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Author Topic: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss  (Read 37200 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2022, 01:04:56 PM »

Sure, good point, but again, there are 2 things being talked about here, and we're confusing them for the same thing. Brian's original plan for the album had been scrapped. Brian was still working on an album for the Beach Boys, and there wasn't a new title for it yet. These 2 facts are not contradictory.

That seems more like opinion, unless there is proof besides Derek Taylor's article which is in question, as to when "Smile" was actually scrapped. The only thing that was reported definitively that Spring was that "Heroes" would not be coming out and "Vegetables" would possibly replace it as the single. Obviously that changed too. As late as that April 29 NME article, the Smile album was still the album of note everyone was waiting for. Nothing seems to have been decided until the band returned from Europe and they "started from scratch" as Carl described how Smiley Smile came to be.

Is there a firm date anywhere as to when "Smile" was scrapped? I've never seen one, and having looked at many angles and possibilities for years, I believe even more that Taylor's article wasn't as definitive (nor as factual) as had been previously thought.
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« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2022, 01:18:24 PM »

Well, by "Smile", what exactly do you mean? What exact sequence of songs are you referring to, and what exact structure of each song?

The next album by the Beach Boys was never scrapped. It was continually changing. If you're asking if the exact moment Brian scrapped that list of 12 songs in favor of the 11 songs on Smiley Smile is known, well, that moment simply doesn't exist. We can know when lots of little changes were made, though. For example, Do You Like Worms was no longer a song by December 27, at the latest. The tape evidence suggests that the song had been chopped up on or before that date, with the chorus being removed to after the opening Heroes verse (where it would be "Heroes and Villains part 2" for the next month), and the verse was removed to the Prayer reel, where Da Da would immediately be recorded onto (it was possibly going to be used as an intro here). For another example, My Only Sunshine was no longer on the album by February 10, when Brian replaced the group vocals with his own voice, and used it as the fadeout to Heroes and Villains. Small little changes like these are traceable, as Smile turns from one thing into another. The album is a completely different entity in Brian's mind with each week, and to refuse to see it that way is to intentionally misunderstand Brian's working methods of the time.
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« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2022, 02:33:55 PM »

Well, by "Smile", what exactly do you mean? What exact sequence of songs are you referring to, and what exact structure of each song?

The next album by the Beach Boys was never scrapped. It was continually changing. If you're asking if the exact moment Brian scrapped that list of 12 songs in favor of the 11 songs on Smiley Smile is known, well, that moment simply doesn't exist. We can know when lots of little changes were made, though. For example, Do You Like Worms was no longer a song by December 27, at the latest. The tape evidence suggests that the song had been chopped up on or before that date, with the chorus being removed to after the opening Heroes verse (where it would be "Heroes and Villains part 2" for the next month), and the verse was removed to the Prayer reel, where Da Da would immediately be recorded onto (it was possibly going to be used as an intro here). For another example, My Only Sunshine was no longer on the album by February 10, when Brian replaced the group vocals with his own voice, and used it as the fadeout to Heroes and Villains. Small little changes like these are traceable, as Smile turns from one thing into another. The album is a completely different entity in Brian's mind with each week, and to refuse to see it that way is to intentionally misunderstand Brian's working methods of the time.

And that may be as good of an explanation as any as to why SMiLE didn’t come out. It kept changing. Truthfully most albums are like that. Brian started these sessions off with multiple different ideas, not just for one album. We have a tendency to take everyone of his ideas that were mentioned in interviews and applied them all to the project, forgetting the fact that he was changing his mind constantly. We talk about the damage the acid , the cocaine, and what Landy did, when we forget he was popping speed pills like candy.  That’s gonna play with anybody’s ability to keep things in check (unless they’re prescribed for ADHD) , but especially someone with underlying mental illness. The other thing is…and I’m going to put this as delicately as possible, but… I absolutely despise the rock journalism of this era. Very sensationalistic, borderline tabloid, and mostly hype with very little fact checking. How many times in the internet age (especially in the past ten years) have we as a society discovers that much of what we know as accepted history in rock (overall not just with The Beach Boys)isn’t true, *especially* in this era? Yet we take a lot of the legend of SMiLE at face value , when really we should be taking it with several metric tons of salt grains.
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« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2022, 02:36:31 PM »

Well, by "Smile", what exactly do you mean? What exact sequence of songs are you referring to, and what exact structure of each song?

The next album by the Beach Boys was never scrapped. It was continually changing. If you're asking if the exact moment Brian scrapped that list of 12 songs in favor of the 11 songs on Smiley Smile is known, well, that moment simply doesn't exist. We can know when lots of little changes were made, though. For example, Do You Like Worms was no longer a song by December 27, at the latest. The tape evidence suggests that the song had been chopped up on or before that date, with the chorus being removed to after the opening Heroes verse (where it would be "Heroes and Villains part 2" for the next month), and the verse was removed to the Prayer reel, where Da Da would immediately be recorded onto (it was possibly going to be used as an intro here). For another example, My Only Sunshine was no longer on the album by February 10, when Brian replaced the group vocals with his own voice, and used it as the fadeout to Heroes and Villains. Small little changes like these are traceable, as Smile turns from one thing into another. The album is a completely different entity in Brian's mind with each week, and to refuse to see it that way is to intentionally misunderstand Brian's working methods of the time.

Quote: "The next album by the Beach Boys was never scrapped. It was continually changing. If you're asking if the exact moment Brian scrapped that list of 12 songs in favor of the 11 songs on Smiley Smile is known, well, that moment simply doesn't exist."

Then the Derek Taylor "scrapped" article can be dismissed entirely? If there was never anything scrapped, what Taylor wrote and had published in May '67 meant absolutely nothing, and he was never told by anyone that Smile was "scrapped" as the basis of his article.
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« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2022, 02:58:08 PM »

No. Once again, two things are being discussed here, and are being confused as one. The next album by the Beach Boys was not scrapped, because, well, the Beach Boys released an album. What was initially planned to be on that album, was scrapped. Songs and titles and bits and pieces were being "scrapped" every day. At one point, with all the press and the excitement that was generated for the album, it would have to be clarified that the next album would not look like what was initially promised.
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« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2022, 03:10:56 PM »

Well, by "Smile", what exactly do you mean? What exact sequence of songs are you referring to, and what exact structure of each song?

The next album by the Beach Boys was never scrapped. It was continually changing. If you're asking if the exact moment Brian scrapped that list of 12 songs in favor of the 11 songs on Smiley Smile is known, well, that moment simply doesn't exist. We can know when lots of little changes were made, though. For example, Do You Like Worms was no longer a song by December 27, at the latest. The tape evidence suggests that the song had been chopped up on or before that date, with the chorus being removed to after the opening Heroes verse (where it would be "Heroes and Villains part 2" for the next month), and the verse was removed to the Prayer reel, where Da Da would immediately be recorded onto (it was possibly going to be used as an intro here). For another example, My Only Sunshine was no longer on the album by February 10, when Brian replaced the group vocals with his own voice, and used it as the fadeout to Heroes and Villains. Small little changes like these are traceable, as Smile turns from one thing into another. The album is a completely different entity in Brian's mind with each week, and to refuse to see it that way is to intentionally misunderstand Brian's working methods of the time.


None of the recordings made for Smile were used on Smiley Smile so that marks a clear delineation where Smile stopped and Smiley Smile started.  Love to Say Dada was not used on Smiley Smile and MAY have been the last thing recorded for Smile.  Cool Cool Water was not Love to Say Dada.  It was the first thing Brian wrote in his new house and was only merged with the chant from Love to Say Dada in January 1970 for Sunflower.


The scrapping of Smile and the plan for Smiley Smile (then unnamed) must have been discussed when the group returned from the tour and what Brian may have been referring to when Bruce suggested using the album they had in the can - he made a remark about a big argument.   

So we don't know the exact date but somewhere between 19th May and 6th June negations took place and an agreement reached.

Crucially the Beach Boys were given credit as producers even though Brian produced it.  That means a pay off - they got money for producing the album even though they didn't and as Steve Desper said Beach Boys politics is follow the money.  They didn't want Smile.  Brian took it off them and paid them for it with the credit and by using some of the material but mostly changed, and delivering the album really quickly which was vital because they were behind with contractual obligations and Capitol were not paying enough royalties.
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« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2022, 03:17:25 PM »

No. Once again, two things are being discussed here, and are being confused as one. The next album by the Beach Boys was not scrapped, because, well, the Beach Boys released an album. What was initially planned to be on that album, was scrapped. Songs and titles and bits and pieces were being "scrapped" every day. At one point, with all the press and the excitement that was generated for the album, it would have to be clarified that the next album would not look like what was initially promised.

The "next album" the Beach Boys released had not even been started when Taylor's article appeared announcing the album had been scrapped. So when Carl Wilson said specifically "we started from scratch" to make Smiley Smile, was he wrong? Starting from scratch is not the same as reshaping and reworking the existing project into something new. And the change to Smiley Smile was obviously not planned too far in advance if they had to rent studio gear, have a rented Gates Dualux radio station mixing console on Brian's kitchen table among other places, and cables running across the floors of his new house in order to record there. That's where the 2 weeks immediately following the band's return from Europe become so key to the timeline and history, as that looks more like the exact time when they shifted gears dramatically.

Are you suggesting there is no dividing line, no end point to separate what was being worked on as Smile from what was released as Smiley Smile? If so, then would that also suggest titling the box set "The Smile Sessions" was a mistake or a misnomer if there was no "Smile" project and it was just something that turned into the next album?
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« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2022, 03:33:46 PM »

Well, by "Smile", what exactly do you mean? What exact sequence of songs are you referring to, and what exact structure of each song?

The next album by the Beach Boys was never scrapped. It was continually changing. If you're asking if the exact moment Brian scrapped that list of 12 songs in favor of the 11 songs on Smiley Smile is known, well, that moment simply doesn't exist. We can know when lots of little changes were made, though. For example, Do You Like Worms was no longer a song by December 27, at the latest. The tape evidence suggests that the song had been chopped up on or before that date, with the chorus being removed to after the opening Heroes verse (where it would be "Heroes and Villains part 2" for the next month), and the verse was removed to the Prayer reel, where Da Da would immediately be recorded onto (it was possibly going to be used as an intro here). For another example, My Only Sunshine was no longer on the album by February 10, when Brian replaced the group vocals with his own voice, and used it as the fadeout to Heroes and Villains. Small little changes like these are traceable, as Smile turns from one thing into another. The album is a completely different entity in Brian's mind with each week, and to refuse to see it that way is to intentionally misunderstand Brian's working methods of the time.


None of the recordings made for Smile were used on Smiley Smile so that marks a clear delineation where Smile stopped and Smiley Smile started.  Love to Say Dada was not used on Smiley Smile and MAY have been the last thing recorded for Smile.  Cool Cool Water was not Love to Say Dada.  It was the first thing Brian wrote in his new house and was only merged with the chant from Love to Say Dada in January 1970 for Sunflower.


The scrapping of Smile and the plan for Smiley Smile (then unnamed) must have been discussed when the group returned from the tour and what Brian may have been referring to when Bruce suggested using the album they had in the can - he made a remark about a big argument.   

So we don't know the exact date but somewhere between 19th May and 6th June negations took place and an agreement reached.

Crucially the Beach Boys were given credit as producers even though Brian produced it.  That means a pay off - they got money for producing the album even though they didn't and as Steve Desper said Beach Boys politics is follow the money.  They didn't want Smile.  Brian took it off them and paid them for it with the credit and by using some of the material but mostly changed, and delivering the album really quickly which was vital because they were behind with contractual obligations and Capitol were not paying enough royalties.

Lots of this is false info, so I think some things should be clarified again -

First of all, the "Love to Say Da Da chant" was recorded under the title Cool, Cool Water, in Brian's home studio. It either comes from the main Smiley Smile period, or possibly later during Wild Honey.

Second, LTSDD and CCW are the same song musically, which was first written in December 1966. The chord progression is identical, though the lyrical subject matter has changed. But there's no significant difference between that change and say, the significant restructure Wind Chimes went through from August-October 1966, or the massive changes Child is Father of the Man went through, or the big change in tone Wonderful went through from December to January... not to mention Heroes & Villains being completely rewritten and re-recorded just about every week in January-March 1967. So why does the distinct project "Smile" have to be abandoned some time between these two recordings, both of which were recorded in L.A. studios outside of Brian's house, and neither of which appeared on the list of Smile songs from 1966 OR Smiley Smile? Where on EARTH did that bizarre theory come from, and why is it being repeated so often?

It should also be noted that the Heroes verse was recorded October 20, 1966, the chorus was recorded in February 1967, and the last few sections of Vegetables were recorded in April 1967. So, if there must be a distinct switch from one album to another, based on what material appears on Smiley, I guess Smile had to be scrapped before October 20? Or if we're counting Good Vibrations, before February 17, 1966, during the Pet Sounds era? Or perhaps, Smile/Smiley Smile was a flowing project that went through dozens of changes over time, and didn't become productive again until Brian started re-recording things in his house.
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« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2022, 04:18:41 PM »

No. Once again, two things are being discussed here, and are being confused as one. The next album by the Beach Boys was not scrapped, because, well, the Beach Boys released an album. What was initially planned to be on that album, was scrapped. Songs and titles and bits and pieces were being "scrapped" every day. At one point, with all the press and the excitement that was generated for the album, it would have to be clarified that the next album would not look like what was initially promised.

The "next album" the Beach Boys released had not even been started when Taylor's article appeared announcing the album had been scrapped. So when Carl Wilson said specifically "we started from scratch" to make Smiley Smile, was he wrong? Starting from scratch is not the same as reshaping and reworking the existing project into something new. And the change to Smiley Smile was obviously not planned too far in advance if they had to rent studio gear, have a rented Gates Dualux radio station mixing console on Brian's kitchen table among other places, and cables running across the floors of his new house in order to record there. That's where the 2 weeks immediately following the band's return from Europe become so key to the timeline and history, as that looks more like the exact time when they shifted gears dramatically.

Are you suggesting there is no dividing line, no end point to separate what was being worked on as Smile from what was released as Smiley Smile? If so, then would that also suggest titling the box set "The Smile Sessions" was a mistake or a misnomer if there was no "Smile" project and it was just something that turned into the next album?

No. Yet again, we are talking about different things, and confusing them for the same thing. Work on material that was to end up on the next Beach Boys album started as soon as Pet Sounds was done, and never stopped. What the album was called and what recordings were going to be on it changed significantly, just about every week. At one point, it was going to be something called Smile. At another, it was called Smiley Smile, and it ended up completely different from how it started, save for Good Vibrations, Heroes, Vegetables, and many of the songs themselves. Almost everything on Smiley Smile was completely done over from scratch. In fact, most songs were started over from scratch more than once before the home studio ever existed. There are some recordings that obviously belong to one era and not the other (Cabin Essence being worked on purely during the Smile era, and Little Pad being a home studio creation), but there is no exact dividing line between the two projects. One became the other. If there is a date that we can say we know the album would not have been the same, it is May 6, via the press release. However, we know that the project had changed significantly long before then, and would continue to change significantly until the album was assembled.

These are facts, and they are not contradictory. And none of these facts suggest that Brian added melodica, celeste, Baldwin organ, a children's choir, and a spoken section to Wonderful in order to make the records more closely resemble the bass-drums-guitar touring lineup.
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« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2022, 04:39:09 PM »

No. Once again, two things are being discussed here, and are being confused as one. The next album by the Beach Boys was not scrapped, because, well, the Beach Boys released an album. What was initially planned to be on that album, was scrapped. Songs and titles and bits and pieces were being "scrapped" every day. At one point, with all the press and the excitement that was generated for the album, it would have to be clarified that the next album would not look like what was initially promised.

The "next album" the Beach Boys released had not even been started when Taylor's article appeared announcing the album had been scrapped. So when Carl Wilson said specifically "we started from scratch" to make Smiley Smile, was he wrong? Starting from scratch is not the same as reshaping and reworking the existing project into something new. And the change to Smiley Smile was obviously not planned too far in advance if they had to rent studio gear, have a rented Gates Dualux radio station mixing console on Brian's kitchen table among other places, and cables running across the floors of his new house in order to record there. That's where the 2 weeks immediately following the band's return from Europe become so key to the timeline and history, as that looks more like the exact time when they shifted gears dramatically.

Are you suggesting there is no dividing line, no end point to separate what was being worked on as Smile from what was released as Smiley Smile? If so, then would that also suggest titling the box set "The Smile Sessions" was a mistake or a misnomer if there was no "Smile" project and it was just something that turned into the next album?

No. Yet again, we are talking about different things, and confusing them for the same thing. Work on material that was to end up on the next Beach Boys album started as soon as Pet Sounds was done, and never stopped. What the album was called and what recordings were going to be on it changed significantly, just about every week. At one point, it was going to be something called Smile. At another, it was called Smiley Smile, and it ended up completely different from how it started, save for Good Vibrations, Heroes, Vegetables, and many of the songs themselves. Almost everything on Smiley Smile was completely done over from scratch. In fact, most songs were started over from scratch more than once before the home studio ever existed. There are some recordings that obviously belong to one era and not the other (Cabin Essence being worked on purely during the Smile era, and Little Pad being a home studio creation), but there is no exact dividing line between the two projects. One became the other. If there is a date that we can say we know the album would not have been the same, it is May 6, via the press release. However, we know that the project had changed significantly long before then, and would continue to change significantly until the album was assembled.

These are facts, and they are not contradictory. And none of these facts suggest that Brian added melodica, celeste, Baldwin organ, a children's choir, and a spoken section to Wonderful in order to make the records more closely resemble the bass-drums-guitar touring lineup.

So the fact that the entire sound of the music changed dramatically, the way they recorded and more importantly where and with whom they recorded changed drastically, the production credit on the music changed, and it happened within a span of roughly 2 week at the end of May into June 1967 is of no consequence?

You cannot state as fact that there is or was no dividing line between the two projects when the band themselves and most fans who can easily listen to what was done for Smile versus what was "started from scratch" for Smiley Smile make that separation between the two, and in the band's case they're on the record since 1967 saying as much. If the band and the creators saw them as different projects, do you purport to know something the band didn't know and Smile just seamlessly flowed into Smiley Smile and there was no difference?

That's your opinion, and it's fine to have that opinion and stick to it, but when you have music for Smile which sounds that much different than what's on Smiley Smile, and when the creation of that music changed as dramatically as it did from April into May '67 going into June, it's obvious there was a drastic change that involved more than moving sections around and swapping songs in and out. They started a new project in June 1967 with new parameters and working methods, remaking certain songs and adding new ones. I don't know how more basic of an observation that can be.

I said this earlier in the discussion, and I'll say it again: Play 30 minutes of Smile music and then play the Smiley Smile album for some people, and see what the opinions are in terms of one blending into and becoming the other with no divide between them, or if they sound and feel like the same project. The overall sonic texture alone suggests exactly what Carl said in '67, and others have been saying since: They started from scratch on something new.
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« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2022, 04:51:17 PM »

And I highly doubt the band would have played "Wonderful" or even "Wind Chimes" live in 1967 touring to support the Smiley album had they toured behind it any more than they didn't play "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", "That's Not Me", or "You Still Believe In Me" when they were touring behind Pet Sounds, or "Let Him Run Wild" and "Amusement Parks USA" when they were touring behind the Summer Days LP. They mostly featured the singles and maybe one or two album cuts, as they would also do on the tours supporting Wild Honey, also notable that they added more musicians to the regular touring lineup even for those tours in 67-68.

The point about the sound of the records is being missed or ignored, I think. They got hammered in '67 for not sounding like the records, that's a fact, and the criticisms were published in various music papers in the UK and elsewhere. And unless it was pure coincidence rather than by design, the sound of their records changed noticeably and sounded less complex overall than they had in the past 2 years, they simplified their sound for the songs they would be playing live. That's not saying the recordings were not layered with sound, but the sound was different and less "studio" if that makes sense.
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« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2022, 04:55:23 PM »

Expanding on the question I asked earlier…  for whatever reason , in Jan 67 at some point it became all about getting a single out, right? Out of the songs that never got touched again from then until after May 1967 (in other words , before the scrapped announcement)… which of those songs were complete? Not something where the lead vocal was recorded two years later, or was stitched together five or more years later. Like, as of Dec 1966.

I admit, when it comes to the Smile era, I’ve never been that well versed in the ins and outs of the timeline . I love the music but I never dug that deep into the timeline past whatever info was available in the 90s and 2000s. Hell, until recently I was under the impression that the Fire incident was in 67 and was one of the things that killed Smile! sh*t, November? That’s not that far from Jan 67 . I’m not being sarcastic when I say that. But to me, being completely objective and embarrassingly admitting to being a putz in regards to this era ,  it seems like it pretty much died once Heroes became the focus. Parks leaving for good when he did wouldn’t be an issue if the songs were done…but if there was still more writing to be done, then there is no way in hell it was ever going to come out. So , truthfully , either Dec 66 is the cutoff, or when Parks left the second time.
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« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2022, 05:00:27 PM »

Quote
You cannot state as fact that there is or was no dividing line between the two projects when the band themselves and most fans who can easily listen to what was done for Smile versus what was "started from scratch" for Smiley Smile make that separation between the two, and in the band's case they're on the record since 1967 saying as much. If the band and the creators saw them as different projects, do you purport to know something the band didn't know and Smile just seamlessly flowed into Smiley Smile and there was no difference?

That's your opinion, and it's fine to have that opinion and stick to it, but when you have music for Smile which sounds that much different than what's on Smiley Smile, and when the creation of that music changed as dramatically as it did from April into May '67 going into June, it's obvious there was a drastic change that involved more than moving sections around and swapping songs in and out. They started a new project in June 1967 with new parameters and working methods, remaking certain songs and adding new ones. I don't know how more basic of an observation that can be.


You're putting too much weight into the band's perceptions and giving fans too much power.  I would also say that the compulsion to think of Smile as its own, isolated phenomenon is to project a sort of Aristotelean hylomorphism onto this whole thing, when we're really playing a completely nominalist game.  There is simply no need to limit any particular recording to one absolute ontology; Wouldn't it Be Nice is part of Pet Sounds just as much as it it part of Stack-o-tracks.  Wonderful can be part of Smile just as much as it can be part of Smiley Smile.  Cabin Essence can be just as much a part of Dumb Angel as it was part of Smile.

In a sense, yes, we do know something different than the band did.  Unlike the band, we have a pretty nice set of retrospective data to analyze with the benefit of many extra years of context.  We can know exactly when Cabin Essence was no longer a candidate for the new album, for example.  We can track with a lot of accuracy the evolution of Heroes, seeing how different ideas were cannibalized in pursuit of a single, and how other songs were left behind as Brian demonstrably lost interest in them.

I think another major fallacy here is some kind of species of the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; here, where one wrongly ascribes the change in sound to a deliberate delineation between one project and another, rather than attributing the change in sound to the change in sound per se that Brian was working towards all along.  It's that darned Baldwin organ; it's such a dramatically different sound that dominates the texture -- but if you take that away, it's, in my opinion, patently obvious that Brian was continually working incrementally towards reduced orchestration and simplified song structures.

I spend a lot of time transcribing the Beach Boys arrangements, and I think if I put up, say, the transcription of Wonderful Mark I, and the transcription of Wonderful as it came out on Smiley, you could see visually that the released version is more heavily orchestrated and more complexly structured than Mark I.

My point there is simply that swapping a harpsichord for a Baldwin does not automatically make something and less or more simple.

Incidentally, if anybody wants to see those Wonderful Transcriptions, I would share them.
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2022, 05:06:32 PM »

I think that the changing texture is of major consequence! This entire era is my favorite to study for many reasons, and that's one of them. Once Brian gets comfortable in his new studio setup, and begins using the Baldwin, the detuned grand, and other tools rather consistently, the recordings really gel with another, and it makes sense that the album didn't really get going until a general sound was found. I just happen to disagree that there's an exact moment where it all changes. When you say 30 minutes of Smile music, do you mean stuff like Cabin Essence, the bigger Heroes sections, Good Vibrations, My Only Sunshine, and other big productions? Or material like Cantina, the early Da Da, Vega-Tables, bridge to indians, mission pak, the Worms chorus, or other sections that involve just piano and vocals?

It's a wonderful bag of varied music, but there's a slow, gradual change toward the more intimate sound of Smiley, if you look at things chronologically. Vegetables in April had one session that involved an ensemble of session players - the rest was just a few keyboards and an upright! If you still think Brian couldn't have possibly cancelled the album called Smile until after he... cancelled the album called Smile... here's a list of the next few recordings that he did from scratch (not including overdubs to the Heroes verse and chorus, or Vegetables sections from April, which were done during this time period):

Love To Say Da Da (Part 1) - grand piano, tack piano, 6-string bass, bass, temple blocks, drums
Love To Say Da Da (Part 2) - grand piano, Hammond organ, electric guitars, 6-string bass, bass, drums, claves, clarinets, vocals
Love To Say Da Da (Second Day) - grand piano, upright piano, acoustic guitar, 6-string bass, upright bass, bongos, mark tree, piccolos
You're With Me Tonight (Version 1) - 2 electric basses, vocals
You're With Me Tonight (Version 2) - harpsichord, vocals
You're With Me Tonight (Version 3) - bass, upright bass, harpsichord, snaps, claps, vocals
Cool, Cool Water - harpsichord, vocals
Heroes And Villains: Children Were Raised - electric harpsichord, organ, vocals
Heroes And Villains: Barbershop - vocals
Vegetables (Unused Attempt) - grand piano, organ, bass
Vegetables - bass, tuned water jugs, celery, vocals
Little Pad - grand piano, organ, steel guitar, marimba, claves, ukulele, sound effects, vocals

Where exactly is the major change, after which things sounded nothing like anything they'd done before? It has to be exactly between 2 of these, right? Keep in mind that most of the stuff Brian had done until this point was not much more than piano and vocals for the past few months.
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2022, 05:09:24 PM »

And to get back to what this was originally about - when exactly in this list does the music become "reproduceable" by the touring band, where it wasn't before?
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« Reply #165 on: July 23, 2022, 05:18:53 PM »

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You cannot state as fact that there is or was no dividing line between the two projects when the band themselves and most fans who can easily listen to what was done for Smile versus what was "started from scratch" for Smiley Smile make that separation between the two, and in the band's case they're on the record since 1967 saying as much. If the band and the creators saw them as different projects, do you purport to know something the band didn't know and Smile just seamlessly flowed into Smiley Smile and there was no difference?

That's your opinion, and it's fine to have that opinion and stick to it, but when you have music for Smile which sounds that much different than what's on Smiley Smile, and when the creation of that music changed as dramatically as it did from April into May '67 going into June, it's obvious there was a drastic change that involved more than moving sections around and swapping songs in and out. They started a new project in June 1967 with new parameters and working methods, remaking certain songs and adding new ones. I don't know how more basic of an observation that can be.


You're putting too much weight into the band's perceptions and giving fans too much power.  I would also say that the compulsion to think of Smile as its own, isolated phenomenon is to project a sort of Aristotelean hylomorphism onto this whole thing, when we're really playing a completely nominalist game.  There is simply no need to limit any particular recording to one absolute ontology; Wouldn't it Be Nice is part of Pet Sounds just as much as it it part of Stack-o-tracks.  Wonderful can be part of Smile just as much as it can be part of Smiley Smile.  Cabin Essence can be just as much a part of Dumb Angel as it was part of Smile.

In a sense, yes, we do know something different than the band did.  Unlike the band, we have a pretty nice set of retrospective data to analyze with the benefit of many extra years of context.  We can know exactly when Cabin Essence was no longer a candidate for the new album, for example.  We can track with a lot of accuracy the evolution of Heroes, seeing how different ideas were cannibalized in pursuit of a single, and how other songs were left behind as Brian demonstrably lost interest in them.

I think another major fallacy here is some kind of species of the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; here, where one wrongly ascribes the change in sound to a deliberate delineation between one project and another, rather than attributing the change in sound to the change in sound per se that Brian was working towards all along.  It's that darned Baldwin organ; it's such a dramatically different sound that dominates the texture -- but if you take that away, it's, in my opinion, patently obvious that Brian was continually working incrementally towards reduced orchestration and simplified song structures.

I spend a lot of time transcribing the Beach Boys arrangements, and I think if I put up, say, the transcription of Wonderful Mark I, and the transcription of Wonderful as it came out on Smiley, you could see visually that the released version is more heavily orchestrated and more complexly structured than Mark I.

My point there is simply that swapping a harpsichord for a Baldwin does not automatically make something and less or more simple.

Incidentally, if anybody wants to see those Wonderful Transcriptions, I would share them.

All music, all art in general is subject to the power of the "fans" and those who will experience and form opinions and perceptions about what they're experiencing. If the creator of the art says "I wanted to portray a deer running through the woods in this piece" and fans say "the artist was portraying a train racing through a mountain pass", which one gets more weight? Once the artist hands off the work to the public, it's subject to their perceptions and opinions of the work as much as what the artist may have intended.

The dividing line, when perhaps it goes too far, is when fans insist that artist was portraying a train in the mountains as a factual statement after the artist said specifically they were portraying a deer in the woods when they created the work. That's where the fan doesn't have more power because they're perceiving rather than actually creating the work, but if their opinion becomes internalized (and expressed) as fact in direct contradiction with the artist's own words, the balance of power becomes arrogance of opinion more than experiencing the work as it was intended by the artist.

Suggesting people listen to a half hour of Smile and then the Smiley Smile album and offer their perceptions of the overall sound and texture of the two is not giving any one element more weight over the other. It's simply asking for opinions and perceptions when comparing two works from the same artist created within the same year.

Not to editorialize, I'd rather hear the opinions firsthand and as new opinions, but the majority of people who have heard Smile and Smiley Smile through the last decades when both were made available have said one sounds more stripped down, lo fi, and less complex than the other. Is that like the fictional artist's fans saying he portrayed a train versus a deer, or is it fans giving their honest appraisal of what they hear and perceive? If those fans hear the two examples, Smile versus Smiley Smile, as two separate entities rather than a continuation of the same project, they would be in agreement with the artists who created the music in 1966-67.
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« Reply #166 on: July 23, 2022, 05:34:34 PM »

I think that the changing texture is of major consequence! This entire era is my favorite to study for many reasons, and that's one of them. Once Brian gets comfortable in his new studio setup, and begins using the Baldwin, the detuned grand, and other tools rather consistently, the recordings really gel with another, and it makes sense that the album didn't really get going until a general sound was found. I just happen to disagree that there's an exact moment where it all changes. When you say 30 minutes of Smile music, do you mean stuff like Cabin Essence, the bigger Heroes sections, Good Vibrations, My Only Sunshine, and other big productions? Or material like Cantina, the early Da Da, Vega-Tables, bridge to indians, mission pak, the Worms chorus, or other sections that involve just piano and vocals?

It's a wonderful bag of varied music, but there's a slow, gradual change toward the more intimate sound of Smiley, if you look at things chronologically. Vegetables in April had one session that involved an ensemble of session players - the rest was just a few keyboards and an upright! If you still think Brian couldn't have possibly cancelled the album called Smile until after he... cancelled the album called Smile... here's a list of the next few recordings that he did from scratch (not including overdubs to the Heroes verse and chorus, or Vegetables sections from April, which were done during this time period):

Love To Say Da Da (Part 1) - grand piano, tack piano, 6-string bass, bass, temple blocks, drums
Love To Say Da Da (Part 2) - grand piano, Hammond organ, electric guitars, 6-string bass, bass, drums, claves, clarinets, vocals
Love To Say Da Da (Second Day) - grand piano, upright piano, acoustic guitar, 6-string bass, upright bass, bongos, mark tree, piccolos
You're With Me Tonight (Version 1) - 2 electric basses, vocals
You're With Me Tonight (Version 2) - harpsichord, vocals
You're With Me Tonight (Version 3) - bass, upright bass, harpsichord, snaps, claps, vocals
Cool, Cool Water - harpsichord, vocals
Heroes And Villains: Children Were Raised - electric harpsichord, organ, vocals
Heroes And Villains: Barbershop - vocals
Vegetables (Unused Attempt) - grand piano, organ, bass
Vegetables - bass, tuned water jugs, celery, vocals
Little Pad - grand piano, organ, steel guitar, marimba, claves, ukulele, sound effects, vocals

Where exactly is the major change, after which things sounded nothing like anything they'd done before? It has to be exactly between 2 of these, right? Keep in mind that most of the stuff Brian had done until this point was not much more than piano and vocals for the past few months.

Those are good points, yes. I think one of the major differences is that most of the Smile recordings, or those recordings prior to June 1967, were recorded in professional studios with very well made, well-maintained equipment. Brian was going for advancement in recorded sound as much as he was trying new compositional techniques and unorthodox harmony and chord progressions in the genre he was in: pop music. The sound of the instrumentation itself will be radically different when you record instruments in a professional studio which was constructed and designed specifically for high-level acoustics and reflections. When you go from some of the best live rooms ever designed to a living room, and when you go from two studios with some of the finest echo chambers ever built to using an empty swimming pool as an echo chamber, the difference will be blatantly clear even to people who don't have trained ears for recorded sound. When you do group vocals in a grand studio like Columbia, then do group vocals in a living room and a shower stall, there will be a huge difference in sound. And when you go from using some of the finest working studio players in LA playing professionally maintained instruments to tapping basic beats on a bongo drum, playing "found" objects, and replacing a woodwind section with a Baldwin organ, people will notice it.

Also, and this one I think is huge in terms of comparing Smile to Smiley Smile, Brian's fastball was always how his group vocals sounded, how they were arranged, recorded, and mixed. Notice how Smiley Smile has plenty of group vocals, but they're almost all recorded "dry". Compared to his previous productions, they could be called "bone dry". When you alter a signature sound to that extent, and remove most of the wide reverbs, tape delays, and other appointments that cut through AM radio broadcasts and cheap record players, and replace it with dry vocals recorded in a dead room, it's removing one of the sonic hooks you've become known for.

It's a pretty radical shift, and all those things combined will absolutely change the texture and overall sonic imprint of any recording in comparison to previous releases. With Smiley Smile, the change was so drastic it's almost ridiculous to put Good Vibrations on Smiley, it sounds like two different bands entirely. The one at the height of recorded sound and production, and the other recording in a house.
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #167 on: July 23, 2022, 05:38:26 PM »

But can you tell between which exact 2 recordings listed here that that change was made? Or exactly which vocals were recorded in a swimming pool? Where is this sudden shift, if it's so sudden, and how exactly did it help live performances become easier?
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« Reply #168 on: July 23, 2022, 05:48:15 PM »

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Also, and this one I think is huge in terms of comparing Smile to Smiley Smile, Brian's fastball was always how his group vocals sounded, how they were arranged, recorded, and mixed. Notice how Smiley Smile has plenty of group vocals, but they're almost all recorded "dry". Compared to his previous productions, they could be called "bone dry". When you alter a signature sound to that extent, and remove most of the wide reverbs, tape delays, and other appointments that cut through AM radio broadcasts and cheap record players, and replace it with dry vocals recorded in a dead room, it's removing one of the sonic hooks you've become known for.

That's true, when you compare the Smiley vocals to, lets say, the Cabinessence vocals, or the Surf's Up vocals, or especially the Do You Like Worms vocals, you can tell that they are much drier -- totally different sound.  Even on more subtle examples like the Fire vocals, or the Friday Night/I Wanna be Around vocals are produced in a totally different way than the vocals on Smiley.
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« Reply #169 on: July 23, 2022, 05:51:05 PM »

And to get back to what this was originally about - when exactly in this list does the music become "reproduceable" by the touring band, where it wasn't before?

But can you tell between which exact 2 recordings listed here that that change was made? Or exactly which vocals were recorded in a swimming pool? Where is this sudden shift, if it's so sudden, and how exactly did it help live performances become easier?

You'll have to ask the fans and the writers who were hammering the band in 1967 what they heard in the band's live performances that didn't sound enough like the records. If you make projects more of a band effort, have the same guys on stage that were recording the music as well as the vocals, and have less complex studio creations like Good Vibrations and Heroes (more in some of its original forms) that relied on technology and the recording studio itself as an instrument, it might help bridge the gap and please more of those fans who were complaining.

I think it came to a more full fruition with Wild Honey. The band was able to supplement the stage lineup with outside musicians on tour, play the singles and key tracks they needed to in promoting the album on tour, and it sounded pretty close to what fans heard on the record.  The band, honestly, never toured the Smiley material when the album was new. Most of the proof we have of what it might have been is on the Hawaii tapes. Heroes sounded thin and empty compared to the single, and the other single which would be "Gettin Hungry" a few weeks after the shows actually sounded very close to the record itself. They didn't tackle any other material from Smiley, and didn't tour again until October '67 on a mini tour where they didn't play any Smiley tracks.

I think the concept of stripping things down was definitely there for Smiley, you can hear it. But they never really toured to promote the album, and by the time they did go on a more fully-fledged tour, they were promoting Wild Honey. The concept was never executed on stage - except in Hawaii - so that's the only proof we can actually hear.
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« Reply #170 on: July 23, 2022, 05:54:36 PM »

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Also, and this one I think is huge in terms of comparing Smile to Smiley Smile, Brian's fastball was always how his group vocals sounded, how they were arranged, recorded, and mixed. Notice how Smiley Smile has plenty of group vocals, but they're almost all recorded "dry". Compared to his previous productions, they could be called "bone dry". When you alter a signature sound to that extent, and remove most of the wide reverbs, tape delays, and other appointments that cut through AM radio broadcasts and cheap record players, and replace it with dry vocals recorded in a dead room, it's removing one of the sonic hooks you've become known for.

That's true, when you compare the Smiley vocals to, lets say, the Cabinessence vocals, or the Surf's Up vocals, or especially the Do You Like Worms vocals, you can tell that they are much drier -- totally different sound.  Even on more subtle examples like the Fire vocals, or the Friday Night/I Wanna be Around vocals are produced in a totally different way than the vocals on Smiley.

One of the main sonic hooks of the band's sound, the vocals, group vocals, and how they were recorded, was radically different going from the Smile sessions to Smiley Smile. It's one of the most notable and noticeable differences. Like Coca Cola changing to New Coke, it totally changed the brand's identity.
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« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2022, 06:00:28 PM »

Craig...  you do know that they didn't record (or keep, anyway) many group vocals for Smile, right?  And that Mark added reverb to the extant vocals in his 2011 mixes?  How can you possibly compare a finished album with a largely background vocal-less unfinished album?

Quote
You'll have to ask the fans and the writers who were hammering the band in 1967 what they heard in the band's live performances that didn't sound enough like the records.

He's asking you!  If you assert it, you have to have an answer.  I'm also curious if you have a collection of the contemporary materials that derided the band's on-stage sound?  I don't doubt that there were some comments, but I'm concerned that you're overselling the "hammered in the press" thing.  Not that it matters in the slightest to the argument, but I would be edified by seeing an example of the band getting hammered.
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« Reply #172 on: July 23, 2022, 06:06:45 PM »

Craig...  you do know that they didn't record (or keep, anyway) many group vocals for Smile, right?  And that Mark added reverb to the extant vocals in his 2011 mixes?  How can you possibly compare a finished album with a largely background vocal-less unfinished album?

Quote
You'll have to ask the fans and the writers who were hammering the band in 1967 what they heard in the band's live performances that didn't sound enough like the records.

He's asking you!  If you assert it, you have to have an answer.  I'm also curious if you have a collection of the contemporary materials that derided the band's on-stage sound?  I don't doubt that there were some comments, but I'm concerned that you're overselling the "hammered in the press" thing.  Not that it matters in the slightest to the argument, but I would be edified by seeing an example of the band getting hammered.

I meant the vocal sound they had previously that became their trademark going back to at least 1964. I also said vocals and group vocals referring to Smile, referring obviously to what did exist. And I also explained in detail the differences in instrumentation too. Most of my Smile listening came well before the 2011 box set BTW, so I'm not referencing reverb or other sonic traits added digitally on later releases.

I gave an answer, and in detail too. Why would I base a comparison on album tracks they'd never perform live anyway? And I'm being honest, I wasn't at any of the shows, I don't know what exactly they were complaining about, but there were complaints.

I'll find a few examples for you.
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« Reply #173 on: July 23, 2022, 06:09:10 PM »

Also, and this one I think is huge in terms of comparing Smile to Smiley Smile, Brian's fastball was always how his group vocals sounded, how they were arranged, recorded, and mixed. Notice how Smiley Smile has plenty of group vocals, but they're almost all recorded "dry". Compared to his previous productions, they could be called "bone dry". When you alter a signature sound to that extent, and remove most of the wide reverbs, tape delays, and other appointments that cut through AM radio broadcasts and cheap record players, and replace it with dry vocals recorded in a dead room, it's removing one of the sonic hooks you've become known for.

It's a pretty radical shift, and all those things combined will absolutely change the texture and overall sonic imprint of any recording in comparison to previous releases. With Smiley Smile, the change was so drastic it's almost ridiculous to put Good Vibrations on Smiley, it sounds like two different bands entirely. The one at the height of recorded sound and production, and the other recording in a house.

Great thoughts. I think this is one of the things that has always bugged me about the Smiley Smile album... the vocals and overall sound are just really lifeless. Even an album like Love You, recorded well past their prime as a vocal group, has much more sheen and richness to the sound.

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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #174 on: July 23, 2022, 06:14:10 PM »

And to get back to what this was originally about - when exactly in this list does the music become "reproduceable" by the touring band, where it wasn't before?

But can you tell between which exact 2 recordings listed here that that change was made? Or exactly which vocals were recorded in a swimming pool? Where is this sudden shift, if it's so sudden, and how exactly did it help live performances become easier?

You'll have to ask the fans and the writers who were hammering the band in 1967 what they heard in the band's live performances that didn't sound enough like the records. If you make projects more of a band effort, have the same guys on stage that were recording the music as well as the vocals, and have less complex studio creations like Good Vibrations and Heroes (more in some of its original forms) that relied on technology and the recording studio itself as an instrument, it might help bridge the gap and please more of those fans who were complaining.

So, the fans and critics were complaining so hard about the drums-bass-guitar band not sounding like the record, that not only did it completely derail the project, but it forced the band to record music that sounded closer to the touring band.

So Brian removed most of the bass and guitar from his productions, and all of the drums. He based all the new arrangements around his Baldwin organ and Chickering grand piano, neither of which were used by the touring band. He added melodica, found percussion, children's choirs, and various sound effects to the songs, made the tempos freer, and generally complicated the chord progressions and vocal arrangements.

The Beach Boys were using the studio as an instrument too much so he... enlisted the help of engineers to create new studio techniques (the pitched-but-not-sped-up She's Goin' Bald vocals) and increased the dynamic contrast between the hard-edited sections of songs?

Songs like Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains were too hard, so... both songs were included on the album? And the verse section of Heroes, which is Smile at its Spectorian peak, had even more instruments overdubbed, and a more involved vocal arrangement...

All for the Beach Boys to not play any new songs from the album live, besides Gettin' Hungry, which only sounds like the record because... Brian needed to bring his Baldwin to Hawaii if the band wanted him to go. They played it 2 nights in a row and then never again.

Do you see how this theory, as interesting as it sounds, makes absolutely zero sense?

Also, how many critics can you name that came at the band with this exact complaint?
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