So... why wasn't SMiLE released in 1967?

[Zenobi]

Oh wow. I just found the thread that is being discussed here. My hats off to you, Dan, for getting into that discussion with all those, *giggle*, fans.

Seriously, that entire thread is the perfect example of why this forum is a calm and collected place these days (since a lot of those same people were either banned or left here). For people to claim that Brian supposedly didn't understand the words to 'Surf's Up' based on him saying "maybe they work, I don't know" after explaining the damn lyrics to Jules is mind-blowing to me. And then the same poster later gets on your case because you supposedly read too much into Brian saying "I don't know"

I mean, we're talking some pretty obvious allegorical lyrics, these aren't trigonometry formulas. Also, look at the books Brian was reading at the time; to claim he wasn't able to understand these lyrics is downright laughable. Granted, when you're of the same sect of the fandom that doesn't bat-an-eye at calling Brian 'brain damaged', you're probably going to give Brian far less intellectual credit than he deserves.

To be honest, this may very well prove Brian's point: some fans may not get the words - even the words Brian says in a conversation with Jules. To those people, I say: stick to enjoying the music, leave the history and interpretations to the professionals.

Two things really annoy me in that thread:

1) How the great VDP is treated. I won't belabor this point, and just refer to Dan Lega's posts for the details.

2) The usual game of second and third guessing everything Brian ever said, because, you know... Brian is Brian. "You can't believe him when he explains that obscure verbiage by VDP. He is parroting. You know... Brian is Brian."

[Zenobi]

A question: was SMILE doomed when VDP left, or did VDP leave when SMiLE was doomed?

[guitarfool2002]

[Dan Lega]

Nice pictures!  Where did they come from?



Very reasonable posts everyone.  I just want to add, though, that Marilyn has said a couple of times, most recently in the new documentary shown on Disney+, that during the SMiLE period she believes the Beach Boys really did beat Brian down.

So, yeah, all your various theories could well be a part of why SMiLE collapsed, and I have no problem with that.  But when Brian's wife feels the Beach Boys really beat Brian down it seems we are missing a big part of the story that hasn't been told.  Maybe it was solely a questioning of the lyrics, but "beat down" implies other pressures, too.  Maybe they hounded him about the friends he was keeping?  And if all those friends were deeply into SMiLE, and he was pressured to get rid of them, then perhaps losing their support was enough for him to say, well, we did some beautiful work, but it's been tainted now, and I think I'll just keep these little gems to myself.


Love and merci,
Dan Lega  

[Zenobi]

I agree that unduly heavy pressure on Brian by his bandmates (most of them family, too ) would have been enough, by itself, to cause the abandonment of the project. But imho there is not enough evidence of that. On the contrary, we know the band cooperated excellently on all those sessions.

I am not saying that Marilyn lied, far from that. But things aren't are so black-and-white. I believe there was some "pushback" by the band, and the question is: was it really unduly heavy? Was Marilyn (rightly) protective of his spouse? Depending on point of view, what sounds legitimate doubts to someone may sound "beating down" to someone else, particularly when the recipient is as sensitive as Brian.

I admit I am rambling a bit, but it's because I am trying to be as objective as possible, without offending anyone.

And I still think that the other problems mentioned were enough to cause SMiLE's demise, anyway.

[juggler]

For me, the verification of Marilyn's claim is provided by Chuck Negron's memories from the same period.
When Chuck remembers Mike, Carl and Al reducing Brian to tears in the control booth during the Darlin/Time to Get Alone sessions and browbeating him into stopping his Redwood collaboration, that sounds exactly like the emotional beat-downs that Marilyn remembers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thebeachboys/comments/12y53b2/excerpts_from_chuck_negrons_three_dog_night/#lightbox

[guitarfool2002]

Nice pictures!  Where did they come from?


Love and merci,
Dan Lega  

That is from one of the swimming pool scenes in Love And Mercy, specifically the scene where Van Dyke's lyrics are again challenged by Mike, set during the Smile era. To me it's a beautifully done allegorical depiction of the group turmoil at this time, and how Brian's (and Van's) work on Smile was causing strife within the group. Sure, it's a Hollywood biopic, but they didn't pull that dialogue out of thin air, nor is it inaccurate based on other accounts of what was going on. And in terms of pure film making, it's poignant how they show each member of the band staged at various depths of the pool representing their individual support or lack thereof for Brian's direction with Smile. Brian is in the deep end of the pool, and is waving the others to join him. Dennis is neck deep closest to Brian, Carl is waist deep, Van Dyke has his shoes off and his feet in the pool, Mike is sitting outside the pool not wet at all, and Al is standing in the background.

That is as good of a depiction of the band's dynamic during this time as I've seen, again whether it's a Hollywood depiction or not...they nailed it. And they also worked in Brian's paranoia over having his house bugged by Murry and by Spector, which led to him wanting to have meetings in the water where they could not plant microphones. The Murry side of that paranoia was actually true, according to some who claim that listening devices were in fact found and Murry was threatening to "bust" Brian to the cops over the drug use at the house. Topic for another time.

So I simply added those photos to the list of reasons why Smile wasn't released in 1967 because for me that scene captured a perfect allegory of where the support among band members and family (and a collaborator) stood at that time regarding Smile. The swimming pool as an allegorical storytelling device is present throughout Love And Mercy, so it may be worth a rewatch to catch all the meanings behind those scenes.

[guitarfool2002]

And adding to the mentions of Marilyn's comments, I just have to say for my own sake and sanity that I would have added more to this worthwhile discussion earlier but I'm a little burned out on it considering I've been discussing these same issues for over 20 years and in recent years have contributed a lot to similar discussions, and I just feel like I'm repeating what has already been said and debated. If people either choose to ignore or simply not believe and then parse what has been on the record for many decades, I guess that's their choice, but it's sad and at least it is only a relatively small pocket of "fans" who continue trying to rewrite history or believe the rewritten history. All that can be done is to keep putting the facts about Smile out there to be seen and hopefully digested to counter the rewrites and outright falsehoods. I just don't have the time or energy right now to repeat what I've already said much more than to add a few things here and there.

So here are some relevant quotes from both Marilyn and Brian which I added to a discussion on these same topics back in 2021, taken from the Don Was documentary in 1995. If someone reads these and still doesn't believe this group dynamic happening between Brian and the other Boys in 1966 and 1967 was a factor in what happened with Smile, or chooses to dismiss what Dan Lega and others are saying about this element of the story and trying to bring it to the foreground as a contributing factor, there's not much more to be done for those people...they're either not willing to listen to facts and reason, or the attempts to rewrite Smile history took hold of them and they can't see the facts right in front of them for the past however many decades.

The quotes:

Relevant quotes to consider from the Don Was documentary:

Brian:
"I had a great big, a great problem with the Beach Boys. And I wanted to do my kind of music and they wanted to do their kind of music. So it was a tug of war, I felt like I was getting pulled to pieces. Like two...inner turmoil that's struggling, with the see-saw, kind of teeter totter kind of thing, you know? Where I was being pulled all around, you know? And I just about, I fell to pieces."

"When I was younger I was a real competitor, then as I got older I said is it worth the bull, the bullshit, you know, to compete like that? And I said, nah, for awhile there I said I just said hey I'm gonna coast, I'm gonna make real nice music, nothing competitive, right?"

Marilyn:
"He had a real hard time with the guys, after Pet Sounds and after Smile. Because he felt guilty that he got all the attention, and he was the one who was called the genius. And, you know, he knew, he felt that the guys really resented that, and I think they did. I think it was very hard for them to understand why is Brian Wilson singled out. But anybody with a brain would know why."

"Well he would slowly just stay in the bedroom and let the guys record in the studio, since the Beach Boys paid for the studio. And it just became more and more that he would just stay in bed, didn't want to go down, and, you know, 'let them do their thing, let them do their thing'. And it was very tough for him because he thought that they all hated him. I think it was like, 'OK you assholes, you know, you wanna...you think you can do as good as me, or whatever? Like, go ahead. So you can do it, you do it. You think it's so easy? You do it.'"

"And I don't think Brian really ever came back. I don't think he ever had the need, I mean...he was just torn down, he really was. They slowly tore him down. I hate to say it, but they did."

I have not and will not read what's on that other board, but my thank you to Dan Lega among others for trying to get the facts out there and into the discussions wherever they may be.

[Robbie Mac]

Oh wow. I just found the thread that is being discussed here. My hats off to you, Dan, for getting into that discussion with all those, *giggle*, fans.

Seriously, that entire thread is the perfect example of why this forum is a calm and collected place these days (since a lot of those same people were either banned or left here). For people to claim that Brian supposedly didn't understand the words to 'Surf's Up' based on him saying "maybe they work, I don't know" after explaining the damn lyrics to Jules is mind-blowing to me. And then the same poster later gets on your case because you supposedly read too much into Brian saying "I don't know"

I mean, we're talking some pretty obvious allegorical lyrics, these aren't trigonometry formulas. Also, look at the books Brian was reading at the time; to claim he wasn't able to understand these lyrics is downright laughable. Granted, when you're of the same sect of the fandom that doesn't bat-an-eye at calling Brian 'brain damaged', you're probably going to give Brian far less intellectual credit than he deserves.

To be honest, this may very well prove Brian's point: some fans may not get the words - even the words Brian says in a conversation with Jules. To those people, I say: stick to enjoying the music, leave the history and interpretations to the professionals.

Two things really annoy me in that thread:

1) How the great VDP is treated. I won't belabor this point, and just refer to Dan Lega's posts for the details.

2) The usual game of second and third guessing everything Brian ever said, because, you know... Brian is Brian. "You can't believe him when he explains that obscure verbiage by VDP. He is parroting. You know... Brian is Brian."

They’re retconning Young Brian to be the stereotype of Old Brian.

[Zenobi]

Of course I understand Craig (and probably other people here) being rather fed up with all this!

Despite that, I decided to start this let's-beat-this-poor-horse-again thread for several reasons.

Firstly, I read the thread in the other forum and was impressed by Dan's stoic resilience in "fighting the good fight" against practically a whole board. I wanted to open a different space to pursue, for Dan and similarly minded people, the same matter with the due respect for Brian, VDP and SMiLE, and without bogus revisionism.

Secondly, things have been really slow here. I thought to myself: nothing like a good SMiLE thread to rekindle a bit of discussion, after the documentary fizzled out.

Thirdly, I was wondering if some of the people here had partly changed idea about SMiLE now in 2024. Seems not... good!

[Zenobi]

When, I talk of "bogus revisionism" I don't mean theories on what made SMiLE flounder. In my opinion, as there was never a consensus about that, one cannot talk of "revisionism" in that sense

But... there IS a practically universal consensus about SMiLE's VALUE. It's a masterpiece of pop/rock music (and of art pop, of psychedelia, etc.).

A section of the "fandom" seems to go beyond discussing the reason for SMiLE's demise, to hint more or less explicitly that such demise was RIGHT: the project was pretentious, uncommercial, elitist, whatever. Brian and VDP had it coming.

I find that mind-boggling.

[Zenobi]

And adding to the mentions of Marilyn's comments, I just have to say for my own sake and sanity that I would have added more to this worthwhile discussion earlier but I'm a little burned out on it considering I've been discussing these same issues for over 20 years and in recent years have contributed a lot to similar discussions, and I just feel like I'm repeating what has already been said and debated. If people either choose to ignore or simply not believe and then parse what has been on the record for many decades, I guess that's their choice, but it's sad and at least it is only a relatively small pocket of "fans" who continue trying to rewrite history or believe the rewritten history. All that can be done is to keep putting the facts about Smile out there to be seen and hopefully digested to counter the rewrites and outright falsehoods. I just don't have the time or energy right now to repeat what I've already said much more than to add a few things here and there.

So here are some relevant quotes from both Marilyn and Brian which I added to a discussion on these same topics back in 2021, taken from the Don Was documentary in 1995. If someone reads these and still doesn't believe this group dynamic happening between Brian and the other Boys in 1966 and 1967 was a factor in what happened with Smile, or chooses to dismiss what Dan Lega and others are saying about this element of the story and trying to bring it to the foreground as a contributing factor, there's not much more to be done for those people...they're either not willing to listen to facts and reason, or the attempts to rewrite Smile history took hold of them and they can't see the facts right in front of them for the past however many decades.

The quotes:

Relevant quotes to consider from the Don Was documentary:

Brian:
"I had a great big, a great problem with the Beach Boys. And I wanted to do my kind of music and they wanted to do their kind of music. So it was a tug of war, I felt like I was getting pulled to pieces. Like two...inner turmoil that's struggling, with the see-saw, kind of teeter totter kind of thing, you know? Where I was being pulled all around, you know? And I just about, I fell to pieces."

"When I was younger I was a real competitor, then as I got older I said is it worth the bull, the bullshit, you know, to compete like that? And I said, nah, for awhile there I said I just said hey I'm gonna coast, I'm gonna make real nice music, nothing competitive, right?"

Marilyn:
"He had a real hard time with the guys, after Pet Sounds and after Smile. Because he felt guilty that he got all the attention, and he was the one who was called the genius. And, you know, he knew, he felt that the guys really resented that, and I think they did. I think it was very hard for them to understand why is Brian Wilson singled out. But anybody with a brain would know why."

"Well he would slowly just stay in the bedroom and let the guys record in the studio, since the Beach Boys paid for the studio. And it just became more and more that he would just stay in bed, didn't want to go down, and, you know, 'let them do their thing, let them do their thing'. And it was very tough for him because he thought that they all hated him. I think it was like, 'OK you assholes, you know, you wanna...you think you can do as good as me, or whatever? Like, go ahead. So you can do it, you do it. You think it's so easy? You do it.'"

"And I don't think Brian really ever came back. I don't think he ever had the need, I mean...he was just torn down, he really was. They slowly tore him down. I hate to say it, but they did."

I have not and will not read what's on that other board, but my thank you to Dan Lega among others for trying to get the facts out there and into the discussions wherever they may be.

Personally, I agree that there was "pushback" by the band, and that it was probably harmful to SMiLE. What I sincerely don't know is how important it was relative to the other reasons.

Let's say that, as a Beach Boy fan, I HOPE they themselves (and, of course, particularly Mike) weren't the main reason... because that would really suck.
 
As I said, I tend to blame mostly an almost unavoidable "loss of momentum". There was a time window of some months to do "THE" SMiLE, and by Spring 1967 it was too late. We had instead "a" SMiLE, minimalistic but still a masterpiece: Smiley Smile.

[rab2591]

Post from that EH thread:

Brian "explained" the lyrics to Jules Seigel - or most likely parroted what Van Dyke had told him they mean -  back in December 1966 and then said “Of course that’s a very intellectual explanation... But maybe sometimes you have to do an intellectual thing. If they don’t get the words, they’ll get the music. You can get hung up in words, you know. Maybe they work; I don’t know.”

Does that sound like someone who understands the words?

Same poster, a couple pages later:

Never said Brian didn't understand them: I'm sure he did, once VDP had walked him through them, which I'm pretty sure is exactly what happened.

And the entire latter part of the thread is full of this doublespeak garbage from a plethora of posters. Like Guitarfool stated, this fight has been going on for 20+ years now. Pretty much the same people, ignoring actual history, facts, and quotes, all to appease their own illogical echo chamber.

One poster is arguing that VDP’s Smile lyrics were seemingly written at a “PhD review panel” level and that, because newspapers are written at a 6th grade level, VDPs shouldn’t have tried to “riddle the customers.”

To that I respond: how many 6th graders knew what a flathead mill was? How about a competition clutch? How about lake pipes? How many 6th graders across America knew where Narabeen, Trestle, San Anofree, Waimia Bay were? Yet why did both of those songs reach #15 & #2 on the charts respectively? Because, shocker, Brian was correct in his assertion that if the kids don’t get the words, they at least get the music.

The people who subtly/slowly attempt to chip away at Brian’s reputation will do this doublespeak and they will create these illogical arguments and then, when there is pushback, they’ll tell YOU that YOU are being disruptive, agenda driven, and claim YOU are the one who believes “2+2=5” (all while touting how tolerant their forum is).

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Beach Boys history can see right through this idiocy, but I truly feel bad for the newcomers on that forum who gets suckered into believing this muck.

Bottom line: go look at Metacritic’s top reviewed albums of all time list. What two names are there on that #3 album? That would be Brian Wilson & Van Dyke Parks (this same album received a standing ovation from Paul McCartney, 3 Grammy nominations, winning 1 Grammy). This nonsense about “PhDs” and Brian somehow understanding yet simultaneously not understanding the lyrics, it can all be tossed in the garbage bin where it belongs.

[rab2591]

I also want to give a shoutout to Van Dyke Parks’ incredible musical career.

If anyone here hasn’t, do try to listen to ‘Song Cycle’. Knowing this album came directly after Smile, I think you can really hear the influence in the production of the album. And then, ‘Discover America’ (his second album) is such a cool trip - I seem to remember the concept supposedly being an RV trip across the islands (not unlike a bicycle trip across America).

To dig even deeper, the ‘Esso Trinidad Steel Drum Band’ CD is a must if you like ‘Discover America’.

Check out the ending minutes of the U2 song ‘All I Want is You’ - a haunting yet downright beautiful orchestral piece, that could come from none-other than Van Dyke Parks.

And finally, his ‘Moonlighting: Live at the Ash Grove’ album is one of the coolest live albums ever - not so much in its breadth, but in its depth. There is so much musical talent there (both in songwriting and performance) all on one album.

There’s definitely more, but those are the highlights off the top of my head.

[Zenobi]

Song Cycle is unbelievable. Besides being a wonderful experimental, psychedelic album by itself, it helps to "get" what SMiLE was trying to be, and shows how probably VDP's work went beyond lyrics, and was instilling further creativity into Brian's already staggering reservoir.

The "naysayers" in the IF (Inclusive Forum) should all stand up and celebrate Van with a standing ovation, instead of what they are doing.

[Zenobi]

Post from that EH thread:

Brian "explained" the lyrics to Jules Seigel - or most likely parroted what Van Dyke had told him they mean -  back in December 1966 and then said “Of course that’s a very intellectual explanation... But maybe sometimes you have to do an intellectual thing. If they don’t get the words, they’ll get the music. You can get hung up in words, you know. Maybe they work; I don’t know.”

Does that sound like someone who understands the words?

Same poster, a couple pages later:

Never said Brian didn't understand them: I'm sure he did, once VDP had walked him through them, which I'm pretty sure is exactly what happened.

And the entire latter part of the thread is full of this doublespeak garbage from a plethora of posters. Like Guitarfool stated, this fight has been going on for 20+ years now. Pretty much the same people, ignoring actual history, facts, and quotes, all to appease their own illogical echo chamber.

One poster is arguing that VDP’s Smile lyrics were seemingly written at a “PhD review panel” level and that, because newspapers are written at a 6th grade level, VDPs shouldn’t have tried to “riddle the customers.”

To that I respond: how many 6th graders knew what a flathead mill was? How about a competition clutch? How about lake pipes? How many 6th graders across America knew where Narabeen, Trestle, San Anofree, Waimia Bay were? Yet why did both of those songs reach #15 & #2 on the charts respectively? Because, shocker, Brian was correct in his assertion that if the kids don’t get the words, they at least get the music.

The people who subtly/slowly attempt to chip away at Brian’s reputation will do this doublespeak and they will create these illogical arguments and then, when there is pushback, they’ll tell YOU that YOU are being disruptive, agenda driven, and claim YOU are the one who believes “2+2=5” (all while touting how tolerant their forum is).

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Beach Boys history can see right through this idiocy, but I truly feel bad for the newcomers on that forum who gets suckered into believing this muck.

Bottom line: go look at Metacritic’s top reviewed albums of all time list. What two names are there on that #3 album? That would be Brian Wilson & Van Dyke Parks (this same album received a standing ovation from Paul McCartney, 3 Grammy nominations, winning 1 Grammy). This nonsense about “PhDs” and Brian somehow understanding yet simultaneously not understanding the lyrics, it can all be tossed in the garbage bin where it belongs.

Congrats for detecting and highlighting that particularly blatant, but far from unique, example of "doublespeak", Brian "understaning but not understanding".

I have shown several times that my point of view is that of a fan of all the Beach Boys. But... what's happening in that thread beats me.

And I think it's right to keep calling the BS when it manifests. Even just to try and alert those younger fans, who may not know all the history of the Beach Boys, and its fandom, that what passes for "truth" in that forum is not necessarily true, and is sometimes (all too often?) the result of distorted interpretations.

[rab2591]

Well said, Zenobi. One thing I will forever stress to all fans, new and old, is that you should never blindly trust what you read on any of these forums. If I myself, another poster, someone who gets off on claiming to be of high scholarly esteem regarding the band, etc, claim something: don't automatically believe it! If you read something that doesn't ring right, you're probably correct in that assumption - but look into it. If someone PMs you some 'secret' information or opinions, do your research. Don't just assume that people with a high post count or a flashy scholarly signature on their forum tag actually know what they're talking about. Because most of the old-timers on these forums belong to some clique, or have an ax to grind, a history of spreading rumors, etc etc.

Research and history aren't monopolized by one person, rather it's for any one of us who cares about the truth of this band and the music. And it's as easy as googling an article, opening a book, emailing the sources themselves.

[Zenobi]

Better said, Rab.

I should not have written "what passes for truth in that forum", it should have been "what passes for truth in forums".

Or rather, in 2024, even "what passes for truth anywhere".

Truth is more and more an endangered animal... and the supposed "true news" are often faker than the "fake news".

[Dan Lega]

Thanks again for your help, your nice comments, and for letting me know I'm not the only one who feels this way about things in the world of SMiLE.  Twenty years ago I, too, was back there in the original fight, and didn't expect to be drawn back into it at this time.  But I really didn't like the way they were being unkind to Van Dyke Parks.  And from there it just spiralled.  And since I had the energy I went ahead and stuck my foot in the dogshit again -- hoping to at least let some people know that they were possibly not getting the whole story on that forum.

----------------

And I'm not out of it, yet.  I went to the Disney+ doc and found some quotes, and wrote this on the other board.  I thought some of you might like to see the quotes from the Disney+ doc, though some are obviously taken from the Don Was doc as Guitarfool has previously quoted...

----------------

Here are Carl and Brian quotes from the Disney documentary (which I believe were also on another documentary.)  The rest of the quotes seem to be recorded for this new doc as far as I can tell.

These are taken from the SMiLE to Smiley Smile section of the documentary...


Carl:  He (Mike Love) thought the lyrics were not relatable.  Personally, I loved it.  So artistic and abstract.  I realized that Brian and Van Dyke were expressing a new poetry.  But it could be that it was not an appropriate project for The Beach Boys.  Maybe that would have been most fitting as Brian's album.

Brian:  I wanted to do my kind of music, and they wanted to do their kind of music.  So, it was a tug-of-war.  I felt like I was getting pulled to pieces.

(Longer quote copied from a poster on the Smiley Smile board...)
Brian -- from Don Was documentary:  "I had a great big, a great problem with the Beach Boys. And I wanted to do my kind of music and they wanted to do their kind of music. So it was a tug of war, I felt like I was getting pulled to pieces. Like two...inner turmoil that's struggling, with the see-saw, kind of teeter totter kind of thing, you know? Where I was being pulled all around, you know? And I just about, I fell to pieces."

Al Jardine:  We were pretty exhausted by then.  And so, we decided to build a studio inside Brian's home.  And we were able to come back together socially, and actually enjoy doing what we were doing again.  It's almost like starting over.  And so we made this little album called Smiley Smile.

Marilyn:  He (Brian) was at this point with The Beach Boys where they weren't as happy with the music he wanted to create.  You know, there was a lot of squabbling going on all the time.  And Brian just said, "You know what?  Let them do it.  Let them do it.  Let them see how easy it is."   (So Marilyn is obviously talking about SMiLE here, because when else is it documented that the Boys were not happy with the music Brian was creating?)

Lindsay Buckingham:  Even though he (Brian) was the mastermind, he, suddenly, did not have their full support.  And, I think, because it was his family, it made that much more difficult and, perhaps, much more demanding on his psyche.  So many artists who have very, very significant commercial success forget why they got into the business in the first place.  Why they do music.  And now, you are judging your validity through commerce more than anything else.  

<End of quotes>

=========


Seems Carl has reservations about SMiLE, too.  Seemingly loves it, but doesn't think it's appropriate for The Beach Boys.  And the quote from Al makes it sound like there was a definite tension in the group before they were able to "reconcile" in the studio at Brian's house.


=========


And here are some more Marilyn quotes from the Don Was documentary, courtesy of the Smiley Smile board...

Marilyn:
"He had a real hard time with the guys, after Pet Sounds and after Smile. Because he felt guilty that he got all the attention, and he was the one who was called the genius. And, you know, he knew, he felt that the guys really resented that, and I think they did. I think it was very hard for them to understand why is Brian Wilson singled out. But anybody with a brain would know why."

"Well he would slowly just stay in the bedroom and let the guys record in the studio, since the Beach Boys paid for the studio. And it just became more and more that he would just stay in bed, didn't want to go down, and, you know, 'let them do their thing, let them do their thing'. And it was very tough for him because he thought that they all hated him. I think it was like, 'OK you assholes, you know, you wanna...you think you can do as good as me, or whatever? Like, go ahead. So you can do it, you do it. You think it's so easy? You do it.'"

"And I don't think Brian really ever came back. I don't think he ever had the need, I mean...he was just torn down, he really was. They slowly tore him down. I hate to say it, but they did."


=========

I won't be remiss, I'll also point out that in the Disney+ doc you can find some quotes that follow this (Endless Harmony) board's reasoning much more closely.  But to only focus only on those and to totally dismiss the others doesn't seem very valid to me.  Nor does it seem to be what a true historian would do!  When a person totally disregards quotes like these they are not advancing research.  They are advancing their own agenda.


Love and merci,
Dan Lega

[Zenobi]

Lindsay Buckingham: "Even though he (Brian) was the mastermind, he, suddenly, did not have their full support.  And, I think, because it was his family, it made that much more difficult and, perhaps, much more demanding on his psyche.  So many artists who have very, very significant commercial success forget why they got into the business in the first place.  Why they do music.  And now, you are judging your validity through commerce more than anything else."

THIS. And not only regarding the artists, but, it seems, even more regarding "fandom". When people lambast Heroes and Villains because it was not #1
stuff... I understand being DISAPPOINTED by that, but too many BB "fans" seem to have this really maddening mindset: small commercial success = small artistic value.

So, let's dump the Boys altogether: there are far more successful "artists" in 2024, innit?

[Robbie Mac]

Lindsay Buckingham: "Even though he (Brian) was the mastermind, he, suddenly, did not have their full support.  And, I think, because it was his family, it made that much more difficult and, perhaps, much more demanding on his psyche.  So many artists who have very, very significant commercial success forget why they got into the business in the first place.  Why they do music.  And now, you are judging your validity through commerce more than anything else."

THIS. And not only regarding the artists, but, it seems, even more regarding "fandom". When people lambast Heroes and Villains because it was not #1
stuff... I understand being DISAPPOINTED by that, but too many BB "fans" seem to have this really maddening mindset: small commercial success = small artistic value.

So, let's dump the Boys altogether: there are far more successful "artists" in 2024, innit?

When Lindsey said that, I immediately thought of his struggle with the rest of Fleetwood Mac to make the Tusk album. If there is anyone who could understand Brian’s mindset during the SMiLE era as an artist, it’s Lindsey Buckingham.

[rab2591]

Marilyn:
"He had a real hard time with the guys, after Pet Sounds and after Smile. Because he felt guilty that he got all the attention, and he was the one who was called the genius. And, you know, he knew, he felt that the guys really resented that, and I think they did. I think it was very hard for them to understand why is Brian Wilson singled out. But anybody with a brain would know why."

So people are claiming that Marylin, in this quote, is talking solely about the period after Friends (because Brian produced the 3 albums after Smile?)

Okay, even excluding the very obvious “Pet Sounds, AND after Smile” - (“and” meaning “in addition” - and that’s not my interpretation, that’s just elementary reading comprehension), just look at the context of what Marylin is talking about: Brian felt there was resentment from the band because he had been labeled a “genius”. Now when did that start?

Derek Taylor was employed by The Beach Boys in 1966, and around the time of Pet Sounds he started the “Brian is a genius” campaign. So if there was resentment toward Brian, according to Marylin, about Brian’s genius label, wouldn’t it stand to reason that this resentment started when this lofty “genius” campaign started? Not, 2 years and 3 albums after Smile?

Dan, I’m assuming your point in bringing up the Marylin quote is to show that there was turmoil in the band during the Smile Sessions which aided in, or was the main cause of, the demise of Smile. And people on the EH forum are arguing against this because they believe that the band turmoil started solely after the Smile era?

Here are a couple quotes from Mike regarding VDPs, Pet Sounds, Smile:

“In fact, Brian has even said in interviews that I didn’t like the album (Smile), I did like the music, the tracks, but I didn’t like the association with the drugs and some of the lyrics that Van Dyke came up with.“

“That used to be "Hang On To Your Ego" and then it became "I Know There's An Answer." I changed the lyrics because I thought it was too acid for me. That was those guys doing acid, Van Dyke Parks, and Brian and Tony Asher.”

That on top of Van Dyke’s recollection of Mike’s dislike of the lyrics, specifically Cabin Essence.

Personally, I don’t chalk the failure of Smile up to one reason. I think it was a perfect storm of inner and external turmoil that Brian was going through. I think the demise was part of the same fractal that caused Brian to quit touring a couple years prior: the pressure was too great. I think that Brian really dug those lyrics from VDPs (I mean, you don’t sit in a sandbox all night and record music for 4 months based around lyrics you hate), but clearly Mike had issues with some of the lyrics. And clearly a lack of support from your colleagues (or even one colleague) can be detrimental to a project. Pile that on top of the mental issues and the drug use and it’s a recipe for disaster. Put ALL the quotes regarding Smile’s demise into a blender and you’ll get a mixture of drugs, mental illness, band turmoil, and issues with Capitol Records.

That’s just my two cents. To me, it’s not solely one reason or another. Obviously there are those who continue to try and rewrite history in Mike’s favor, but at the end of the day, access to the internet and real sources, as well as a basic grasp on logic will reveal the truth.

[Zenobi]

I agree with you on practically everything, but I have a somewhat different "theory" about the demise of SMiLE.

Right, poor Brian found himself in a "perfect storm": everything was unfavourable.

But, said that, I simply can't picture a scenario where "THE" SMiLE would be completed and released in 1967. SMiLE how Brian and VDP had envisioned, a majestic modular concept album with every part as polished and perfect as "Good Vibrations".

Even if no storm, perfect or not, had manifested, there was not the technology available to do that in a few months, which was the time window available, both for external and internal reasons.

They, Brian and VDP, knew this very well by Spring 1967. Yes, they could have released a "3/4 SMiLE": we can listen to such a musical wonder in Disc 1 of the 2011 Box.

But Brian, as many artists have done, refused to release a 3/4 approximation of his masterpiece. Instead, he rebooted and released an album originated by SMiLE but much more laid back, and feasible: the aptly named, and anyway wonderful, Smiley Smile.

This is my very personal one cent "solution" of the mystery.

P.S.
To clarify: I am not blaming either Brian or VDP. They, as great artists often do, attempted very gallantly to do the impossible.

[rab2591]

But, said that, I simply can't picture a scenario where "THE" SMiLE would be completed and released in 1967. SMiLE how Brian and VDP had envisioned, a majestic modular concept album with every part as polished and perfect as "Good Vibrations".

Even if no storm, perfect or not, had manifested, there was not the technology available to do that in a few months, which was the time window available, both for external and internal reasons.

Actually I agree with this 100%. I still contend that the perfect storm occurred, but also you're totally right that it just couldn't have happened regardless, which is why it just didn't happen.

It is my humble (and unpopular) opinion that BWPS is THE Smile. Brian was able to finish his masterpiece when the storm clouds cleared up enough, when the technology was there, when he had solid 100% support from family, friends, and band members.

[guitarfool2002]

I'll get into the other issues too, but I just wanted to state again how there is one element that doesn't get put on the discussion table as much as others. As all of this "turmoil" and other issues were swirling around the making of Smile, Brian had written and produced a groundbreaking single for the band, Good Vibrations, which in some regions was still charting #1 going into January 1967.  It had a new sound, a radically different song form based more on a symphony of movements than traditional pop song form, radical new sounds and techniques involving editing and studio effects that were not in the pop lexicon as of 1966 for the most part...and the public loved it. It stayed on the charts for several months, and many musicians and listeners accepted these "new sounds" and psychedelic undertones and were actually in awe of how Brian made that record. It was "Sgt Pepper" and "Strawberry Fields" months before either of those came out.

My point bringing that up is Brian as main creator and producer now had clout, both in the industry and maybe even moreso within his band and family. I see a scenario come up where if Brian was in fact challenged on his wild musical experimentation and far-out ideas in the studio, he could pick up a Billboard or Cashbox or an imported copy of Melody Maker or whatever, point to Good Vibrations sitting in the top 5 if not number 1 depending on the week, and say nothing. His far-out ideas were validated, at least commercially, and they would make the band a lot more money in the next year thanks to a number 1 smash hit record that was "far out". And it put a new spotlight on the band as a solid musical entity that could stand toe-to-toe with The Beatles and make groundbreaking music that also sold records.

If this young proto-prog-psych producer putting Theremins and rattling jewelry and crazy tape delay effects scored a number 1 going outside the box of standard pop music, he had more clout to do more of that, all the record companies cared about was selling more records and making more money.

In the midst of all this success, and check the 1968 Vosse "Fusion" article for the exact quotes, he was getting pushback from his family, Murry in particular, for going too far outside that box and losing the band's fan base. Vosse speaks as if he was incredulous when he heard this from Murry, and looking back it does seem unbelievable. But the hints are that this sentiment was not limited to Murry, and it was a concern moving forward.

Now rewind back to early 1966 when Brian first put that initial version of Good Vibrations on tape, the one with the Asher lyrics. He had a great concept for the lyrics, he had many of the key musical sections in place, but it just didn't cross the finish line into a fully realized record that Brian could say was finished. He started recording fragments, envisioning something beyond a start-to-finish track. The feel, which I think David Anderle described as "heavy R&B", started to change and shift too. Brian eventually would nearly give up on the track. He was seriously considering giving the track away to another artist. Anderle's client Danny Hutton when he was still a solo act on MGM was one who may have been a potential recipient of this song gift. Brian even asked Van Dyke to help with lyrics on it at one point, and Van Dyke outright refused the job.

So this potentially great song sat there, went through some changes and revisions, and was almost given away because Brian had not yet hit on that magic formula that glued it all together. This was a months-long process! Does that sound familiar? Eventually Brian got some support from his inner circle who told him it was too good to give away, to keep going with it, and in a stroke off good fortune (portrayed beautifully, yet again, in the L&M biopic), he asked Mike if he could add some lyrics to it. Once he had all the pieces together, there was the number 1 he and the band needed at the end of 1966 and into 1967.

But look at how it arrived to that destination. It wasn't a straight line from idea to creation to completion. It was too complex to be that simple of a process. Consider all of the detours and potholes along that road, and I still say Good Vibrations is a microcosm of Smile in the process through which it traveled. Only this was one 3-minute pop song versus a full album. And when it did come out, after all the doubts (both self-inflicted and external), it became a smash hit worldwide.

I'm just suggesting that the process for Good Vibrations be considered within the discussions of what happened with Smile, and take note of the similarities and the differences between the two, and they did overlap eventually by the summer and fall of 1966 when both were being created simultaneously. There were external factors involved with Good Vibrations too, and even after Brian's experiments were validated with Good Vibrations' success, family members like Murry were still challenging him and his experimentation while the public and the music community were listening in awe, and buying it in large quantities.

Brian was still having doubt thrown his way, from within his family and band, after a hugely successful record which people around him helped boost his confidence to finish it the way he thought it needed to be instead of giving it away...it would seem to back up those quotes from Marilyn and Brian that were just reposted.

Just rambling out loud.