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Author Topic: The Wilson/Paley Sessions  (Read 23825 times)
kreen
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« Reply #125 on: September 02, 2022, 08:48:00 AM »

But, again about the WP sessions. I know why they were not released. It's too obvious!

"DON'T ****  WITH THE FORMULA, BRIAN!" This is not commercial, and will never climb the lists!

And no need to guess who said that. IT WAS A COLLECTIVE, as always.

Simplistic? Maybe, but often truth is simplistic.

Brian, Andy and maybe Don Was vs The Rest of the World.

But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?
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« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2022, 10:42:42 AM »

I mean, it's all what-ifs on top of what-ifs, but certainly I've never heard the Paley stuff discussed as if it was *only* a project intended to produce a Beach Boys album. Even Andy Paley, who spoke in interviews enthusiastically about how well the BBs performed (I recall his petsounds.com interview in particular singling out how good Al Jardine sounded), and who said the band could have cut vocals for an album's worth of material in two days, didn't seem to speak of the material as if a BB album was the only, or even the main, goal for doing the sessions.

He made it sound as though it was he and Brian doing material, with no specific but potentially *any* goal. I personally always felt it seemed like they were angling towards both a solo *and* BB album (and Joe Thomas attested that a few years later Brian would write or co-write stuff and put some stuff in a "solo" pile and some stuff in a "Beach Boys" pile, even during a time where a BB album seemed *even less* likely/possible).

As far as Brian's agency in doing projects, I think it's fair to say he needed a facilitator. to actually fully realize a project from writing/conception to release. Just about everything he did after about 1978, in terms of what actually got released, had some sort of co-writer and/or co-producer and/or some sort of facilitator.

He used Bruce on LA and KTSA. He did some sporadic sessions on his own into the early 80s pre-Landy Part 2, and I find that era and those sessions quite interesting, but they were never close to being a viable, releasable project.

By the mid-80s, he was usually working with someone. The Gary Usher book has a ton of insight into this, with some very frank (but also very sympathetic) discussions of what Brian was and wasn't capable of. Everybody who worked with Brian realized he needed someone to help him at various points to get product released. And I'm not just talking about needing a tape-op or engineer. He needed a co-producer (whether they were credited as such or not, and indeed the Usher book over and over gets into Landy's push and Brian's hands-off/ambivalence about Usher not getting a co-producer credit).

The '88 album brought a series of co-producers.

I suppose Brian sort of did "Sweet Insanity" on his own, and not totally coincidentally, it wasn't released. I'm not saying all of the material was bad, and certainly that was the peak of Landy making *everything* more complicated.

Brian had Andy and Don Was for the Paley sessions and the IJWMFTT project (the latter having Was cut most of the stuff without Brian, down to having someone sing guide vocals, and then Brian came in to add his leads). Van Dyke was obviously the main starter on the "Orange Crate Art" album (though I still feel a *ton* of the vocal arranging on that album is Brian, and Brian does an *amazing* job on that album, help or not).

That gets us to modern, "touring era" Brian, which can of course dredge up a lot of debates about Brian's ability and agency. But on most every project, whether by necessity or by choice (and I think it was either or both at various times), he had some sort of co-producer/co-writer/facilitator. Joe Thomas, Foskett, Darian, Mertens, Bennett, and so on.

Was Brian in the last decade or two capable of doing an album all on his own, from conception to release?  Even the "Brian alone at a piano playing new stuff" album some fans have wanted (an album full of "Message Man" type tracks for lack of a better way to describe it) would have required somebody to come up with and push for that idea.

Back specifically to the Paley material, I think Brian had enough agency in 1995 that he could have pushed hard to make that a new solo album. He didn't. And as puzzling as the Beach Boys' lack of enthusiasm for the material may be, it's not their fault that Brian and Andy didn't turn an album's worth of that stuff into a new Brian Wilson album. There was enough stuff written and recorded to even ignore an album's worth of stuff that he could have earmarked for a BB album.
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« Reply #127 on: September 02, 2022, 10:45:05 AM »

You make great points. Mainly I was just noting that as much people bemoan Joe Thomas -he is there because Brian chooses to not be totally in control of the recording process for a variety of reasons.

That's absolutely accurate. I'd go even farther when it comes to the 50th reunion; I'm not sure anyone else at that exact moment could have pulled together that project in that way. Even *Mike* was giving kudos *during the tour* to Joe Thomas and his ability to get the project done. What specifically soured concerning *Mike and Joe Thomas* after that point is not 100% clear.
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« Reply #128 on: September 02, 2022, 01:26:18 PM »

Quote
Have you read Cindy Lee Berryhill's account of the Beach Boys group session with Paley and Brian? That alone indicates a lot of more nuanced, weird, deep stuff was going on than simply someone thinking the material wasn't commercial. A lot of weird passive-aggressive stuff was going. And that was only on the more micro level when it came to actually literally working on the material. The larger political issues surrounding the organization were also at play. I've probably already gone on about a lot of that already in this thread.

Where can I find this?
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« Reply #129 on: September 02, 2022, 04:25:36 PM »

Quote
Have you read Cindy Lee Berryhill's account of the Beach Boys group session with Paley and Brian? That alone indicates a lot of more nuanced, weird, deep stuff was going on than simply someone thinking the material wasn't commercial. A lot of weird passive-aggressive stuff was going. And that was only on the more micro level when it came to actually literally working on the material. The larger political issues surrounding the organization were also at play. I've probably already gone on about a lot of that already in this thread.

Where can I find this?

I believe it was published in ESQ at or around the time of those sessions. 
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« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2022, 04:57:48 PM »

You know what? The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that they did Brian just like they did with Dennis and manson. Once that episode happened he was never treated  quite the same, and it's the same with Brian and landy*.


*Excluding the fluke 2012 reunion that almost seemed to defy any and all logic, of course.
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« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2022, 06:02:32 PM »

Brian was Landy’s victim, and unfortunately some people like to blame the victim rather than the perpetrator
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« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2022, 06:13:42 PM »

Brian was Landy’s victim, and unfortunately some people like to blame the victim rather than the perpetrator
Which is crazy, if you consider the fact that they basically created their own monster by getting land involved to begin with.
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« Reply #133 on: September 02, 2022, 08:15:07 PM »

I never understood why Don Was chose to work with Brian, and all they could get released was an album of remakes. The point of his film seemed to be that "Brian is a genius - a troubled genius, but his troubles are behind him and he's creating great music again". Did it boil down to, "new music has to be with the Beach Boys, or it's not going to happen?"

Hey, I see elsewhere that Al is re-releasing his solo album again. Might be a good idea to release TWGMTR again, too.
One little odd sidenote: by the time the Record Store Day EP came out in 2012 (the one that looked like a Pee Chee), Surfin' Safari/409/Isn't it Time, the reunion was pretty much over. That felt odd. Like we're still celebrating the reunion, even though both camps had returned to their respective corners.
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« Reply #134 on: September 02, 2022, 09:42:16 PM »

But, again about the WP sessions. I know why they were not released. It's too obvious!

"DON'T ****  WITH THE FORMULA, BRIAN!" This is not commercial, and will never climb the lists!

And no need to guess who said that. IT WAS A COLLECTIVE, as always.

Simplistic? Maybe, but often truth is simplistic.

Brian, Andy and maybe Don Was vs The Rest of the World.

But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?
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« Reply #135 on: September 02, 2022, 10:30:06 PM »

Double Tom Hardy this time.

https://youtu.be/ThJcHjCI9j4

https://youtu.be/ThJcHjCI9j4
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« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2022, 07:55:48 AM »

I have to clarify a thing about my insistence on "don't **** with the formula". I use it as a metaphor.
Yes, I know that if you analyse the reasons for the demise of the Paley Sessions, there are a lot. I am not so naive or uninformed as to believe there was only one reason, or a couple of them.
But in another sense, all those reasons coalesced into a giant metaphorical "don't **** with the formula, Brian". And he, in the end, complied. Again.
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« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2022, 08:02:44 AM »

I have to clarify a thing about my insistence on "don't **** with the formula". I use it as a metaphor.
Yes, I know that if you want to analyse the reasons for the demise of the Paley Sessions, there are a lot. I am not so naive or uninformed as to believe there was only reason, or a couple of them.
But in another sense, all those reasons coalesce into a giant metaphorical "don't **** with the formula, Brian".


I think any rational fan saw what you were saying. I'm glad Kreen wrote the "But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?" because it perfectly showcases the ignorance of a small swath of the fanbase that loves to needle anyone who has any sympathy/liking/preference for the Brian camp. Acting like a tool, not participating in any rational discourse when your opinion/post is countered shows exactly why there is such a divide among the fandom...fortunately I think most sane fans see how the petulant trolling isn't winning anyone over to that side.
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« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2022, 01:33:14 PM »

I have to clarify a thing about my insistence on "don't **** with the formula". I use it as a metaphor.
Yes, I know that if you want to analyse the reasons for the demise of the Paley Sessions, there are a lot. I am not so naive or uninformed as to believe there was only reason, or a couple of them.
But in another sense, all those reasons coalesce into a giant metaphorical "don't **** with the formula, Brian".


I think any rational fan saw what you were saying. I'm glad Kreen wrote the "But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?" because it perfectly showcases the ignorance of a small swath of the fanbase that loves to needle anyone who has any sympathy/liking/preference for the Brian camp. Acting like a tool, not participating in any rational discourse when your opinion/post is countered shows exactly why there is such a divide among the fandom...fortunately I think most sane fans see how the petulant trolling isn't winning anyone over to that side.

I think that the attitude a sadly non-negligible section of the BB "fandom" keeps regarding Brian is one of the most shameful examples of "ableism" ever. It's absurd, crazy, and it has gone on for too, far too long. Tom Hardy is the only answer they deserve. "That's bait."
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« Reply #139 on: September 03, 2022, 02:04:09 PM »

At one point, the loss of the Paley sessions seemed like a tragedy.

But then we got BWPS, TLOS, BWRG and TWGMTR. Brian working with his band, writing and arranging new and familiar tunes, and eventually singing far better than he ever had in his solo career. He gave us a late career miracle, of a kind I will never forget or underestimate.

The myth of the Paley sessions persists, and don’t get me wrong — I think everyone here would love a collection at some point. But so much else happened in the subsequent 27 years that I no longer see it as much of a tragedy. Would it have been nice? Sure. But did we still get a bunch of top quality new material from BW? Yes. Did we get great tours and shows? Yep. Did the vast majority of highlights from the sessions find their way out anyway? They sure did.
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« Reply #140 on: September 03, 2022, 02:36:46 PM »

I have to clarify a thing about my insistence on "don't **** with the formula". I use it as a metaphor.
Yes, I know that if you want to analyse the reasons for the demise of the Paley Sessions, there are a lot. I am not so naive or uninformed as to believe there was only reason, or a couple of them.
But in another sense, all those reasons coalesce into a giant metaphorical "don't **** with the formula, Brian".


I think any rational fan saw what you were saying. I'm glad Kreen wrote the "But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?" because it perfectly showcases the ignorance of a small swath of the fanbase that loves to needle anyone who has any sympathy/liking/preference for the Brian camp. Acting like a tool, not participating in any rational discourse when your opinion/post is countered shows exactly why there is such a divide among the fandom...fortunately I think most sane fans see how the petulant trolling isn't winning anyone over to that side.

I think that the attitude a sadly non-negligible section of the BB "fandom" keeps regarding Brian is one of the most shameful examples of "ableism" ever. It's absurd, crazy, and it has gone on for too, far too long. Tom Hardy is the only answer they deserve. "That's bait."

It goes beyond that; I think the mocking stems from the fact they for whatever reason don’t like Brian very much, the way some feel towards Mike, or the way I feel about Billie Eilish. These are the types of people who likely grew up as bullies and see Brian’s issues as a sign of weakness. I just roll my eyes and scroll , hoping a rule infringement would happen so the inane comments would stop. Til then, we’ll just keep playing the world’s lamest game of internet chicken.
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« Reply #141 on: September 03, 2022, 02:44:23 PM »

At one point, the loss of the Paley sessions seemed like a tragedy.

But then we got BWPS, TLOS, BWRG and TWGMTR. Brian working with his band, writing and arranging new and familiar tunes, and eventually singing far better than he ever had in his solo career. He gave us a late career miracle, of a kind I will never forget or underestimate.

The myth of the Paley sessions persists, and don’t get me wrong — I think everyone here would love a collection at some point. But so much else happened in the subsequent 27 years that I no longer see it as much of a tragedy. Would it have been nice? Sure. But did we still get a bunch of top quality new material from BW? Yes. Did we get great tours and shows? Yep. Did the vast majority of highlights from the sessions find their way out anyway? They sure did.

I think the fact that we got Imagination instead caused it to get elevated more in the 1999-2002 timeframe when it looked like that was all we were gonna get studio album-wise. But, Brian outdid it several times after, esp on the Gershwin album which has my favorite vocals he’s ever done . His voice may have been better in his youth, but he sang his ass off.

But I digress
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« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2022, 02:59:43 PM »

The only person who sees abandoning Wilson/Paley as a tragedy these days is a guy like Dom Priore.

Even so, Don’s friends still managed to get involved with and are still involved with Brian.  The Gen X-ers who were the hip Brian audience in the 90’s did not abandon him after Imagination, not matter how much Dom says or wishes that it had happened.
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« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2022, 05:01:00 PM »

At one point, the loss of the Paley sessions seemed like a tragedy.

But then we got BWPS, TLOS, BWRG and TWGMTR. Brian working with his band, writing and arranging new and familiar tunes, and eventually singing far better than he ever had in his solo career. He gave us a late career miracle, of a kind I will never forget or underestimate.

The myth of the Paley sessions persists, and don’t get me wrong — I think everyone here would love a collection at some point. But so much else happened in the subsequent 27 years that I no longer see it as much of a tragedy. Would it have been nice? Sure. But did we still get a bunch of top quality new material from BW? Yes. Did we get great tours and shows? Yep. Did the vast majority of highlights from the sessions find their way out anyway? They sure did.

Very wise words, Wirestone. I myself don't consider the "loss" of the Paley sessions a tragedy. More just like a missed opportunity.
I'll try to use this as a springboard to say what I think of Brian's overall output (wow...).
On one hand, there is some sadness. There is no way to know what a Brian working on full cylinders for dozens of years could have done, starting from a completed 1967 SMiLE. The idea boggles my mind.
On the other hand, things could have gone SO worse, and we were SO lucky. Brian, thru all his enormous problems, managed to give us Smiley Smile, great songs in all the further albums, Mt. Vernon, Love You, Rio Grande, and as you said BWPS, TLOS, BWRG, TWGMTR, and I'll throw in these two unexpected recent gems, At My Piano (Brian alone at a piano! And being awesome at it!) and Long Promised Road (after which, I consider the promise of the R & R album fulfilled). And by the way, Brian's one is my fav Christmas album.
So, yes, his late career is really a miracle. And, of course, he got a mess of help from a lot of great people...
Let's say that we could have had something unimaginable, but we "just" had a modern Mozart...and a couple of psychedelic barbershop ensembles. Smiley
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« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2022, 05:36:18 PM »

At one point, the loss of the Paley sessions seemed like a tragedy.

But then we got BWPS, TLOS, BWRG and TWGMTR. Brian working with his band, writing and arranging new and familiar tunes, and eventually singing far better than he ever had in his solo career. He gave us a late career miracle, of a kind I will never forget or underestimate.

The myth of the Paley sessions persists, and don’t get me wrong — I think everyone here would love a collection at some point. But so much else happened in the subsequent 27 years that I no longer see it as much of a tragedy. Would it have been nice? Sure. But did we still get a bunch of top quality new material from BW? Yes. Did we get great tours and shows? Yep. Did the vast majority of highlights from the sessions find their way out anyway? They sure did.


I think the fact that we got Imagination instead caused it to get elevated more in the 1999-2002 timeframe when it looked like that was all we were gonna get studio album-wise. But, Brian outdid it several times after, esp on the Gershwin album which has my favorite vocals he’s ever done . His voice may have been better in his youth, but he sang his ass off.

But I digress

I agree, Brian's vocals in BWRG are great. I like particularly his phrasing.
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« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2022, 08:14:58 PM »

I have to clarify a thing about my insistence on "don't **** with the formula". I use it as a metaphor.
Yes, I know that if you want to analyse the reasons for the demise of the Paley Sessions, there are a lot. I am not so naive or uninformed as to believe there was only reason, or a couple of them.
But in another sense, all those reasons coalesce into a giant metaphorical "don't **** with the formula, Brian".


I think any rational fan saw what you were saying. I'm glad Kreen wrote the "But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?" because it perfectly showcases the ignorance of a small swath of the fanbase that loves to needle anyone who has any sympathy/liking/preference for the Brian camp. Acting like a tool, not participating in any rational discourse when your opinion/post is countered shows exactly why there is such a divide among the fandom...fortunately I think most sane fans see how the petulant trolling isn't winning anyone over to that side.

I think that the attitude a sadly non-negligible section of the BB "fandom" keeps regarding Brian is one of the most shameful examples of "ableism" ever. It's absurd, crazy, and it has gone on for too, far too long. Tom Hardy is the only answer they deserve. "That's bait."

It goes beyond that; I think the mocking stems from the fact they for whatever reason don’t like Brian very much, the way some feel towards Mike, or the way I feel about Billie Eilish. These are the types of people who likely grew up as bullies and see Brian’s issues as a sign of weakness. I just roll my eyes and scroll , hoping a rule infringement would happen so the inane comments would stop. Til then, we’ll just keep playing the world’s lamest game of internet chicken.
There are people who don't like Brian very much? I thought everybody loved Brian. He's a very lovable guy. Someone you just want to give a big bear hug and tell him it's gonna be alright.
I think the Wilson Paley sessions are held in such high regard is - in some quarters - they are perceived as being Brian doing what Brian wanted to do, compared with IJWMFTT (Don Was does a film about Brian and wants him to re-record some songs to be used in the film); OCA - Brian singing on VDP's album because - in VDP's words "I can't stand the sound of my own voice"); Imagination - Brian being pushed into an AC sound by Melinda and Joe Thomas; and on and on. There always has to be someone else pushing Brian to do something, instead of Brian just doing what he wants to do.
But Brian in 2022 is a much different story than Brian in 1990-whatever.
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« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2022, 07:51:20 AM »

I think as you say that the Paley sessions loomed large for many years because a certain part of the fandom continued to argue that things like Imagination were Brian being pushed into a more commercial/bland direction and that the “real” Brian was represented on the more “raw” Paley demos. The suggestion is that Brian was pushed into collaboration with people like Joe by “outside forces” and that he would make more experimental music left to his own devices. But I just think that is wishful thinking and not where Brian head has been at since 1988
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« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2022, 08:18:27 AM »

I think as you say that the Paley sessions loomed large for many years because a certain part of the fandom continued to argue that things like Imagination were Brian being pushed into a more commercial/bland direction and that the “real” Brian was represented on the more “raw” Paley demos. The suggestion is that Brian was pushed into collaboration with people like Joe by “outside forces” and that he would make more experimental music left to his own devices. But I just think that is wishful thinking and not where Brian head has been at since 1988

1) It isn't just wishful thinking. As the Paley sessions showed, he just needed a nudge in that direction, which Andy had supplied. Instead, Brian got quite a few, let's say, "nudges" in the opposite direction.
2) About 2022 Brian: I hope everybody agrees that he is not in the best place. But ableist trolls (not talking of Ian here) don't know either love or mercy. What I know is that the 2021 Brian actually completed two albums.
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« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2022, 10:50:17 AM »

I have to clarify a thing about my insistence on "don't **** with the formula". I use it as a metaphor.
Yes, I know that if you want to analyse the reasons for the demise of the Paley Sessions, there are a lot. I am not so naive or uninformed as to believe there was only reason, or a couple of them.
But in another sense, all those reasons coalesce into a giant metaphorical "don't **** with the formula, Brian".


I think any rational fan saw what you were saying. I'm glad Kreen wrote the "But I thought nobody tells Brian Wilson what to do?" because it perfectly showcases the ignorance of a small swath of the fanbase that loves to needle anyone who has any sympathy/liking/preference for the Brian camp. Acting like a tool, not participating in any rational discourse when your opinion/post is countered shows exactly why there is such a divide among the fandom...fortunately I think most sane fans see how the petulant trolling isn't winning anyone over to that side.

I think that the attitude a sadly non-negligible section of the BB "fandom" keeps regarding Brian is one of the most shameful examples of "ableism" ever. It's absurd, crazy, and it has gone on for too, far too long. Tom Hardy is the only answer they deserve. "That's bait."

It goes beyond that; I think the mocking stems from the fact they for whatever reason don’t like Brian very much, the way some feel towards Mike, or the way I feel about Billie Eilish. These are the types of people who likely grew up as bullies and see Brian’s issues as a sign of weakness. I just roll my eyes and scroll , hoping a rule infringement would happen so the inane comments would stop. Til then, we’ll just keep playing the world’s lamest game of internet chicken.
There are people who don't like Brian very much? I thought everybody loved Brian. He's a very lovable guy. Someone you just want to give a big bear hug and tell him it's gonna be alright.
I think the Wilson Paley sessions are held in such high regard is - in some quarters - they are perceived as being Brian doing what Brian wanted to do, compared with IJWMFTT (Don Was does a film about Brian and wants him to re-record some songs to be used in the film); OCA - Brian singing on VDP's album because - in VDP's words "I can't stand the sound of my own voice"); Imagination - Brian being pushed into an AC sound by Melinda and Joe Thomas; and on and on. There always has to be someone else pushing Brian to do something, instead of Brian just doing what he wants to do.
But Brian in 2022 is a much different story than Brian in 1990-whatever.

I think it's more that people don't like Brian's camp, not necessarily Brian. And I think a lot of the animosity stems from the years that Mike received backlash for this or that, and so any opportunity that arises to needle/prod Brian fans does not go to waste (as Kreen's comment above perfectly exemplifies)....and I think this because I notice that most of this animosity comes from people who defend Mike's camp incessantly.

And those of us who do sympathize/support Brian's camp are the targets of this animosity. So yeah, everyone seems to love Brian, but that doesn't stop some fans from disrespecting his wife, disrespecting his children, disrespecting his band, disrespecting his own stated intentions.

So while some people claim to love Brian, they sure don't show evidence of this when they make flippant/sarcastic comments regarding his free will, or regarding the motivations behind certain albums. The people who have this constant hate towards anything associated with Brian's management seem to forget that Brian's world is not black and white. Brian is a very complicated/complex person so expecting his life and his career to be uncomplicated is astoundingly ignorant. And I'm not saying we can't discuss this stuff - I do not think for a second that Brian's career post-Landy has been all sunshine and rainbows (so there is much to discuss), but these smartass sarcastic pot-shot comments that pepper these discussions aren't adding anything remotely constructive to the conversation.   
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God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!

"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.

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« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2022, 01:35:06 PM »

At one point, the loss of the Paley sessions seemed like a tragedy.

But then we got BWPS, TLOS, BWRG and TWGMTR. Brian working with his band, writing and arranging new and familiar tunes, and eventually singing far better than he ever had in his solo career. He gave us a late career miracle, of a kind I will never forget or underestimate.

The myth of the Paley sessions persists, and don’t get me wrong — I think everyone here would love a collection at some point. But so much else happened in the subsequent 27 years that I no longer see it as much of a tragedy. Would it have been nice? Sure. But did we still get a bunch of top quality new material from BW? Yes. Did we get great tours and shows? Yep. Did the vast majority of highlights from the sessions find their way out anyway? They sure did.
I think the reason the Paley sessions are thought of as such a tragedy is because It is in a way, for The Beach Boys. These songs were intended for a Beach Boys album specifically. Brian bounced back and had moments of brilliance, but not The Beach Boys as a group. Instead of what could have been their best work since Holland, everything was scrapped for a half assed "tribute album". Then Carl got sick and died, and the group more or less fizzled out. The time between the buzz generated from the 1993 Good Vibrations box set and the IJWMFTT documentary gave them a valuable window of time/opportunity, but it all went to waste over petty politics that should have been dealt with years ago. Instead a once great band slipped away doing mediocre greatest hits shows. The worst part about all this is that this was their last chance with Carl(of course they didn't know it at the time). Therein lies the real tragedy.
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