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Author Topic: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss  (Read 37213 times)
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #225 on: July 24, 2022, 10:56:23 AM »

We are not writing the definitive history.

Some of us are, actually....
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #226 on: July 24, 2022, 11:04:46 AM »

Liz, for the record, you did say that, because I copied it from your message and pasted it into my own without typing it.

Speculation is fun, but learning things that objectively happened is pretty cool too - I've posted some facts about the tapes and what they reveal about Brian's plans at the time, and I don't think some of that information was previously available. Isn't that exciting new info that reveals much more specifics about the project than vague quotes?
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« Reply #227 on: July 24, 2022, 11:48:26 AM »

"Love to Say Da Da is Water" was an assumption made due to the similarities between that track and a later track about water. This got repeated for decades, because, to be honest, it made a lot of sense. But there is no evidence that this was the case, and we should not be repeating that assumption. A quick glance at a timeline of Brian's productions shows that the 2 songs were miles away from each other, and never conceived as even part of the same project, let alone the same song.

My point exactly -
 
I Love to Say Da Da was being recorded in sessions with other Smile music before Cool Cool Water was written and resumed recording under the name of Love to Say Da Da  after Cool Cool Water had been written, as late as 19th May 1967
Cool Cool Water is recorded in June 1967 with other tracks destined for Smiley Smile but remained unused until Sunflower.  The version recorded for Sunflower included I Love to Say Da Da.
If I love to Say Da Da was not Water - what was since it clearly was never Cool Cool Water?

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« Reply #228 on: July 24, 2022, 11:56:50 AM »

By the way, how much interest is there in the actual facts regarding dates and documents and when splices were made, etc? I would think that would be right up the alley of every Smile fan on earth, but I've been surprised to see a lot of the info, which has been revealed here for the first time, completely ignored! Brian splicing the Worms verse from Worms (which he'd otherwise just chopped up for Heroes) and planning to use it as an intro for the original Da Da, via notes on the tape box? I thought that would get a big reaction!

Putting aside the debates regarding contemporary quotes and what they mean re Smile's transition into Smiley Smile, I'm surprised that most of the new information that's being given in this thread from original documents is kind of getting washed over. That's the part that fascinates me the most - the music, and exactly how, when, and where it was made. Through that, Brian's rapidly changing plans can be traced, as can his increasing interesting in minimal tracks, and instruments that are stacked by himself, rather than played by a live ensemble.

Just wanted to pipe up and say that I've appreciated the discussion in this thread and the very interesting, informative, and thought-provoking contributions that've been made.

And it got me in the mood to listen to the Smiley material on the Sunshine Tomorrow releases...so thanks all around!
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« Reply #229 on: July 24, 2022, 12:03:59 PM »

I am pretty confused at some of these questions, but there's more misinfo that I feel the need to correct.

Love to Say Da Da was first recorded, under that title, in December 1966. It was recorded again in May 1967.

Cool Cool Water was recorded at Western Recorders in June.

If you're contesting that the two songs share similarities - please relisten; the chord progressions are identical, the bass lines are identical - it's a reworking of the same basic musical material, with a shift in lyrical matter from babies to water. Counter melodies played by instruments in Love to Say Da Da are reprised by vocal parts in various editions of Cool Cool Water.

The chant where they all sing "water, water" over a drone is not a recording that was made for a song called Love to Say Da Da. As we said earlier, it is labeled as "Cool Cool Water - Fade" on the tape box, and was recorded in Brian's home studio using his Baldwin organ during either the Smiley Smile era or the Wild Honey era. It is a section of Cool Cool Water that was recorded under that name. So, no version of Cool Cool Water worked on by the Beach Boys "included Love to Say Da Da", unless of course, you refer to the musical material being based in that original song.

The idea that Love to Say Da Da was part of Brian's "Elements" song comes from the fact that it's a variation of the same music as Cool Cool Water, which obviously pulls from ideas Brian had about recording music about water, although that never happened during the proper Smile era. It was assumed then that LTSDD was part of Brian's elements idea. Again, this sounds logical, but we know things about Smile that weren't known in the 80s when people first got that notion. We know when things were recorded, how songs evolved, etc. That assumption has been repeated a lot, by several different authors who don't dive into the specifics of what songs Brian was working on in what stages of the project. There are absolutely zero sources that back this theory up, and there is plenty of evidence that suggests exactly when Brian was working on The Elements, what it consisted of at each stage, and when he left the idea behind. I sent a pretty thorough message on that a few pages back.

What is it if it's not a section of The Elements? ...It's a song called Love to Say Da Da. That's why we're able to refer to it as a song with a title. It had one. It is slated that way, that title is written on tape boxes by different engineers at different studios, and all the paperwork matches.
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« Reply #230 on: July 24, 2022, 12:09:56 PM »

If it's being contested that Cool Cool Water is a rewrite of LTSDD because of Brian saying he wrote CCW in March 1967... he was off by a few months. Remember, this is him explaining when he wrote it years later. At his Grammy speech, he claimed Smile was recorded in 1965, and in the new documentary, he said That Lucky Old Sun premiered in 2005. Demonstrably, he's just a little bit off in his memory of when LTSDD was rewritten as CCW. Again, people can misremember things, but music doesn't lie. Listen to the songs. They are the same. That is how the "LTSDD is Water" rumor started in the first place.
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #231 on: July 24, 2022, 12:10:43 PM »

By the way, how much interest is there in the actual facts regarding dates and documents and when splices were made, etc? I would think that would be right up the alley of every Smile fan on earth, but I've been surprised to see a lot of the info, which has been revealed here for the first time, completely ignored! Brian splicing the Worms verse from Worms (which he'd otherwise just chopped up for Heroes) and planning to use it as an intro for the original Da Da, via notes on the tape box? I thought that would get a big reaction!

Putting aside the debates regarding contemporary quotes and what they mean re Smile's transition into Smiley Smile, I'm surprised that most of the new information that's being given in this thread from original documents is kind of getting washed over. That's the part that fascinates me the most - the music, and exactly how, when, and where it was made. Through that, Brian's rapidly changing plans can be traced, as can his increasing interesting in minimal tracks, and instruments that are stacked by himself, rather than played by a live ensemble.

Just wanted to pipe up and say that I've appreciated the discussion in this thread and the very interesting, informative, and thought-provoking contributions that've been made.

And it got me in the mood to listen to the Smiley material on the Sunshine Tomorrow releases...so thanks all around!

Hell yeah. Sunshine Tomorrow rules!
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« Reply #232 on: July 24, 2022, 12:29:19 PM »

When presented with new information on when pieces were recorded, and when we have the history of the music completely backwards, the logical next step would not be to think "Well, I'll continue to believe this baseless theory/assumption until there's evidence that directly states otherwise." The more reasonable reaction would be, "Wait, was there ever any reason to believe that in the first place, now that documentation, tape box info, and other info is more accessible to fans?"

The answer, in this case, is a resounding no.

I've given a history of the song, and a bit of history as to how this misconception came to be, how it persisted, and why it makes no sense now that we have a timeline of Brian's works. The only recording session for a song called "The Elements" came with "Part 1" of the song, on November 28, 1966. On the way home from the session, Brian had given the song another name. A few days later (I believe the exact date was found in another thread on here!) Brian scrapped the idea completely due to his paranoia about fires. He made a comment about a candle instead of a fire, but no recording session connected to the title "The Elements" ever occurred again.

Love to Say Da Da was recorded, in every occasion, as "Love to Say Da Da." If it was a part of The Elements, you would hear Jimmy Hilton say, "THE ELEMENTS, PART TWOOOO!" in a goofy voice. But that's not what the song was called. It was called Love to Say Da Da. We don't need evidence that Good Vibrations was never a bridge for You Still Believe in Me... but we can say there's no evidence that suggests that, and therefore no reason to believe it. And once again, the timeline of contemporary documentation AND quotes from Brian in articles shows that the two songs likely never even co-existed.
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« Reply #233 on: July 24, 2022, 12:43:01 PM »

Obviously history is an imperfect discipline.  The best we can do is follow time-tested methodologies.  

As I said, we are slowly uncovering more and more documentation from more and more sources.  And in many cases it is quite easy to determine if it's correct.  If an AFM turns up for a track called "Love to Say Dada," and the date matches a tape that is stored in a tape box that is labeled "Love to Say Dada," and then the contents of the tape involve the people listed on the AFM talking about a song called "Love to Say Dada" -- that's all really good evidence that a song called Love to Say Dada was recorded on that date.

Now, of course, it's not always that easy, but the point is, we are rebuilding the Beach Boys studio narrative by consulting as many resources as we can.  That includes contemporary comments by the band, of course, but also lots of other types of sources.  Have you seen all the tape boxes?  Have you seen the Capitol worksheets?  Do you know when a piece of tape was physically removed from the place it was originally recorded and spliced into a new tape?  Without that kind of information, the story is incomplete.

The nice thing about tape is it can't lie.  What is on the tape is on the tape.  What is in the tape box is in the tape box.  It doesn't matter what the AFM says, or the Capitol documentation says, or what Bruce or Al or even what Brian says -- what's on the tape is on the tape.

Not all of life is put on tapes in boxes. Did they tape all the conversations between the band members - no.  Do we have on tape what Brian intended to go on Smile and what sequence - no.  Do we have on tape Brian's feelings or his state of mind or documentary proof that he was despairing- no. We will never have these things and so they will always be a source for speculation especially when there is crucial information missing including why there was a press release saying it was scrapped.  We are clearly missing a dialogue, a thought, an intent and an arrangement to 'scrap' it (and that word was on a printed document so it must be right).  We are also missing the reasoning for recording using different pared down style and bringing out an album called Smiley Smile instead of Smile - if it had all been a progression then the name could have stood and Capitol would not have been discussing the cover of the associated second album being issued after Smiley.
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Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #234 on: July 24, 2022, 12:44:47 PM »

We are not writing the definitive history.

Some of us are, actually....

 LOL. Here?  Get a publisher - no one is going to read this except some fans.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #235 on: July 24, 2022, 12:53:55 PM »

We are not writing the definitive history.

Some of us are, actually....

 LOL. Here?  Get a publisher - no one is going to read this except some fans.

One step ahead of you.  

Also, truth is not venue-dependent.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 01:03:45 PM by Joshilyn Hoisington » Logged
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« Reply #236 on: July 24, 2022, 12:58:22 PM »

Just to make it clear, so we are not dealing in innuendos and such, there is a team of people working on a real, actual book about all this -- not just Smile, but the complete studio sessions.  It's a real thing, and we are doing actual research, and real people out there in the world are interested in it.  Because of this interest, we are able to do genuinely new research, and we take it very seriously.  Please don't denigrate our work.  The fact is, some of us are essentially working on this documentation full time.  Don't blow it off.
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« Reply #237 on: July 24, 2022, 01:03:18 PM »

Liz, for the record, you did say that, because I copied it from your message and pasted it into my own without typing it.

Speculation is fun, but learning things that objectively happened is pretty cool too - I've posted some facts about the tapes and what they reveal about Brian's plans at the time, and I don't think some of that information was previously available. Isn't that exciting new info that reveals much more specifics about the project than vague quotes?

Sorry  I copied it from Joshilyn's post but included the upper case so this quote is out of context.  I was implying it was worked on but it wasn't official.  

If I could understand what you meant about the tapes I would probably be interested.  At the moment going to look for the various parts from various CD's when I'm fire fighting on here and dealing with my own daily life is too much trouble.

I was enjoying the thread and ideas of others and then it just gets into a fight which wears me down and reminds me why I gave up posting here.  In the end life will go on whatever you or I write and time will tell if Brian is the victor and has history written to his advantage or if Mike is.  Everyone has their own beliefs and what we know about the world now is that just because it is the accepted version doesn't make it true, so I'll stick to my own beliefs.  I remember someone saying there was 'incontrovertible  proof' of a historic event and I wondered  what proof could be incontrovertible - the scientists aren't even sure that we're not a video game.
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« Reply #238 on: July 24, 2022, 01:14:54 PM »

I was enjoying the thread and ideas of others and then it just gets into a fight which wears me down and reminds me why I gave up posting here.  In the end life will go on whatever you or I write and time will tell if Brian is the victor and has history written to his advantage or if Mike is.  Everyone has their own beliefs and what we know about the world now is that just because it is the accepted version doesn't make it true, so I'll stick to my own beliefs.  I remember someone saying there was 'incontrovertible  proof' of a historic event and I wondered  what proof could be incontrovertible - the scientists aren't even sure that we're not a video game.

Oof, well, of course if we operate under the assumption, arguendo, that there is no such thing as truth, then yes, things get tricky, don't they?  I think we probably are living in a video game, so I don't worry about it and just use the rules of the game to construct what truth I can within those bounds.  That is way more comfortable to me than a version of the world where nothing is true so I construct my own reality regardless of external input.   Shocked
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« Reply #239 on: July 24, 2022, 01:15:49 PM »

I like the discussion too; it's fun. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but when misinformation is spread about The Beach Boys' recording career, I feel some responsibility to correct it so that impressionable fans don't get the wrong ideas about the music. This isn't related to what the band said to each other behind closed doors, the fights that occur off the records, etc, etc, because no one can ever know about that for sure. And it is fun as hell to speculate.

But when the theories are founded on information that is just not true, such as the water chant being recorded for LTSDD in May, or the entirety of LTSDD being a section of The Elements, the truth needs to be clarified. If you don't quite understand what I'm saying regarding the documentation and what it shows, that's fine. But if you're continuing to "stick to your own beliefs" when your beliefs have been shown to be founded on misconceptions, and when they are directly contradicted by actual evidence, you are just choosing not to believe facts. Which is fine, but it's not something I like seeing spread about my favorite band, and my favorite era of my favorite band, when there's already so much confusion and misinformation, about admittedly a very confusing album(s) and time period.

This isn't a logical conversation, though, if we're going to ignore actual evidence in favor of objective falsities simply because we like them better. It's not a conversation I wish to continue, as it feels a little bit like trying to explain that the earth isn't flat to some older relatives. I do hope that other people appreciate some of the new found info, and the attempt at narrowing down the truth.
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« Reply #240 on: July 24, 2022, 01:21:22 PM »

I am pretty confused at some of these questions, but there's more misinfo that I feel the need to correct.

Love to Say Da Da was first recorded, under that title, in December 1966. It was recorded again in May 1967.

Cool Cool Water was recorded at Western Recorders in June.

If you're contesting that the two songs share similarities - please relisten; the chord progressions are identical, the bass lines are identical - it's a reworking of the same basic musical material, with a shift in lyrical matter from babies to water. Counter melodies played by instruments in Love to Say Da Da are reprised by vocal parts in various editions of Cool Cool Water.

The chant where they all sing "water, water" over a drone is not a recording that was made for a song called Love to Say Da Da. As we said earlier, it is labeled as "Cool Cool Water - Fade" on the tape box, and was recorded in Brian's home studio using his Baldwin organ during either the Smiley Smile era or the Wild Honey era. It is a section of Cool Cool Water that was recorded under that name. So, no version of Cool Cool Water worked on by the Beach Boys "included Love to Say Da Da", unless of course, you refer to the musical material being based in that original song.

The idea that Love to Say Da Da was part of Brian's "Elements" song comes from the fact that it's a variation of the same music as Cool Cool Water, which obviously pulls from ideas Brian had about recording music about water, although that never happened during the proper Smile era. It was assumed then that LTSDD was part of Brian's elements idea. Again, this sounds logical, but we know things about Smile that weren't known in the 80s when people first got that notion. We know when things were recorded, how songs evolved, etc. That assumption has been repeated a lot, by several different authors who don't dive into the specifics of what songs Brian was working on in what stages of the project. There are absolutely zero sources that back this theory up, and there is plenty of evidence that suggests exactly when Brian was working on The Elements, what it consisted of at each stage, and when he left the idea behind. I sent a pretty thorough message on that a few pages back.

What is it if it's not a section of The Elements? ...It's a song called Love to Say Da Da. That's why we're able to refer to it as a song with a title. It had one. It is slated that way, that title is written on tape boxes by different engineers at different studios, and all the paperwork matches.

“Love to Say Da Da was first recorded, under that title, in December 1966. It was recorded again in May 1967.”  That’s what I said.  You disagreed with the dates and instruments given on the Smile Sessions CD so not to be contentious the next time I mentioned it I wasn't specific.

I am not saying the songs don’t share similarities - Brian thought they worked together and then changed his mind - who am I to quibble.  I’m saying they were written separately.  Da Da was intended for Smile.  Cool Cool Water wasn’t. 

Vegetables has a title and yet was Earth. 

I’m not asking you what is Da Da - I’m asking what song was Water for The Elements because it seems we don’t have one?    And rather weird that Da Da was reworked into Blue Hawaii - the water sequence for BWPS.
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Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #241 on: July 24, 2022, 01:24:30 PM »

We are not writing the definitive history.

Some of us are, actually....

 LOL. Here?  Get a publisher - no one is going to read this except some fans.

One step ahead of you.  

Also, truth is not venue-dependent.

No but disseminating it is.  Will there be a peer review? Wink
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« Reply #242 on: July 24, 2022, 01:26:29 PM »

I count 4 claims in that message that are objectively untrue, as they are contradicted by the documentation that I have access to, and are founded upon absolutely nothing. I can't do this anymore, sorry.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #243 on: July 24, 2022, 01:27:09 PM »

Da Da was intended for Smile.  Cool Cool Water wasn’t. 

Vegetables has a title and yet was Earth. 

I’m not asking you what is Da Da - I’m asking what song was Water for The Elements because it seems we don’t have one?    And rather weird that Da Da was reworked into Blue Hawaii - the water sequence for BWPS.

You've made all of that up.  You are assuming that there was at some point a Water element, and Earth Element, and an Air element, because there was a Fire element.  It's a cool idea to have an elements suite.  Brian thought so too for a couple hours before he changed his mind.  But there is no contemporary evidence for the Elements ever getting beyond Fire.  The fact that Darian put together Blue Hawaii in 2004 has no bearing on that.
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« Reply #244 on: July 24, 2022, 01:27:35 PM »

We are not writing the definitive history.

Some of us are, actually....

 LOL. Here?  Get a publisher - no one is going to read this except some fans.

One step ahead of you.  

Also, truth is not venue-dependent.

No but disseminating it is.  Will there be a peer review? Wink

Absolutely.
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Galaxy Liz
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« Reply #245 on: July 24, 2022, 01:28:36 PM »

Just to make it clear, so we are not dealing in innuendos and such, there is a team of people working on a real, actual book about all this -- not just Smile, but the complete studio sessions.  It's a real thing, and we are doing actual research, and real people out there in the world are interested in it.  Because of this interest, we are able to do genuinely new research, and we take it very seriously.  Please don't denigrate our work.  The fact is, some of us are essentially working on this documentation full time.  Don't blow it off.

I'm sure that's all very lovely. But you'll have to get used to denigration if you are going to be published, there will be critics.  I think there is a very niche market though for this kind of book.
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« Reply #246 on: July 24, 2022, 01:31:49 PM »

Just to make it clear, so we are not dealing in innuendos and such, there is a team of people working on a real, actual book about all this -- not just Smile, but the complete studio sessions.  It's a real thing, and we are doing actual research, and real people out there in the world are interested in it.  Because of this interest, we are able to do genuinely new research, and we take it very seriously.  Please don't denigrate our work.  The fact is, some of us are essentially working on this documentation full time.  Don't blow it off.

I'm sure that's all very lovely. But you'll have to get used to denigration if you are going to be published, there will be critics.  I think there is a very niche market though for this kind of book.

I'm more or less fine with denigration, but you are not a critic, at this point you're just making fun of us.


I count 4 claims in that message that are objectively untrue, as they are contradicted by the documentation that I have access to, and are founded upon absolutely nothing. I can't do this anymore, sorry.

Yeah, I'm out, too.  I think we're being had.
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« Reply #247 on: July 24, 2022, 01:35:04 PM »

I was enjoying the thread and ideas of others and then it just gets into a fight which wears me down and reminds me why I gave up posting here.  In the end life will go on whatever you or I write and time will tell if Brian is the victor and has history written to his advantage or if Mike is.  Everyone has their own beliefs and what we know about the world now is that just because it is the accepted version doesn't make it true, so I'll stick to my own beliefs.  I remember someone saying there was 'incontrovertible  proof' of a historic event and I wondered  what proof could be incontrovertible - the scientists aren't even sure that we're not a video game.

Oof, well, of course if we operate under the assumption, arguendo, that there is no such thing as truth, then yes, things get tricky, don't they?  I think we probably are living in a video game, so I don't worry about it and just use the rules of the game to construct what truth I can within those bounds.  That is way more comfortable to me than a version of the world where nothing is true so I construct my own reality regardless of external input.   Shocked

I think there is such a thing as truth I just think that in many cases it is absolutely unprovable unless of course you limit your research into the minutiae of what is written on a box label.  But as already discussed I didn't drink coffee this morning because it wasn't captured on tape and Neptune didn't exist before 1876.  
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« Reply #248 on: July 24, 2022, 01:36:03 PM »

By the way, how much interest is there in the actual facts regarding dates and documents and when splices were made, etc? I would think that would be right up the alley of every Smile fan on earth, but I've been surprised to see a lot of the info, which has been revealed here for the first time, completely ignored! Brian splicing the Worms verse from Worms (which he'd otherwise just chopped up for Heroes) and planning to use it as an intro for the original Da Da, via notes on the tape box? I thought that would get a big reaction!

Putting aside the debates regarding contemporary quotes and what they mean re Smile's transition into Smiley Smile, I'm surprised that most of the new information that's being given in this thread from original documents is kind of getting washed over. That's the part that fascinates me the most - the music, and exactly how, when, and where it was made. Through that, Brian's rapidly changing plans can be traced, as can his increasing interesting in minimal tracks, and instruments that are stacked by himself, rather than played by a live ensemble.

Just wanted to pipe up and say that I've appreciated the discussion in this thread and the very interesting, informative, and thought-provoking contributions that've been made.

And it got me in the mood to listen to the Smiley material on the Sunshine Tomorrow releases...so thanks all around!

This.

Quite frankly I love all the discussion, all the theories. Heck, it’s why I’ve had Bill Tobelman’s site linked in my signature for years. I remember the downright brawls people would get into regarding his theories, and it was all great stuff.

Ever since this topic started I’ve been listening to Smile tracks, blasting BWPS, and listening to Smiley. So thanks for starting the thread, and thanks to everyone who has contributed. It has brought a bright shining light into my world the last couple days.
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« Reply #249 on: July 24, 2022, 01:36:38 PM »

Damn it’s like I miss so much of the action when I’m offline!

Trying to get caught back up

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By the way, how much interest is there in the actual facts regarding dates and documents and when splices were made, etc? I would think that would be right up the alley of every Smile fan on earth, but I've been surprised to see a lot of the info, which has been revealed here for the first time, completely ignored!
I’m definitely interested!  Hell, I’ve already stated several times here that I didn’t quite buy what the myth stated about Smile , because of the contradictions and some of the dubious “journalism “ of the time. A lot of people don’t know that there’s new information; if it hadn’t  been discussed here during the release of TSS, I wouldn’t know it. I actually thought we knew everything there was to know , and I suspect a lot of others did too
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