Documentary!

[HeyJude]

I'm not the "on topic" police, really! What I'm trying to say is that from the outside, this thread has a few pages of posts that just look like random, arbitrary axe-grinding against other fans from other boards, and regarding things that in many cases happened like a decade ago. I won't belabor the point; if people want this thread to be that, then that's how it'll be I guess.

HeyJude, it was at max 5 specific posts that mentioned the supposed arbitrary "axe-grinding" you speak of. How the heck does that constitute a few pages?? I even wrote in my last post that out of 75 posts there were 18 that talked about the anti-Brian thing. 18 doesn't even make up a page, and again, 5 of those were your posts. Most of the posts in the last 3 pages relate directly to the documentary.

This ridiculous back and forth you and I are having about this is more obnoxious than the posts in question. So I recommend, if you're having an issue with the supposed perception of what these threads look like "from the outside", perhaps don't spend 6+ posts complaining/arguing about the 5 posts you're peeved about.

To be perfectly frank, by saying "people" have been saying this or that, or "recent posts have been saying" this or that, I've really just been trying to avoid making it personal and calling out specific people. THAT'S probably why it seems like I'm talking about more people/posts than I actually am.

I read several posts in good faith thinking there was ANY connection to the documentary, and I did retrace and look at previous posts as well. There was NO connection, so I was left with two options: Those posts were just grinding mostly very old axes (and in the process making generalizations about the band and fandom that I don't always agree with), or they were trying to imply or insinuate that the documentary *is* part of whatever the agenda is they're talking about.

So, Instead of quoting and responding to one person with "what the f**k are you talking about?" and then going on and on, I've been (fruitlessly as it turns out) trying the more broad approach of "Hey folks, I don't think this has anything to do with the documentary."

That's the long (and not so short) of it.

[rab2591]

1) someone brought up the "lie" that the post-1967 Beach Boys didn't do much. This poster was VERY clear in how their comments relate to the documentary.
2) someone else saw the "lie" part of that post and made a post relating to a connecting "lie" which related to the anti-Brian/Melinda drama from years past.

This is probably at the heart of it. There is no connection. In my opinion, obviously.

My issue has been that a productive dissection/analysis of this documentary goes *completely off the rails* when it draws ANY connection to fan drama bulls**t. And I say that as someone who is *very well versed* in both the history of the band, fandom on the internet for the last nearly 30 years (going back to the Usenet days), and of course specifically this board since 2005. The documentary has serious problems, and I feel that veering into stuff regarding a sliver of "anti-Melinda/Brian" fans from a decade ago COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT.

But as I mentioned in my previous post, I shouldn't belabor the point much beyond that, and if people want the thread to be that, then that's how it'll proceed.

The vast majority of the posts since the initial "Brian f***ed with" post ARE directly about the documentary (whether specific problems with it, or reviews from watchers). So the thread didn't even become close to derailing. Again, most of the posts relating to the anti-Brian thing are back-and-forth between you and other posters. Otherwise, it probably would've stayed at the 5 initial posts and ended there.

As for there being no connection. Guitarfool is painfully clear why he brought up what he did. Zenobi brought up a great point about the false perception of post-1967 Beach Boys and how the documentary kinda perpetuates that perception. Guitarfool brought up instances where that false perception had been perpetuated elsewhere. It's just a progression of a few posts relating to false perceptions within The Beach Boys world. It's really not worth all this back-and-forth.

Anyways, I'm peacing out for some dinner.

[Zenobi]

Have a nice dinner, Rab. You sure deserve it!

[HeyJude]

The vast majority of the posts since the initial "Brian f***ed with" post ARE directly about the documentary (whether specific problems with it, or reviews from watchers). So the thread didn't even become close to derailing. Again, most of the posts relating to the anti-Brian thing are back-and-forth between you and other posters. Otherwise, it probably would've stayed at the 5 initial posts and ended there.

As for there being no connection. Guitarfool is painfully clear why he brought up what he did. Zenobi brought up a great point about the false perception of post-1967 Beach Boys and how the documentary kinda perpetuates that perception. Guitarfool brought up instances where that false perception had been perpetuated elsewhere. It's just a progression of a few posts relating to false perceptions within The Beach Boys world. It's really not worth all this back-and-forth.

Anyways, I'm peacing out for some dinner.

You seem to be getting hung up on the number of posts that fall under this category of missing the point. I've explained in a previous post that I understand how, in the process of trying to not call people out individually, my issues with such posts may have given the impression that I thought this was a problem of *volume* rather than of content. Again, refer to my previous post where I was basically trying to say "that doesn't seem related to the documentary" rather than "what the f**k?

To be more specific, my issue was with those posts that aren't about the documentary and veer into weird vendetta/axe-grinding territory about a semi-nebulous group that is out to "f**k over Brian Wilson", etc., regardless of the proportion/volume of such posts in relation to the thread.

Posts like this:

My guess about why there are so many people trying to f... over Brian is simply: envy. Brian is rightly recognized as a genius, and many mediocre, talentless hacks just can't accept that. He has to be "downsized", at all costs.

I'll try in the future to just pinpoint the specific posts I'm talking about and be more direct so I'm not giving the impression of a wider issue than is the case.

As for my post having "prolonged" the contention, I've seen that runaround/back-and-forth a zillion times on message boards. Who's prolonging it? The off-topic posts in contention, or me for continuing to talk about it, or you for talking about me talking about it?

It's all good. I'm working on a review/breakdown of the doc. Hopefully I can post sooner rather than later and we can see how much people are interested in continuing to talk about the documentary itself.

[rab2591]

You seem to be getting hung up on the number of posts that fall under this category of missing the point.

Yeah where would I have gotten the impression that you were referring to volume instead of the content of 2 or 3 posts...

What I'm trying to say is that from the outside, this thread has a few pages of posts that just look like random, arbitrary axe-grinding against other fans from other boards,

You gotta make up your mind as to what you're actually pissed off about. Because it's really starting to grate on me how you keep ignoring points or moving goalposts.

I really don't understand your argumentative nature lately. You've suggested that posters here are claiming that the filmmakers are anti-Melinda and no one came remotely close to saying that. You've suggested that this "anti-Brian fan" talk was derived from posts theorizing why this documentary sucks when that isn't remotely the case. Between this and the AI-Beach Boys thread I just have no idea why you've been so difficult to interact with lately. And I really don't understand why a couple posts with content you think doesn't belong here deserves a conversation 5-times more obnoxious and distracting than what you're peeved about.

I gotta make a huge apology to any good-hearted fans who just want to read about the documentary and instead have to sift through our back and forth (which again is probably more obnoxious than the 3 posts or 3 pages of posts that HeyJude is pissed off about). Really was not my intention for this to drag on as long as it has.

Anyways, I'm peacing out for some dessert.

[HeyJude]

You seem to be getting hung up on the number of posts that fall under this category of missing the point.

Yeah where would I have gotten the impression that you were referring to volume instead of the content of 2 or 3 posts...

What I'm trying to say is that from the outside, this thread has a few pages of posts that just look like random, arbitrary axe-grinding against other fans from other boards,

You gotta make up your mind as to what you're actually pissed off about. Because it's really starting to grate on me how you keep ignoring points or moving goalposts.

I really don't understand your argumentative nature lately. You've suggested that posters here are claiming that the filmmakers are anti-Melinda and no one came remotely close to saying that. You've suggested that this "anti-Brian fan" talk was derived from posts theorizing why this documentary sucks when that isn't remotely the case. Between this and the AI-Beach Boys thread I just have no idea why you've been so difficult to interact with lately. And I really don't understand why a couple posts with content you think doesn't belong here deserves a conversation 5-times more obnoxious and distracting than what you're peeved about.

I gotta make a huge apology to any good-hearted fans who just want to read about the documentary and instead have to sift through our back and forth (which again is probably more obnoxious than the 3 posts or 3 pages of posts that HeyJude is pissed off about). Really was not my intention for this to drag on as long as it has.

Anyways, I'm peacing out for some dessert.

"Number" as in quantity.

Beyond that,  I can't add any further clarification beyond what I've written.  If the people whose posts I've been talking about want to discuss,  I'm down for that.

I'm sorry you're not vibing my recent posts.  It happens.  If people are willing to keep the board active and we all keep posting,  I'm sure we'll land on the same wavelength before too long. 

[Zenobi]

Well, after having been singled yet once more for a sentence which only wanted to support what Craig had much more eloquently said, my only answer is this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ThJcHjCI9j4

[HeyJude]

DHL has posted a promotional tie in to the documentary:

https://youtu.be/geRkBjhKgVU?si=0X2Mr6Frrg-VYchR

They sent a Beach Boys tape to Abbey Road, for... reasons? Or maybe they didn't even really send anything?

Either way,  DHL!

[rab2591]

I'm sorry you're not vibing my recent posts.  It happens.  If people are willing to keep the board active and we all keep posting,  I'm sure we'll land on the same wavelength before too long. 

Most definitely. We agree on a lot of stuff, and I have most always gotten a lot of value from your posts over the years - jeesh nearing two decades for me

I know you’re not trolling but I’m also just not clicking with what you’re saying here. Like you say, it happens.

[SMiLE Brian]

Bruce seems to have chilled out…

[Zenobi]

Bruce seems to have chilled out…

Bruce has always been a chill guy. Just give him a Mike... sorry, a mike... to adjust.

[CenturyDeprived]

I finally watched the documentary a couple nights ago.

I went into watching it with extremely low expectations after having read this thread, but I have to say I thought it was far, far better than I was expecting. Maybe that was because the bar was set so low, maybe I'm just a sucker for some of the documentary filmmaking tropes that were used, but it gave me the feels, and I thought it was very well done for what it was.

That said…

I can also completely understand why hardcore fans really don't like it, because it definitely omits so very much, and certainly the band deserves way way better and more comprehensive a documentary.

I think this is probably just the best that we were going to get considering the politics that are involved with the surviving members, and what I presume is the mission of financial stakeholders in the brand to make this a two hour long EPK to try to get more casual fans a bit more invested in the story.

It's definitely a missed opportunity in many ways, but I am able to hold two different truths in my head simultaneously and I can also say that I really quite enjoyed it nonetheless.

[Zenobi]

The documentary does not just ignore too many things. It also practically states that whatever the Beach Boys did, after 1966, was a failure, and so the general public was right in ignoring them. This, in 2024, is unbelievably regressive, and frankly unforgivable.
I kept on topic this time.

[SMiLE Brian]

It’s better for business if the 15 big ones era is forgotten….

[Angela Jones]

The documentary does not just ignore too many things. It also practically states that whatever the Beach Boys did, after 1966, was a failure, and so the general public was right in ignoring them. This, in 2024, is unbelievably regressive, and frankly unforgivable.
I kept on topic this time.

'To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.' Jack Rieley (and I know one person here uses this as their quote). Sometimes it may not be the fault of the group themselves - they've had a mess of help to be in that situation.

[rab2591]

Reminds me of this quote from a few pages back:

Unless Taylor Swift is recording/touring with them or dating one of their grandkids, I doubt new fans will care about The Beach Boys.


Jon Stebbins said it best regarding the delayed release of the feel flows set. Look at the history of the band, the answer is obvious. Finding a way to f*** up a beautiful thing. It's in the DNA of the Beach Boys. Sadly this documentary was no exception.

I think the Boys are something angelic - I really do. I think they found/created a sound that connects with so many people on a spiritual/emotional level. So thus, since in my mind I place their music in an almost spiritual realm, and I guess that's why I get disappointed when the realities of earth (the pettiness, greed, etc) get in the way of their music being promoted properly.

I feel like their story and music are brilliant, and thus are worthy of being told in a brilliant way. Being middle-of-the-road just doesn't work with this band, because their music is worth so much more than that.

[HeyJude]

I finally watched the documentary a couple nights ago.

I went into watching it with extremely low expectations after having read this thread, but I have to say I thought it was far, far better than I was expecting. Maybe that was because the bar was set so low, maybe I'm just a sucker for some of the documentary filmmaking tropes that were used, but it gave me the feels, and I thought it was very well done for what it was.

That said…

I can also completely understand why hardcore fans really don't like it, because it definitely omits so very much, and certainly the band deserves way way better and more comprehensive a documentary.

I think this is probably just the best that we were going to get considering the politics that are involved with the surviving members, and what I presume is the mission of financial stakeholders in the brand to make this a two hour long EPK to try to get more casual fans a bit more invested in the story.

It's definitely a missed opportunity in many ways, but I am able to hold two different truths in my head simultaneously and I can also say that I really quite enjoyed it nonetheless.

I think it's definitely possible that if one goes in with rock bottom expectations, there are portions of the early part of the doc that seem okay.

I think it's easier across the board to tell that early era story without nearly as much to get in the way, whether it's disagreement among band members, or a deficit on the part of the filmmakers. There's less to f**k up, and even a director with the most superficial level of interest in the telling the story is usually going to be more into telling the "origin" story.

I do think, though, that the idea that it's just hardcore fans that this doc won't work for is letting this doc off far too easily. If you try to put yourself in the frame of mind of various levels of being a fan, from moderator to zero knowledge, this documentary as *a film*, is problematic. Yes, I think it's true that people who don't know much of *anything* about the story are less apt to know what they're missing. You don't know what you don't know, so you don't know that you're missing important pieces. But again, I've spoken to several super casual fans, and even they can tell the doc gets really messy once it hits like 1966/67.

Unless you literally have no idea who this band is or what era they came from, it's impossible to watch the last 20-30 minutes of the doc and not notice how rushed and clipped it is.

As for guesses or assumptions that the swiss cheese nature of this documentary might be due to the band members/politics/BRI, I don't think we have the full story on that yet. As I've been saying, I *don't* think that's as major of a problem for this doc. The major problem from what I can tell is that they handed this thing over to a company and director team who were the wrong fit for it, across the board. I probably wouldn't have grasped this nearly as well had Frank Marshall not gone out and done the press junkets and showed his hand, expressing his apparent simplistic view of the band/story. As I've probably mentioned, Marshall strikes me as the kind of rich old dude you'd see wearing a polo shirt sitting in the luxury box seating at a Mike Love Beach Boys winery gig.

I'm still working out doing a longer, in-depth breakdown of this thing. But I think the sheen on this thing may kind of cover up how messy and problematic the thing is. Like, I haven't seen it in years, but I think that old "E! True Hollywood Story" on the band may have been more interested in getting in there and actually telling more of the story.

[HeyJude]

Reminds me of this quote from a few pages back:

Unless Taylor Swift is recording/touring with them or dating one of their grandkids, I doubt new fans will care about The Beach Boys.


Jon Stebbins said it best regarding the delayed release of the feel flows set. Look at the history of the band, the answer is obvious. Finding a way to f*** up a beautiful thing. It's in the DNA of the Beach Boys. Sadly this documentary was no exception.

I think the Boys are something angelic - I really do. I think they found/created a sound that connects with so many people on a spiritual/emotional level. So thus, since in my mind I place their music in an almost spiritual realm, and I guess that's why I get disappointed when the realities of earth (the pettiness, greed, etc) get in the way of their music being promoted properly.

I feel like their story and music are brilliant, and thus are worthy of being told in a brilliant way. Being middle-of-the-road just doesn't work with this band, because their music is worth so much more than that.

I think, based on what I know right now, I'd say the documentary is less the typical "The BBs always F it up" scenario, and more that the fatal flaw/move/decision may have been the single decision to go with Disney and the director team they went with. I think, from there, it feels like it was much more out of their hands than other f-ups further back in their career.

They need good management/guidance. That situation has been *greatly* improved on many fronts, including finally having an ideal team and setup on the audio side of things, getting things together logistically and then also doing a good job of getting *the members* into it as well. All the guys, including Mike, are interested and cooperative with going deep on lesser-known eras. Mike did a Q&A at the Grammy museum for "Sail on Sailor." But they need someone to instigate it. For the audio releases, they have Howie and Boyd. But if they put a guy like Frank Marshall in charge of a doc, Frank Marshall isn't going to say "Hey guys, I think it's really important to go deep on 'Love You', so....."

[guitarfool2002]

Al Jardine spills the beans again:

“There is some really wonderful footage of our performing,” Jardine said. “But unfortunately, Carl and Dennis are gone, so you don’t have their point of view. You have the narrative, according to Mike Love, and you have me in there somewhere in between, going, uh-hmm, sure. The truth is, we didn’t have enough content the way I would have liked to have done it. The producer did what he could, with what he had.”

https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2024/05/beach-boys-cofounder-reflects-on-career-future/

I go back to this quote from Al, I think a lot of the shortcomings are spelled out in his few sentences clipped above. One point to consider is that Al spells out clearly that there is a "narrative according to Mike Love" and that sets up an "if...then" scenario, which could read if there is a narrative according to Mike, then there are other narratives which didn't get presented (I'm assuming Al's would be included in that), and of course that's been the case for decades. That alone suggests that a deeper exploration, a longer and more exhaustive project, is necessary to tell the story. And it also explains why more time is somehow dedicated to Mike's songwriting lawsuits than some of the actual music which is key to the story.

I think CD's description of this as an EPK is spot on...but even if it were serving in that capacity, it falls way short because not enough of the music itself (which is what the new corporation ultimately wants to market and sell) got featured in the actual project. I guess we're left to cobble together the missing pieces on our own using existing material, but how many of the new or casual fans who this project was supposed to inspire are going to do that? And how many are going to take what's shown here after the 66-67 segments at face value, or believe things that don't tell the whole story (or in doing so present a distorted view of something) as I'm sure many did in the 80's with the Summer Dreams movie or in 2000 with the American Family film.

This could have been a multi-part series going through the years in hour-long segments, which tried to cover all narratives and which would make for a fascinating A/B comparison on competing version, but as CD said, it's essentially a promotional EPK whose goal wasn't what many fans were looking for.

[SMiLE Brian]

Mike should reissue “an American family” at this point.

[guitarfool2002]

All of this reminds me that I need to see "Echo In The Canyon" again, as I'm remembering the scenes where the musicians are sitting around a coffee table with stacks of records talking about the music and some of those albums included Wild Honey, Pet Sounds, Smile, one of the H&V 45's, etc. And I thought that spirit of enjoying the music on the basic level of having a rap session and playing records with and for your friends is the organic part of it all that I wonder if fans are feeling from this new doc.  Echo In The Canyon also put the Beach Boys and their music at the forefront of music that should be appreciated and heard by a wider audience who may not have listened to, say, Wild Honey all that much, but who may have seen it on that coffee table and thought hey, I need to check this out. It also had a truly fantastic ending scene, which I will not spoil, but let's just say the Disney film could have done something similar and gone out on a joyous and bittersweet note, but instead Kokomo rolls over the end credits.

That doc had a certain spirit to it which is hard to codify, but you know it when you feel it.

I would have loved to see scenes where the surviving Beach Boys sit around a table stacked with records and a turntable, not just Beach Boys records either, and have a bull session talking music with each other. I'd pay to watch 12 hours of that to be honest.

[Zenobi]

The documentary does not just ignore too many things. It also practically states that whatever the Beach Boys did, after 1966, was a failure, and so the general public was right in ignoring them. This, in 2024, is unbelievably regressive, and frankly unforgivable.
I kept on topic this time.

'To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.' Jack Rieley (and I know one person here uses this as their quote). Sometimes it may not be the fault of the group themselves - they've had a mess of help to be in that situation.

Yes, they always had a mess of help. And not in a good way, sadly... An oasis of beauty surrounded by greed.

[HeyJude]

All of this reminds me that I need to see "Echo In The Canyon" again, as I'm remembering the scenes where the musicians are sitting around a coffee table with stacks of records talking about the music and some of those albums included Wild Honey, Pet Sounds, Smile, one of the H&V 45's, etc. And I thought that spirit of enjoying the music on the basic level of having a rap session and playing records with and for your friends is the organic part of it all that I wonder if fans are feeling from this new doc.  Echo In The Canyon also put the Beach Boys and their music at the forefront of music that should be appreciated and heard by a wider audience who may not have listened to, say, Wild Honey all that much, but who may have seen it on that coffee table and thought hey, I need to check this out. It also had a truly fantastic ending scene, which I will not spoil, but let's just say the Disney film could have done something similar and gone out on a joyous and bittersweet note, but instead Kokomo rolls over the end credits.

That doc had a certain spirit to it which is hard to codify, but you know it when you feel it.

I would have loved to see scenes where the surviving Beach Boys sit around a table stacked with records and a turntable, not just Beach Boys records either, and have a bull session talking music with each other. I'd pay to watch 12 hours of that to be honest.

Would be great to get a Beach Boys version of that "McCartney 3, 2, 1" thing that Rick Rubin did with McCartney. Although, I don't think Rubin did a particularly great job sort of "moderating" that thing. Would be cool to get like Boyd and Edelson at a mixing desk with Al, Mike, Bruce, and even David and Blondie for their stuff. And of course Brian if possible.

[MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm]

Would be great to get a Beach Boys version of that "McCartney 3, 2, 1" thing that Rick Rubin did with McCartney. Although, I don't think Rubin did a particularly great job sort of "moderating" that thing. Would be cool to get like Boyd and Edelson at a mixing desk with Al, Mike, Bruce, and even David and Blondie for their stuff. And of course Brian if possible.

That would be amazing. I'm a huge fan of The Band and they did something similar on the VH1 Classic Albums show in the 1990s... there was a segment with Levon Helm and producer John Simon in a studio walking through Rockin' Chair, one of my favorite Band tracks. The segment is just a few minutes long but has stayed with me for decades. You see Levon really feeling the music and remembering his late comrade Richard Manuel with great emotion, and the part where they break down Richard's vocals really changed the way I think about their music. Very easy to imagine a Beach Boys equivalent with the guys playing back/dissecting some of their classic 60s tracks and talking about what Carl and Dennis brought to the group.

[HeyJude]

Would be great to get a Beach Boys version of that "McCartney 3, 2, 1" thing that Rick Rubin did with McCartney. Although, I don't think Rubin did a particularly great job sort of "moderating" that thing. Would be cool to get like Boyd and Edelson at a mixing desk with Al, Mike, Bruce, and even David and Blondie for their stuff. And of course Brian if possible.

That would be amazing. I'm a huge fan of The Band and they did something similar on the VH1 Classic Albums show in the 1990s... there was a segment with Levon Helm and producer John Simon in a studio walking through Rockin' Chair, one of my favorite Band tracks. The segment is just a few minutes long but has stayed with me for decades. You see Levon really feeling the music and remembering his late comrade Richard Manuel with great emotion, and the part where they break down Richard's vocals really changed the way I think about their music. Very easy to imagine a Beach Boys equivalent with the guys playing back/dissecting some of their classic 60s tracks and talking about what Carl and Dennis brought to the group.

Alan Boyd shot some footage of Brian doing this for "Endless Harmony" in 1998; I'm curious how much of that exists.