The order of the stack

[The Cigarette Light Joke]

Forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum. I’ve never known whether it was more common for Al or Carl to be the second highest voice in the stack. Also can someone please furnish me with some examples of both instances? I’ve always been fascinated by this, and obviously the brilliant vocals reference thread on here only refers to lead and featured vocals. Thanks in advance!

[Robbie Mac]

There are exceptions, of course, but a lot of the time it was Al who was the note below Brian’s in the stack. Others who have listened to the relevant tapes can explain more, though.

[Awesoman]

The general order (but not always) from the original roster was Brian at the top, followed by Al, then Dennis, then Carl, and ending with Mike at the bottom.  I'm not sure where Bruce fit into that equation when he joined but he was probably near the top.

[The Cigarette Light Joke]

Thanks for the replies. Does anyone know if there’s already a thread on this topic? I always find myself picking out a specific harmony part and wondering who it is that I’m hearing in that magnificent stack.

[Awesoman]

Thanks for the replies. Does anyone know if there’s already a thread on this topic? I always find myself picking out a specific harmony part and wondering who it is that I’m hearing in that magnificent stack.

If you dig deep enough here you'll probably find some discussion about it but I don't really know specifically which direction to point you to.

Side note: props to having an amazingly clever screen name.  :-)

[All Summer Long]

I think I recall reading here that Brian had Carl and Dennis switch spots in the stack around 1964, but I’m not entirely positive. There has been a little discussion here, if I recall correctly. I believe (at the very least) that the “Sail On Sailor: 1972” box sessionography and the Pet Sounds sessionography on c-man’s website list vocal order in the stack (I’m not sure if that is also true of c-man’s sessionography for The Beach Boys Today).

[nts and the drum]

From my recollection the vocal stack was (during the first few albums until Al joined the stack) were Brian, Carl, Dennis and Mike. When Al rejoined, Al was stuck between Brian and Carl. Then once Bruce got into the band Brian would try to have Bruce do a part above the rest, and/or between Brian and Al.

Once we get into the 70s (and even starting with Friends actually) the arrangement in vocal lineup starts going all over the place. iirc the vocal lineup for All I Wanna Do was this weird lineup of Bruce, Al, Brian, Carl and Mike top to bottom (according to the Sail On podcast). Brian was starting to put Bruce and/or Al above him while Brian took a more comfortable range (not every case but a few cases).

It eventually got to the point that by CATP and Holland (aside from Funky Pretty) Brian would always not be the highest harmony, usually the second highest. Take for example the verses in Mess of Help. Al is shrieking on top there, followed by Carl, Brian and Mike. Matter of fact, Brian is actually adding additional “hey” parts with enthusiasm and even started trying to add improvised parts there (this can be heard clearly on the acapella track)

It wasn’t until 15BO that Brian was actively trying to be the top of the harmony stack, especially noticeable on Its OK where he’s doing a very breathy part above Al, who does a lower but much more shrill part.

Sorry if that was a ridiculously long one but yeah to answer the question, generally it’s either Bruce, Brian, Al, Carl, Dennis, Mike. (And Bruce and Brian switch, as do Al and Carl on occasion)

[wantsomecorn]

Where was Dave's spot in the vocal stack on the first few albums?

[The Cigarette Light Joke]

Where was Dave's spot in the vocal stack on the first few albums?

I believe Brian wasn’t keen on letting him sing in the records- I don’t think he’s singing on any of them, but I’m happy to be corrected.

Thanks all for your posts, that’s been very educational for me!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Honestly, I think it's pretty much impossible to generalize this.  The fact is that they switched around a whole lot.  They didn't all sing on everything; they swapped around, even from one take to another.  There are a few years where Brian and Mike are often the high and low voices, and of course it's pretty safe to put Mike lowest much of the time (not always).  But as time goes on and we are able to analyze these things better and better, it becomes apparent that there was no set order, and anything we thought we could rely on...we can't.  By 1965, every track is a blank slate, really.

[All Summer Long]

Where was Dave's spot in the vocal stack on the first few albums?

Where was Dave's spot in the vocal stack on the first few albums?

I believe Brian wasn’t keen on letting him sing in the records- I don’t think he’s singing on any of them, but I’m happy to be corrected.

From what I recall reading, David Marks remembers doubling Dennis' part, though I also remember reading that those with access to tapes (or really good ears at discerning harmony) have a hard time trying to find him in the stack on those albums.

[The Cigarette Light Joke]

Yeah it’s possible Dave is doubling Dennis at times - he he must have been singing those parts in the live band.

[The Cigarette Light Joke]

Honestly, I think it's pretty much impossible to generalize this.  The fact is that they switched around a whole lot.  They didn't all sing on everything; they swapped around, even from one take to another.  There are a few years where Brian and Mike are often the high and low voices, and of course it's pretty safe to put Mike lowest much of the time (not always).  But as time goes on and we are able to analyze these things better and better, it becomes apparent that there was no set order, and anything we thought we could rely on...we can't.  By 1965, every track is a blank slate, really.

Excellent point. I just wondered if they had a standard approach when it came to their strict four part numbers like Surfer Girl and the Freshmen covers. From what I’ve gathered so far it seems it was usually Brian, Carl, Dennis Mike up until Al rejoins, then Brian/Bruce, Al, Carl, Mike after that.

[B.E.]

Honestly, I think it's pretty much impossible to generalize this.  The fact is that they switched around a whole lot.  They didn't all sing on everything; they swapped around, even from one take to another.  There are a few years where Brian and Mike are often the high and low voices, and of course it's pretty safe to put Mike lowest much of the time (not always).  But as time goes on and we are able to analyze these things better and better, it becomes apparent that there was no set order, and anything we thought we could rely on...we can't.  By 1965, every track is a blank slate, really.

Excellent point. I just wondered if they had a standard approach when it came to their strict four part numbers like Surfer Girl and the Freshmen covers. From what I’ve gathered so far it seems it was usually Brian, Carl, Dennis Mike up until Al rejoins, then Brian/Bruce, Al, Carl, Mike after that.

I could be wrong about this, but I think during those early years Carl tended to sing the second lowest part, even before Al rejoined, with Dennis singing above him.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Ah yes, the human need to systematize.

[HeyJude]

One of the things I've always wanted to hear more of is an individual breakdown of BB (and other bands for that matter) harmony stacks. It's understandably tough to do with the original tapes, because they weren't often recording each voice on a separate track.

But I'd love to hear any number of songs in the way that Brian's social media posted that one-by-one overdub process on the unused "Don't Talk" backing vocals. Now, in that case, you don't hear each individual voice, but one voice, then two, then three, etc. But even that is fascinating to hear.

There are of course people on YouTube who do tutorials/re-recordings to break those harmonies down (where you do indeed find that the Carl Wilson/Al Jardine/George Harrison middle-ish harmony part in some stacks was sometimes the toughest part to sing).

But for all the harmony work the BBs did over so many years, there aren't like a ton of examples of them breaking down individual harmony parts. They sort of did it on that 1980 "20/20" profile with "Their Hearts Were Full of Spring." Then sometimes you get to accidentally hear isolated harmonies on concert tapes because a mic went out or it was mixed really wonky.

I'm curious how many BB multitracks have any substantive amount of individual vocal tracks isolated for stacked vocals. They'd obviously have more ability to do that as time went on into the 70s and 80s, but I don't know how often they were still at least grouping *some* singers together on one mic or one track on, say, 80s stuff.

Then there is the fascinating world of using AI to extract parts from recordings. It's of course much tougher to pull individual voices from a stack using that method as opposed to pulling all vocals or an instrument out. But some folks have made some progress. I've heard wonky but still demonstrative attempts to isolated individual voices on stuff like "Eleanor Rigby."

I wonder if it would be even more challenging to do this on some BB stuff since you have three brothers that could sound similar in some cases, not to mention Al who could often sound a lot like Brian.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

One of the things I've always wanted to hear more of is an individual breakdown of BB (and other bands for that matter) harmony stacks. It's understandably tough to do with the original tapes, because they weren't often recording each voice on a separate track.

It's difficult but generally not impossible.

I'm curious how many BB multitracks have any substantive amount of individual vocal tracks isolated for stacked vocals. They'd obviously have more ability to do that as time went on into the 70s and 80s, but I don't know how often they were still at least grouping *some* singers together on one mic or one track on, say, 80s stuff.

Then there is the fascinating world of using AI to extract parts from recordings. It's of course much tougher to pull individual voices from a stack using that method as opposed to pulling all vocals or an instrument out. But some folks have made some progress. I've heard wonky but still demonstrative attempts to isolated individual voices on stuff like "Eleanor Rigby."

I wonder if it would be even more challenging to do this on some BB stuff since you have three brothers that could sound similar in some cases, not to mention Al who could often sound a lot like Brian.

They never went totally away from recording group vocals to one track, but as early as 65 they started to augment those when they got 8 tracks.  So on California Girls, for example, you still have the big block of group vocal to one track, but you have Brian and Bruce adding their parts to the extra tracks.  They pretty much kept working this way forever, probably until 2012 when unlimited digital tracks ruined everything.

AI will eventually be able to snag artefact-minimal individual parts from group harmonies, and probably even tell you who it is, but that's a while off yet.

[HeyJude]

One of the things I've always wanted to hear more of is an individual breakdown of BB (and other bands for that matter) harmony stacks. It's understandably tough to do with the original tapes, because they weren't often recording each voice on a separate track.

It's difficult but generally not impossible.

I'm curious how many BB multitracks have any substantive amount of individual vocal tracks isolated for stacked vocals. They'd obviously have more ability to do that as time went on into the 70s and 80s, but I don't know how often they were still at least grouping *some* singers together on one mic or one track on, say, 80s stuff.

Then there is the fascinating world of using AI to extract parts from recordings. It's of course much tougher to pull individual voices from a stack using that method as opposed to pulling all vocals or an instrument out. But some folks have made some progress. I've heard wonky but still demonstrative attempts to isolated individual voices on stuff like "Eleanor Rigby."

I wonder if it would be even more challenging to do this on some BB stuff since you have three brothers that could sound similar in some cases, not to mention Al who could often sound a lot like Brian.

They never went totally away from recording group vocals to one track, but as early as 65 they started to augment those when they got 8 tracks.  So on California Girls, for example, you still have the big block of group vocal to one track, but you have Brian and Bruce adding their parts to the extra tracks.  They pretty much kept working this way forever, probably until 2012 when unlimited digital tracks ruined everything.

AI will eventually be able to snag artefact-minimal individual parts from group harmonies, and probably even tell you who it is, but that's a while off yet.

That would indeed be a legit good use of AI. I'll take that over "1964 Brian sings Crack at Your Love" any day.

I'm curious how their recording process evolved into the later years, especially when they weren't nearly as often in the studio in general. And, how much did tech impact that. For instance, they were using a Beta version of ProTools to record "Summer in Paradise" in 1991/1992, and my recollection is that that actually didn't have a ton of tracks to work with at that early stage. Was it only like 8 or 16? Flash foward 20 years later for TWGMTR, and they obviously had the tools to record in any permutation they wanted to. There is a bit of "studio" footage from those sessions, but I don't know how much of it is staged. Some shots show they singing ostensibly "group" vocals, all on individual mics. But then I recall a bit of legit footage of Brian and Mike (very wonkily) attempting backing vocals on "Spring Vacation", and the two of them are on one mic.

I suspect sometimes even in later years they've preferred a large group, or at least sub-groupings, around one mic for group vocals.

I suppose the best chance of being able to pull out a multi-track tape with many vocal parts and being able to isolate each part would be in the era where there were plenty of tracks to do so, and when one person was stacking all of the vocals. Meaning, a good hunk of Brian solo stuff perhaps? So, say, in like 1988, would Brian have wanted or needed to record, say, 6 harmony parts, but then downmix those to one track on whatever format he was using then? I think he was still tracking stuff on tape in that era, so he probably had, what, 48 tracks to work with maybe? Did they need room on those multitracks for all the DX7s and drum machines and stuff such that they couldn't devote like 8 tracks to vocals? And, would a producer/engineer ever mix multiple vocals down to one track not for logistical purposes, but rather because it compresses or otherwise makes the vocals sound more the way they want them to?

I know, a lot of minutia few care about!

And now that I think about it, in the era of autotune, I have to assume it's only easily usable in cases where each vocal can be isolated. So I'm guessing the TWGMTR album had most singers tracked individually. But I also don't know how much they were running *leads* through autotune versus backing vocals.

[The Cigarette Light Joke]

Well, TWGMTR is tuned to all buggary in both the leads and the backgrounds. It’s way too robotically perfect to be real. Side note: it makes me particularly sad when Al is clearly still singing like an angel on From Here To Back Again and yet Joe Thomas and team still felt it necessary to tune the life out of his performance. I’d love to hear the untuned version ❤️

[Wirestone]

Over the years, I’ve come to believe that nearly all the vocals on TWGMTR, except for a handful of featured spots, are Brian and Jeff Foskett. It’s how they got it done so quickly, and with minimum static from the other guys. Again, not doubting the presence of Mike and Al and Bruce, because they can all be heard clearly at various points, just that the overall stack on those tracks is 90% plus Brian and Jeff.

[Sam_BFC]

Probably Wirestone is right, but it would be fun to list out the obvious and less obvious spots where the other guys are present.

Thinkin Bout The Days and anything else not listed below
-Nothing comes to mind without listening

That's Why God Made the Radio
-Al response vocals "like a prayer"
-Mike descending coda line "that's why God made, that's why God made..."
-Bruce "for fallin in love" reminiscent of his California Girls outro part

Shelter
-Mike "do you ever still think of me?" in chorus

Bill and Sue
-Mike low part humbaddyahhddeaye in that bridge like section into the chorus outro
-Bruce high ooh-ooh-ooh part in chorus above the hummbaddy harmony?

From There to Back Again
-Mike outro part buh-deh-bah

Summer's Gone
-Mike background lines "yesterda-ay" etc