three people that were indispensable for Smile/BWPS to exist - Brian and Van Dyke. For it to get finished add Darian Sahanaja. 

None of this means anything as regards the original poster's question IMHO. Very few people care at this point, let alone in the future.

[sidewinder572]

My intensions were not to start more "which is better arguments" although that's obviously already happened. Just to make things clear my question was this,

After over two years, now that the hype has died down. Does the album Brian Wilson Presents Smile still stand as the masterpiece everyone made it out be?

Just for the record. I am not bashing the album I believe it is a 5 star album. It's just that lately I find myself listening to the '66-'67 music instead. When BWPS first came out I (like other members of this board) was not a BB or BW geek. I only had Sounds of Summer and Pet Sounds. BWPS floored me like no other album. From then on I wanted more. At one point in time I declared it superior to the original versions. But now my opinion has changed. Still love the album, but there's something about the original that gives it the edge. In spite of the unfinished nature of it.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

[the captain]

I think everyone understood the question. But it is inevitable that when explaining one's opinion of why it does or doesn't stand as a masterpiece that the 60s recordings get brought up, and then that one's opinion of which of the two decades' work on it is better. Even your explanation in the previous post (in the "Just for the record" paragraph) gets into your preference of which is better.

[Aegir]

BWPS is a great album. It doesn't "mean" anything, it's not "relevant", it's not some mystical holy grail rescued from the past, but it's great music.

[buddhahat]

I wish they'd used Frank Holmes' original artwork though. Whatever album I listen to I always have an image of the album cover in my head. I'm sure this is true of most people - Pet Sounds sort of sounds green to me.

I can't remember why they didn't use it but I dream that when this album is inevitably repackaged they replace the current artwork with the Smile Shop.

And they re-record Mike, Bruce and Al lead vocals over some of the tracks. I love BWPS but original BB vocals would be the icing on the cake. What are their voices like nowadays - surely they can still deliver the goods?

[Aegir]

If they made Brian's voice sound good, they can do the same for the others.