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Author Topic: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss  (Read 23716 times)
BJL
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« Reply #400 on: July 26, 2022, 10:53:45 AM »

edit: I'm deleting what I posted here because it wasn't about the music. Sorry if anybody had invested time in responding to it. I don't think there was anything uncalled for or mean in it, but I love this conversation and I really like Liz *and* Sloopjohnb72 and think everyone is saying interesting and valuable things and there's no reason for me to have made a long post that wasn't about the music! Thanks everyone for making this thread so cool!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 11:28:24 AM by BJL » Logged
Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #401 on: July 26, 2022, 11:09:27 AM »



This portion in the reply gets toward the core of what folks were reporting as early as Paul Williams' interview with David Anderle, where such switching around of parts was discussed as part of the project becoming stuck in its own gears, so to speak. But, having made those changes in an attempt to create a more "grandiose" version of H&V, and then leaving that by the roadside as well, we are really at the point where Brian could have conceivably gone back after he'd decided exactly what *was* going to be the released version of H&V (the single version that wound up on SMILEY) and restored the portions of the other songs that wound up being unused.

Which leads to the question of how and why "Cabinessence" was released, and how it was (apparently) found in an intact version using the sequence that was strung together earlier in December 1966. The "how" I think that the mega-scholars of SMiLE can easily cover, but the "why" is something that leads back into the area of inquiry that you folks really seem loath to discuss here. The fact that Brian felt happier (for a time) while he was putting SMILEY together is hardly surprising: given the intractable intensity he'd been dealing with during the previous month, a condition that had literally brought his prodigious work process to a halt, a resolution to the creative and interpersonal impasse that had been plaguing him must have been greeted with a sense of (creative) euphoria. (There are, however, audible examples of some "pain and strain" in the process, as manifested in the UM bootleg disk for SMILEY; as much of a sense of relief at having a way out of the earlier impasse might have propelled the project, it still had to be gotten through, and underlying it had to be a sense that the band wasn't going to escape from critical and commercial backlash once the LP was released.)

But the problem was that it didn't last but another nine months, and in the real world the LPs that came out as a result of this temporary rejuvenation did not re-establish the Beach Boys as a top-of-the-line commercial entity (no matter how much we may love them now). And that clearly came back into the picture in mid-1968, when it appears that Brian hits another, different kind of creative wall--more akin to "writer's block" than "too many options". All of which eventually leads back to the question: why was "Cabinessence" (in its original configuration) revisited by Carl and Dennis and prepared for release on 20/20? What triggered the decision to do that? Was it some kind of end play by the band to ensure that the SMiLE material would not be something that Brian could revisit? Did they think that those two tracks would sell more records if they were included? (Not remembering any type of publicity campaign by Capitol trumpeting the presence of "lost SMiLE tracks"--that would take another two years to occur, when the band's commercial situation in America was even more problematic than was the case in the fall of '68.)

Was there some kind of internal tug-of-war that played out regarding what Brian could/could not do? The Redwood incident may only be the most visible manifestation of such a process that unfolded over that period. What we go from is a memo from Engemann where Brian seems on board with a 10-track version of SMiLE to be issued on Brother Records which can still use the booklet, to a situation where two tracks from SMiLE end up on a subsequent LP two years later that is back on Capitol. While these matters may not be as alluring to those who want to focus on the musical puzzles, they are fallout results from a series of after-events stemming from the music that (arguably, at least) need just as much attention from researchers.

Do you not think that the Redwood incident may be the actual moment that Brian knew he was not going to be able to bring out Smile with the band, with someone else or on his own?

The review for Rolling Stone didn't even mention Smile only Smiley Smile. "“Cabinessence,” the last cut on the second side, is one of the finest things Brian has ever done, a product of the Smiley Smile collaboration with Parks, whose extraordinary gift it is to make a cliche grow into a world: “Lost and found you still remain there/I’ll nind a meadow filled with reindeer [ Cheesy] —/I’ll build you a home on the range.” The totally orchestrated cacophony was an innovation in rock when they used it in Smiley Smile, and is still done here better than anywhere else. Piano imitates ukelele, and the solo vocal is gentle, but brilliant.

So clearly they didn't do much in the way of promotion of 20/20 or else didn't want them to know about Cabinessence being on Smile.  I can remember Brian emphasising with some force  in an interview, but can't remember where, that Cabinessence was from Smile.  Clearly it was significant to him.  I think a lot of the album was over shadowed by Manson.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 11:11:18 AM by Galaxy Liz » Logged
Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #402 on: July 26, 2022, 11:39:44 AM »

edit: I'm deleting what I posted here because it wasn't about the music. Sorry if anybody had invested time in responding to it. I don't think there was anything uncalled for or mean in it, but I love this conversation and I really like Liz *and* Sloopjohnb72 and think everyone is saying interesting and valuable things and there's no reason for me to have made a long post that wasn't about the music! Thanks everyone for making this thread so cool!

I thank you BJL changing your post, it was very kind and appreciated - in line with you I will now modify my own post.

I can understand from your point of view the importance of documentary evidence but I also understand the power of history passed down by word of mouth - how many times now have verbal histories been proven to be more accurate?  How long can paper last and how vulnerable is it to flood, fire and error?  I think it has a place but to over estimate it is dangerous especially in a creative situation where someone’s creative plan is contained in their head and in constant flux it is impossible to know the truth.

I do care about all of Smile but LTSDD was shelved on 19th May 1967 but was merged with CCW in October 67 (it's on the Smile Sessions boxed set) - could this be a co-incidence or a plan.  The words mean water in Hawaiian but yet we dismiss it out of hand that it could be LTSDD when we don’t know.  It’s not a crime to say we don’t know.  This isn’t science, the answer is not ‘no’ until it is proven, the answer is ‘we don’t know’.  It is water is a theory.  It is associated with babies is a theory and it is both is a theory (and the last one is one I believe).

I do appreciate all the information that has been provided and the wealth of knowledge is impressive.  We shouldn't get so fixed on a position but it just shows our passion about the subject.  I do try to be open minded and never dismiss something out of hand without looking into it first but where something is said against Brian or his project I'm afraid being objective goes out of the window.  He isn't perfect but he's suffered enough and been gaslighted for years for producing an amazing piece of art which was under appreciated at the time.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 12:55:42 AM by Galaxy Liz » Logged
Angela Jones
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« Reply #403 on: July 26, 2022, 12:18:22 PM »

Re LTSDD, there is factual evidence that there may be a water connection. The chant. Those words have a dictionary definition and the dictionary definition for 'wai' which is what The SMiLE Sessions lyrics claims it is, is 'water'. That doesn't disprove it has connections to the childhood theme though.

I'm focusing on this tiny part of the puzzle because SMiLE is so huge. Jigsaws are easier to do piece by piece. The modular form of SMiLE, which has been compared to a mosaic, suits this kind of attention to detail IMO, though the theory of a friend of mine that it's a fractal thing in which each piece contains the whole, like a musical Mandelbrot Set, is quite appealing to me, though I can't prove it.
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BJL
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« Reply #404 on: July 26, 2022, 12:25:12 PM »

This isn’t science, the answer is not ‘no’ until it is proven, the answer is ‘we don’t know’.

That is sure true and something we all have to remember!

And my questions about Love to Say Da Da should probably have been broken out into their own thread, which I would do now except I think we've settled it Smiley
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HeyJude
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« Reply #405 on: July 26, 2022, 12:26:42 PM »

There's a point at which, if we're applying potential labels or theories to a work that we can be reasonably sure Brian *wasn't* aware of (e.g. if we're using verbiage he wouldn't have even been familiar with), then we're looking at something that, if it's being done, is being done so *unintentionally* and *unknowingly*.

Because we're so often focused on Brian's supposed "intent", then I can't weigh heavily terms and theories of which I strongly suspect (though we can usually never prove) Brian wouldn't have been familiar with.

Applying theories about what we think the project ends up being, or could have been, can be fun. But that's a separate fork of the discussion than what his possible intent was.

Like many of his contemporaries (e.g. Lennon and McCartney), when they did mind-bending, unique things, it was *in* them. They often didn't know they were doing it. Or they were partially aware, and/or had a lot of musical intuition about what they were doing. This isn't to take away from those accomplishments. If anything, I think it adds to the mystique and wonder.

I'm not taking away Brian's agency as a composer/arranger/producer/performer. And I don't think he just barfed stuff out with no planning or awareness. His inability to finish the stuff had far more to do with *making* decisions than like understanding what he was doing, etc.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 12:37:19 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #406 on: July 26, 2022, 06:47:46 PM »


Do you not think that the Redwood incident may be the actual moment that Brian knew he was not going to be able to bring out Smile with the band, with someone else or on his own?

The review for Rolling Stone didn't even mention Smile only Smiley Smile. [“Cabinessence,” the last cut on the second side, is one of the finest things Brian has ever done, a product of the Smiley Smile collaboration with Parks, whose extraordinary gift it is to make a cliche grow into a world: “Lost and found you still remain there/I’ll find a meadow filled with reindeer [ Cheesy] —/I’ll build you a home on the range.” The totally orchestrated cacophony was an innovation in rock when they used it in Smiley Smile, and is still done here better than anywhere else. Piano imitates ukelele, and the solo vocal is gentle, but brilliant.]

So clearly they didn't do much in the way of promotion of 20/20 or else didn't want them to know about Cabinessence being on Smile.  I can remember Brian emphasising with some force  in an interview, but can't remember where, that Cabinessence was from Smile.  Clearly it was significant to him.  I think a lot of the album was over shadowed by Manson.

The Tate-LaBianca murders happened in August of '69; 20/20 was released in February. So no shadow of Manson, except as shadow writer on the one track, which wasn't common knowledge when the LP was released. My guess is that the lack of promotion came from the continuing deterioration of the relationship between the band and Capitol.

But none of that gets us anywhere near the question of why the band felt they needed to put two cuts from SMiLE on the record. Let's also recall that "Cabinessence" was one of the tracks where VDP's lyrics had sent Mike into an "acid alliteration" tizzy.

Engemann memo was in late July '67; Redwood incident was mid-October. Outside production jobs and remaining SMiLE tracks don't naturally fall in the same category, so Brian may not have made that connection. And we don't know how committed Brian really was to actually creating an "10-track SMiLE LP." At any rate, it never appears, and WILD HONEY is released on Capitol, not Brother, that December.

But Brian works his a** off on WILD HONEY and FRIENDS, though with the latter LP he finds ways to indulge in some unorthodox tracks that were vulnerable to being pointed to as a big part of the reason that FRIENDS tanked commercially. Then in November '68, the two SMiLE tracks are sweetened/completed. One speculative explanation was that the band didn't have enough tracks to fill out the LP, but we know now that there were a lot of other tracks in vaults at the time that were passed over to specifically put those two songs on 20/20.
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Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #407 on: July 27, 2022, 01:25:35 AM »


Do you not think that the Redwood incident may be the actual moment that Brian knew he was not going to be able to bring out Smile with the band, with someone else or on his own?

The review for Rolling Stone didn't even mention Smile only Smiley Smile. [“Cabinessence,” the last cut on the second side, is one of the finest things Brian has ever done, a product of the Smiley Smile collaboration with Parks, whose extraordinary gift it is to make a cliche grow into a world: “Lost and found you still remain there/I’ll find a meadow filled with reindeer [ Cheesy] —/I’ll build you a home on the range.” The totally orchestrated cacophony was an innovation in rock when they used it in Smiley Smile, and is still done here better than anywhere else. Piano imitates ukelele, and the solo vocal is gentle, but brilliant.]

So clearly they didn't do much in the way of promotion of 20/20 or else didn't want them to know about Cabinessence being on Smile.  I can remember Brian emphasising with some force  in an interview, but can't remember where, that Cabinessence was from Smile.  Clearly it was significant to him.  I think a lot of the album was over shadowed by Manson.

The Tate-LaBianca murders happened in August of '69; 20/20 was released in February. So no shadow of Manson, except as shadow writer on the one track, which wasn't common knowledge when the LP was released. My guess is that the lack of promotion came from the continuing deterioration of the relationship between the band and Capitol.

But none of that gets us anywhere near the question of why the band felt they needed to put two cuts from SMiLE on the record. Let's also recall that "Cabinessence" was one of the tracks where VDP's lyrics had sent Mike into an "acid alliteration" tizzy.

Engemann memo was in late July '67; Redwood incident was mid-October. Outside production jobs and remaining SMiLE tracks don't naturally fall in the same category, so Brian may not have made that connection. And we don't know how committed Brian really was to actually creating an "10-track SMiLE LP." At any rate, it never appears, and WILD HONEY is released on Capitol, not Brother, that December.

But Brian works his a** off on WILD HONEY and FRIENDS, though with the latter LP he finds ways to indulge in some unorthodox tracks that were vulnerable to being pointed to as a big part of the reason that FRIENDS tanked commercially. Then in November '68, the two SMiLE tracks are sweetened/completed. One speculative explanation was that the band didn't have enough tracks to fill out the LP, but we know now that there were a lot of other tracks in vaults at the time that were passed over to specifically put those two songs on 20/20.

Sorry, I said that it was overshadowed by Manson because when I went back to look at the reviews it was all over them and I hadn’t processed the timeline but obviously they must have been written later and unfortunately my huge collection of articles only began in earnest in 1970 and I only have a few articles from 69.  Yes, you are right it is probably the relationship with the press.

I can’t think of any other reason why they would use it specifically unless Brian was behind the release and was being passive aggressive, wanted it to receive huge critical acclaim which would be satisfying especially after Mike’s criticism.

Smiley came out in September - too early for another album to be released yet.  On the Smile Sessions it shows that the last work Brian did on Smile was in October 67.  Then there was the Redwood incident in October - I’m not sure of the exact date.  It may be a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc but the dates make it look reasonable.
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Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #408 on: July 27, 2022, 01:50:17 AM »

Incidentally in relation to Vega-tables and the Elements - Frank Holmes included his illustration for it in The Elements.

Whilst looking for confirmation of  Vega-tables/Elements I found this on another board.  Whilst not wishing to be contentious it does show the movement of LTSDD from life cycle to water.  Though my preference is still to believe it is both.  It also says Brian moved into Belligio Road in March but the source could be Brian's own statement.  All I can find is that the studio was finished in June which must have taken some time.  If the Minion of Satan is now posting here I both apologise for pinching your post without permission and thank you for the information.

----------------------

"I Love To Say Dada"
A very curious SMiLE track with a long history and several transformations, it was also the final piece recorded for SMiLE before the album was abandoned. Originally conceived as a song about a baby in March 1967, Wilson continued to work on the song and it evolved into the single "Cool Cool Water" from 1970's Sunflower. Although not a hit, the song became cherished by Beach Boys fans as a highlight of their 1970s work. It was eventually received new lyrics in 2003 and resulted as "In Blue Hawaii" on Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE.

Early Versions - All Day
The first recorded versions of "Dada" were a series of untitled piano experiments recorded December 22nd, 1966, the same session that Brian tracked rough vocals to "Heroes and Villains". The first takes featured Brian playing the piano with taped strings, with a second attempt on a Fender Rhodes with overdubbed prepared piano. No master number was assigned to these, so it's unknown the purpose or for what song these recordings were meant for.

Next, an embryonic version of the song emerged during the "Heroes and Villains" sessions as a segment called All Day, recorded January 27th, 1967. Nothing was done with this, and it was obvious Brian was struggling to fit the various segments and modulations together cohesively.

May Versions - I Love To Say Dada
By the time Brian had moved into his new mansion on Bellagio Road in March, Brian must have cemented the All Day musical ideas into "Love to Say Dada", a song apparently about a baby. Brian begun tracking the song formally on May 16th with Part 1, a rollicking piano-driven intro with a marching percussion. The next day, Brian recorded Part 2, the main modulating verse section, this arrangement featuring a grand piano with plucked electric guitars and a clarinet. Mike Love apparently overdubbed a simple "wow wow who wow" vocal onto this Part 2, possibly at this session.

Unsatisfied with the Part 2's arrangement, Brian went back to the studio the following day on the 18th and retracked it, this time featuring a prepared piano, piccolos and whistles. This version was called Second Day, as it was called on the session tapes, which would probably denotes that it was the second day Part 2 was recorded. This whimsical Second Day version was never heard, as well as the rest of "I Love to Say Dada"'s sections, as it was the final recording before SMiLE was shelved. Interestingly enough, Brian never gave up on this musical idea...

Smiley Smile/Wild Honey Versions - Cool Cool Water
By the time Brian had recycled SMiLE into Smiley Smile, he had also apparently recycled "I Love To Say Dada" into "Cool Cool Water", as the first incarnation of it was recorded as two versions on June 6th, 1967, curiously at Western Studios instead of Brian's home studio. The song was left off of Smiley Smile but attempted again later that year during the Wild Honey sessions. Recording a much more elaborate version on October 26th and 29th, along with a "Cool Cool Water Chant" over an organ drone", the song again did not make the cut onto Wild Honey.

Warner Bros exec Lenny Waronker heard the unreleased Wild Honey outtake of "Cool Cool Water" and asked The Beach Boys to finish the song off as a single for their album Sunflower. Using the recordings from October 1967 as well as new sections recorded July 1970, the song was finally completed three years later, concluding that album, although it wasn't a hit as anticipated.

Modern Versions - In Blue Hawaii
The original SMiLE recordings of "Dada" were finally heard in 1993 on the Good Vibrations box set, mixed and compiled by Mark Linett. The track was eventually re-written into "In Blue Hawaii" on Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE in 2003, featuring new lyrics by Van Dyke Parks. Finally, as it was presented on The Smile Sessions in 2011, Mark Linett used the original "I Love to Say Dada" backing track with flown-in vocal overdubs from the Wild Honey outtake version of "Cool Cool Water".
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WillJC
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« Reply #409 on: July 27, 2022, 02:03:11 AM »

I don't think there's much mystery behind the use of Smile tracks on 20/20. And although Brian consented, he was reluctant about their inclusion and hands-off with it.

Not speculative, Dennis went on record saying that they had to go back and find things Brian had left behind because he'd stopped actively participating. The sessions for 20/20 began with a Brian-led run of sessions for almost an a full album of songs in the summer, but most of those weren't completed, and activity drifted for months between touring until the group were facing an imminent delivery deadline. In September a lengthy list of potential songs for the album was drawn up (probably by Carl and Dennis) with notes on their status - some recorded that needed work, some originals that hadn't yet been taken into the studio, some ideas for covers, and some older tracks from the vault - with almost all of Brian's tracks from the May-July '68 sessions given a look, along with Iron Horse, Surf's Up, and Cool Water.

It was probably easier, and more comfortable at this point, for the rest of the band to record newer material rather than finish off Brian's recent work on his behalf when he didn't want to go back to it, which is where I Can Hear Music, Bluebirds and most of the Dennis songs enter the picture. But the Smile tracks were a looming exception that they knew the value of and had wanted to finish, with Brian alluding to some group argument that year over his refusal to use the material while he was still taking a more active leadership role. Prayer was already effectively done and only sweetened while Cabin Essence was close enough that Carl could add the finishing touches without stepping on Brian's toes. Considering they were in the last week of a tight deadline and looking for some strong Brian contributions that could be completed without too much work, those were obvious candidates.

Other parts of Smile were still in the air in '68. David Anderle got wind that Child is Father of the Man would be on Brian's next album, which ended up happening via Little Bird. My Only Sunshine and the original version of Wonderful were reviewed with Stack-O-Tracks material in January. Workshop, Our Prayer and Cabin Essence were used on 20/20, while the original Wind Chimes was also given a safety copy and Surf's Up was evidently still hanging in the background.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 02:05:52 AM by WillJC » Logged
Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #410 on: July 27, 2022, 02:42:58 AM »

I don't think there's much mystery behind the use of Smile tracks on 20/20. And although Brian consented, he was reluctant about their inclusion and hands-off with it.

Not speculative, Dennis went on record saying that they had to go back and find things Brian had left behind because he'd stopped actively participating. The sessions for 20/20 began with a Brian-led run of sessions for almost an a full album of songs in the summer, but most of those weren't completed, and activity drifted for months between touring until the group were facing an imminent delivery deadline. In September a lengthy list of potential songs for the album was drawn up (probably by Carl and Dennis) with notes on their status - some recorded that needed work, some originals that hadn't yet been taken into the studio, some ideas for covers, and some older tracks from the vault - with almost all of Brian's tracks from the May-July '68 sessions given a look, along with Iron Horse, Surf's Up, and Cool Water.

It was probably easier, and more comfortable at this point, for the rest of the band to record newer material rather than finish off Brian's recent work on his behalf when he didn't want to go back to it, which is where I Can Hear Music, Bluebirds and most of the Dennis songs enter the picture. But the Smile tracks were a looming exception that they knew the value of and had wanted to finish, with Brian alluding to some group argument that year over his refusal to use the material while he was still taking a more active leadership role. Prayer was already effectively done and only sweetened while Cabin Essence was close enough that Carl could add the finishing touches without stepping on Brian's toes. Considering they were in the last week of a tight deadline and looking for some strong Brian contributions that could be completed without too much work, those were obvious candidates.

Other parts of Smile were still in the air in '68. David Anderle got wind that Child is Father of the Man would be on Brian's next album, which ended up happening via Little Bird. My Only Sunshine and the original version of Wonderful were reviewed with Stack-O-Tracks material in January. Workshop, Our Prayer and Cabin Essence were used on 20/20, while the original Wind Chimes was also given a safety copy and Surf's Up was evidently still hanging in the background.

Thanks that answers some of the questions but unless anyone else has anything else it still looks like original Smile as a complete project gasped its last breath October 67.

(Mike must have felt some chagrin at them having to release the much hated lyrics!  That must have hurt a bit)
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Zenobi
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« Reply #411 on: July 27, 2022, 08:34:34 AM »

About the Elements, I love this fanmix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T22jnfrvWB4

Imho it gives a good idea of how the "Elements" track could have been like, and this in only 3 minutes 40 seconds!
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JakeH
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« Reply #412 on: July 27, 2022, 09:00:45 AM »

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.
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Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #413 on: July 27, 2022, 09:44:50 AM »

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

Wow - wonderful!  Thank you!  My thoughts completely, though I hadn't read the Crawdaddy piece in years - I have upstairs, I must go and dig it out!
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Angela Jones
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« Reply #414 on: July 27, 2022, 09:46:55 AM »

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

Thanks so much for that. Everything I've heard and read suggests to me that Dada wasn't just about water, or childhood, but both.  But keeping the childhood analogy, it's what it grew into that counts. And it grew into In Blue Hawaii.

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.
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« Reply #415 on: July 27, 2022, 10:31:11 AM »

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"


This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.



Thanks so much for that. Everything I've heard and read suggests to me that Dada wasn't just about water, or childhood, but both.  But keeping the childhood analogy, it's what it grew into that counts. And it grew into In Blue Hawaii.



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« Reply #416 on: July 27, 2022, 11:12:21 AM »

I think that one of the reasons the "Elements" track was abandoned is that the whole "elements" idea grew to the point it could no more be represented by a single track. And, so, in BWPS, it became the whole Third Movement.
Also, has not the elemental theme always been in the DNA of the Beach Boys (starting from their very name)?
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« Reply #417 on: July 27, 2022, 11:14:31 AM »

Pertinent to this thread - Alan Boyd about missing SMiLE stuff: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/missing-66-67-smile-tapes.56327/

Probably many of you will have seen this before.
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« Reply #418 on: July 27, 2022, 11:20:44 AM »

I think that one of the reasons the "Elements" track was abandoned is that the whole "elements" idea grew to the point it could no more be represented by a single track. And, so, in BWPS, it became the whole Third Movement.

Was it abandoned?  Fire exists.  According to Frank Holmes Vega-tables is Earth.  I always understood that Wind chimes was air.  CCW and LTSDD may have been water.  Since it seems that the album was never completed to Brian's satisfaction it may only be as abandoned as the rest of the album.
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« Reply #419 on: July 27, 2022, 11:29:44 AM »

Pertinent to this thread - Alan Boyd about missing SMiLE stuff: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/missing-66-67-smile-tapes.56327/

Probably many of you will have seen this before.

Things are in a little better shape now since that post in 2005.  I did a teeeeeeny tiny bit of work on that stuff when I worked with him, but Alan has been able to go through the Smile material much more thoroughly with the 2011 boxed set getting funded.  Still a lot of missing stuff, though, sadly.
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« Reply #420 on: July 27, 2022, 12:09:03 PM »

Pertinent to this thread - Alan Boyd about missing SMiLE stuff: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/missing-66-67-smile-tapes.56327/

Probably many of you will have seen this before.

Things are in a little better shape now since that post in 2005.  I did a teeeeeeny tiny bit of work on that stuff when I worked with him, but Alan has been able to go through the Smile material much more thoroughly with the 2011 boxed set getting funded.  Still a lot of missing stuff, though, sadly.

One of the items mentioned in that post from Alan from 2005 that has since been more or less cleared as a possibility is that infamous tape vault photo, with the apparent "safety copies" of albums along with a tape labeled "Brian - Dumb Angel." Through a bunch of sleuthing and deduction later on, it was determined that those tapes belonged to some sort of superfan/peripheral associate/friend of the band. Nobody ever got to the bottom of exactly why or how those tapes were there (though lots of likely/plausible theories), so I don't think it's 100%  cleared as picturing possible since-lost tapes. But it's very unlikely. I'm guessing it was either a prop tape or, depending on when the photo was taken, a dub of some old boot.

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« Reply #421 on: July 27, 2022, 12:20:12 PM »

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

For all I don't give weight to the theory that Da Da was ever a section of The Elements itself, this is a fascinating quote. It really does lend some insight into how one song concept might have morphed into another. Thanks for digging that out.

Arbitrary, but I'll clear up the date discrepancy -

The two early versions of Da Da are on an 8-track reel following the Sep 19 Prayer session and a verse of Do You Like Worms with backing vocals, with the later additions both being penned in at the same time in Jerry Hochman's handwriting (Valentin was the engineer on Prayer). There's a Capitol worksheet for a Do You Like Worms vocal session at Columbia on December 21, so it was naturally assumed that those Worms vocals and Da Da were recorded on the same date (I spoke to Craig about it whose reasoning for putting Dec 22 in the TSS book was the thought that it'd have been after midnight, not connected to the Heroes and Villains session later that day). However, after some extra digging, it seems that Worms verse was spliced out of the master of the whole song on the main 8-track Columbia reel and placed on the other tape. Brian spliced Bicycle Rider onto the Heroes and Villains verse track on December 27 when he repurposed it for that song, leading to the conclusion that he put the Worms verse elsewhere at around the same time as a way to salvage the material. We have a rough idea of what Brian recorded on Dec 27 via some mono mixes, so by elimination the most plausible explanation for what he did during the second Brian-only Columbia session on Dec 28 would be the Heroes 'Part 3' bells/celeste/piano waltz section and Da Da, both engineered by Hochman, both Brian laying down tracks without the group related to the same batch of material.
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« Reply #422 on: July 27, 2022, 12:32:21 PM »

I think that one of the reasons the "Elements" track was abandoned is that the whole "elements" idea grew to the point it could no more be represented by a single track. And, so, in BWPS, it became the whole Third Movement.

Was it abandoned?  Fire exists.  According to Frank Holmes Vega-tables is Earth.  I always understood that Wind chimes was air.  CCW and LTSDD may have been water.  Since it seems that the album was never completed to Brian's satisfaction it may only be as abandoned as the rest of the album.

I mean that the idea of Elements as its own independent, probably instrumental, track was abandoned. I agree that, beyond the obvious Fire, thematically Vega-tables represents Earth, Wind Chimes represents Air and LTSDD came to represent Water, but the four pieces together would already be a kind of more-than-10-minutes suite.
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« Reply #423 on: July 27, 2022, 06:44:42 PM »

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

Excellent reference.

The lineage is indeed more than plausible, it lines up very well to where Brian's mind was at, at that time. One of the themes in the movie "Seconds", if not the main theme, is that of "rebirth". In Seconds, the movie that freaked Brian out in Fall '66 because he saw his life play out in the plot, it's a secret corporation which provides a rebirth for those who want and can afford it. For Brian, it's said he experienced a "rebirth" during one of his LSD trips earlier. No dirty laundry, it's been mentioned for many years. It led in ways to the conception of his "Teenage Symphony To God". I wish Bill Tobelman could chime in, I really miss his insights and writings.

All of this begs the question: If this information has been published and on the record for how many years, and the quote is one which other fans have read before and are reminded of thanks to the posting above, why was there such a pushback to the notion that "DaDa" was not connected to the "water" concept? The logic of it adds up, the timeline and connection to Brian's mindset at the time adds up, and on a visceral level it just seems to fit.

And it brings out my opinion which I was meaning to post anyway, after Don Malcom's two excellent posts and insights: The full story of Smile cannot be found in, and cannot be told solely on, the basis of AFM contracts, corporate memos and documents, and reels of tape and their boxes. The majority of what happened was not recorded on those formats, and encompasses much more. I hope ideas and opinions that have merit, and are based in fact, are not dismissed as overtly and sometimes as harshly as they were earlier in this discussion.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 06:48:19 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #424 on: July 28, 2022, 12:41:12 AM »

I've had some difficulty following this thread, but I gather that there has been some dispute over what "Love to Say Da Da" is, or was, supposed to be.

It seems that Brian is working on the song in some form in late December 1966. Dates of December 22-23 have ( I thought) been out there, and sloopjohnb72 here in this thread has mentioend December 27-28.  I certainly am not one to know whether or not it was just instrumental/piano in these days, or if Brian had already come up with the wah-wah-whoa-ah vocal pattern at this point in December.

In any case, these late December days constitute the time period during which Paul Williams of Crawdaddy magazine visited Brian at his house. Williams recounted time spent in Brian's swimming pool early in the morning of Dec. 24, 1966:

So at the end of the night we went to the pool, watched by the dogs. I kept my glasses on, because standing in that pool we could see the lights of Los Angeles (or the Valley) twinkling below us like a natural wonder. The water was warm.  Brian told me enthusiastically the it was heated to exactly 98.6, body temperature. ‘So if you get down in the water like this’ (he demonstrated) ‘and stand up, it’s like being born, like the feeling of being born.’"

This suggests that to Brian's way of thinking at the time, "water" and baby" and "rebirth" go together - each are components of one whole conceptual piece; it's not either-or.  The fact that a "baby" song could morph into a "water" song would then seem to be natural and understandable . And in Brian Wilson Presents Smile, the concept is fully realized. The idea comes to full fruition in the third movement, which in my opinion is perfect, as (among other things) it makes perfect use of the "Da Da" concept and music. In those passages, BWPS fully actualizes the idea that Brian was talking to Paul Williams about that night in the swimming pool.

Excellent reference.

The lineage is indeed more than plausible, it lines up very well to where Brian's mind was at, at that time. One of the themes in the movie "Seconds", if not the main theme, is that of "rebirth". In Seconds, the movie that freaked Brian out in Fall '66 because he saw his life play out in the plot, it's a secret corporation which provides a rebirth for those who want and can afford it. For Brian, it's said he experienced a "rebirth" during one of his LSD trips earlier. No dirty laundry, it's been mentioned for many years. It led in ways to the conception of his "Teenage Symphony To God". I wish Bill Tobelman could chime in, I really miss his insights and writings.

All of this begs the question: If this information has been published and on the record for how many years, and the quote is one which other fans have read before and are reminded of thanks to the posting above, why was there such a pushback to the notion that "DaDa" was not connected to the "water" concept? The logic of it adds up, the timeline and connection to Brian's mindset at the time adds up, and on a visceral level it just seems to fit.

And it brings out my opinion which I was meaning to post anyway, after Don Malcom's two excellent posts and insights: The full story of Smile cannot be found in, and cannot be told solely on, the basis of AFM contracts, corporate memos and documents, and reels of tape and their boxes. The majority of what happened was not recorded on those formats, and encompasses much more. I hope ideas and opinions that have merit, and are based in fact, are not dismissed as overtly and sometimes as harshly as they were earlier in this discussion.



Thank you for the above. I think it is obvious that LTSDD must connect to water - apart from anything else, this very pictorial music contains sounds that obviously seem to be meant to represent dripping, and that idea is taken up with the actual word 'drip' in Cool Cool Water. As for the 'child' theme, it could be that too but that is already covered in Child is Father of the Man (I particularly love the version with the very high key childlike vocal, which they didn't use in BWPS and may have been hard to reproduce live). And it has been suggested that L ove to S ay D ada is a reference to LSD and Brian's third (?) trip, which brings us back to the birth, death, rebirth theme. There is a Hawaiian chant that connects to rebirth as mentioned in the essay Smile, Hawaii: Not Gibberish After All. It's not proof but it's a convincing argument IMO.
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