gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680597 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 02:51:42 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 21 Go Down Print
Author Topic: SMiLE was ready in 1967 - discuss  (Read 37198 times)
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 206


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2022, 03:39:17 PM »

Brian's first mono mix of Wonderful from October 6 was labeled as a master.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2022, 06:51:08 PM »

I absolutely believe some heavy, heavy discussions took place in those last weeks in May '67 that radically changed the course of the music, in nearly every way possible. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Beach Boys had just returned from that tour, and that Brian was still working on Smile music, using his Smile working methods in the studio, and then just like that it all changed. That includes everything about Brian's process of recording music which he had been doing for the last 2 years.

Factor in too that there were reports of a major blow-out style meeting/argument at the end of December '66 among the family-slash-band. Unfortunately, like the May '67 time period, few details of what actually happened have been made public and probably never will. But it could be suggested that the directions Brian was going changed in January 1967 too from what they had been. Not nearly as drastic as May into June 67, but still a change to be noticed. Listen to the January '67 sessions and just how many fragments and pieces labeled under the "Heroes" umbrella were done, versus what seemed to be a pretty focused working method he had going in Fall '66. Not to mention the way some absolutely beautiful, stunning tracks from Fall 66 were given reworkings or even, I'd suggest, sabotaged to make them less poignant and more "comical". And others just sat on the shelf waiting.

Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2022, 07:12:05 PM »

I know it was controversial in the past to suggest this, but I stand by this theory: When the band returned from Europe, they were getting roasted in the music press by reviews and articles suggesting their stage show did not sound enough like the records. Insult to injury, they had even traveled with extra musicians, at a much higher cost, to supplement the core band but had issues getting those musicians to even play because of some silly union rules.

When the Boys returned to the US that May, Brian was still recording Smile. The Derek Taylor announcement, I think, was either premature or simply wrong when it was published. So the Boys return, upset at the criticism and here's Brian still recording tracks which could not be reproduced on the stage. There are possibly arguments, finger pointing, anger, etc.

I think Brian, in some ways, fell on the sword on this one. A compromise had to be reached, and one of the main points could have been returning to making music which a self-contained band could reproduce on stage. That way the records and the stage show would be one and the same, as far as the overall sound. To do this, they stripped everything down. They would apply this "new sound" to some of their biggest hits of the past 2 years, which were pretty grand studio productions featuring larger studio ensembles, and a majority of instruments not played by the actual Beach Boys. The stage band, the core band as it were, would be more involved in the process. They would make records more as a core band rather than adding vocals to backing tracks Brian had created.

That's the theory at least, but it explains why things got changed so radically in multiple aspects of the process.

The proof? Listen to what the band actually did from summer '67 into Fall '67. Smiley Smile, the revamped and less densely orchestrated Heroes, the Hawaii shows, etc. Hawaii especially showed this new sound perfectly. They gave their recent hits the "Smiley Smile" treatment, made them more mellow, stripped down, organic, etc. No one knew whether "Smiley Smile" or the "new sound" would be a hit, because it had not come out yet. It could be a massive hit that the public embraced, or it could fall flat...no one knew. But here, at least in Hawaii and perhaps thinking beyond that into the Fall tour season, was a stage band sounding like the records.

I think it was a compromise. Brian was tired of the hassles from within (for proof, listen to Marilyn's interview in the Don Was doc and other sources...he was tired of arguing with them). In Hawaii, in one newspaper interview, he's even suggesting he doesn't know how long the Beach Boys will be around, and does not sound positive. Here, then, was a chance to bring everyone back home as a core band, involved in the records, and sporting a new sound that was radically different from the Beatles who were leading the way at this time.

That solved the Beach Boys problem for now. So what did Brian do outside the Beach Boys? He continues to record using his Smile methods, shown most prominently in Redwood and "Time To Get Alone". Large studio ensembles, some pretty avant garde ideas, and a general feeling that this was closer to what he was doing on Smile instead of what he was doing with The Beach Boys. And he's also doing Smile-like tracks like Been Way Too Long, Cool Cool Water, and later in the fall even a revisit of "Surf's Up", perhaps the keystone track of the entire Smile project. Yet for the Beach Boys, after he got called back to produce them for a Wild Honey album, he was doing stripped down R&B. And the album produced was under 30 minutes long. Hardly the scope of Smile, right?

It's difficult not to think a compromise was made when you actually hear the output of the band in the 6 months or so following the group's return from Europe in May '67. Then compare that to what Brian was doing outside the Beach Boys at this same time.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 206


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2022, 07:29:55 PM »

When the Boys returned to the US that May, Brian was still recording Smile. The Derek Taylor announcement, I think, was either premature or simply wrong when it was published. So the Boys return, upset at the criticism and here's Brian still recording tracks which could not be reproduced on the stage. There are possibly arguments, finger pointing, anger, etc.

I'm extremely confused... you think that the Beach Boys accidentally announced that their new album was scrapped, and then happened to scrap the new album later? All because Love to Say Da Da has clarinets instead of melodicas and children's choirs? The latter being somehow easier to reproduce on stage?

Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2022, 07:39:27 PM »

When the Boys returned to the US that May, Brian was still recording Smile. The Derek Taylor announcement, I think, was either premature or simply wrong when it was published. So the Boys return, upset at the criticism and here's Brian still recording tracks which could not be reproduced on the stage. There are possibly arguments, finger pointing, anger, etc.

I'm extremely confused... you think that the Beach Boys accidentally announced that their new album was scrapped, and then happened to scrap the new album later? All because Love to Say Da Da has clarinets instead of melodicas and children's choirs? The latter being somehow easier to reproduce on stage?

Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh

The album itself, according to multiple interviews with Carl, Dennis, and even Mike from this time period, was never scrapped. Each of them went on the record saying it was still very much "alive" and would probably be coming out in some form. I've posted relevant quotes and sources for that on this board previously, I can easily pull up those links.

So either the band was outright lying to the interviewers for whatever reasons they had, or the announcement of it being "scrapped" wasn't quite the truth when it was published.

I think you're incorrectly focusing solely on the "DaDa" track from May '67, that just happened to be the track Brian was working on at that time and not indicative of the majority of the other Smile material he was working on since Fall '66. But take the "Dada" example for this question: Did Brian use those studios, those Wrecking Crew musicians, and go for that same kind of production with the Beach Boys after that track? No, until some of the Friends sessions. But he did use those same methods, same musicians, same larger ensembles, and an external studio (Heider) when he worked with Redwood. Is that a coincidence? "Dada" was the last example of the way Brian was recording Smile, Pet Sounds, and much of what he recorded in '65 minus the Party album.

Edit to add, as mentioned earlier in this thread there were also the Capitol memos stating the song titles on the Smile cover tracklist not on Smiley Smile would be coming out later, and this was as of late July '67. It never materialized, obviously, but clearly if Capitol had a memo stating the tracks would be released in the future, Derek Taylor's press release saying the entire thing had been scrapped didn't seem to match what Capitol was being told two months after Taylor's announcement.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 07:53:12 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 206


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2022, 08:11:17 PM »

.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 08:12:23 PM by sloopjohnb72 » Logged
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 206


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2022, 08:12:06 PM »

"Did Brian use those studios, those Wrecking Crew musicians, and go for that same kind of production with the Beach Boys after that track?"


Yes, yes, and yes.

If by "those studios" you mean Gold Star, then no, Love to Say Da Da was really the last time he worked there. But if you mean the general Hollywood studio scene, then yes, there were a few sessions at Sound Recorders and Western before Brian's home studio became the home base for the next project.

Chuck Berghofer, although not present on Da Da, was a wrecking crew musician who did a few sessions for the Beach Boys after this. It's not much but, look at what came before Da Da... Vegetables, which, beyond the elaborate fade section (which came halfway into the song's production), only used one session musician - Chuck Berghofer. And for months before that? Bridge to Indians, Mission Pak, Tag to Part 1, Cantina, Piano Theme, Whistling Bridge, all the chants... these feature vocals with no instrumental accompaniment, a single piano, or a piano + 1 or 2 extra instruments. Again, there wasn't a sudden change, but a general shift from track complexity to vocal complexity from October-July, with countermelodies being given more to singers than players, which was a gradual change, over months and months of Brian's music making. Once Brian got into a groove with his home studio recordings, he started to play everything himself.

And what are we classifying as "same kind of production"? From the start of Smile to the end of Smiley Smile, I hear Brian's production shifting toward this:

- songs recorded in sections, which often contradict each other in feel or style
- a focus on humor, darkness, and beauty, all at once sometimes
- a continuing shift toward vocal complexity, with countermelodies being given more often to singers than to instrumentalists
- lots of hard splices within songs
- group harmonies recorded together, with tighter parts and more unison
- backing tracks often limited to just a piano and a few more instruments

What is consistently there up to Da Da that suddenly drops off? What am I missing?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 08:12:49 PM by sloopjohnb72 » Logged
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 206


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2022, 08:19:57 PM »

And again, how exactly is ANYTHING on Smiley Smile easier to reproduce on stage? Why would the Beach Boys get mad at Brian because they couldn't reproduce clarinets and flutes in a concert, and then happily accept songs with 4 different keyboards and a children's choir overdubbed?
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2022, 08:41:24 PM »

Consider this question: How would The Beach Boys, the core band, reproduce the Smile version ("cantina" version, the Chuck Britz edit) of Heroes on stage? How would they reproduce the Smile version of Vegetables on stage? And consider not just the instruments and sound, but playing the song and arrangement itself. They're studio creations, like Good Vibrations, etc. And the press and fans in some circles were hammering the band because they didn't sound like the records. It's like the Beatles trying to reproduce "Tomorrow Never Knows" or Penny Lane on stage, and obviously they just stopped touring so it was never an issue.

If you make it a self-contained unit, and have the guys who are on the records also on stage (as it was before 1964 for the most part), it becomes a little less of an issue. And Good Vibrations will probably come up as an argument, but consider that record may have been one specific that had fans and the critics saying the stage show didn't sound like the record. Those reviews were hurting the band.

I think you're still missing the point by focusing too much on Dada and the clarinets. For one, ok so Chuck Berghofer was on sessions after Smile and so was Jim Gordon and so was whoever else, but it was nothing like what Brian had been doing throughout 65-66-67 up to "DaDa" on Beach Boys records where the majority of those tracks (and especially the singles) were being recorded in the studio by session musicians, and larger groups of them. DaDa stands as the last Beach Boys track that had that same working method, whether Berghofer played later or not. The only sessions to resemble Brian's previous method of recording were the Redwood sessions. Again, is that a coincidence that when Brian was removed from the Beach Boys, he did what he had been doing prior to May '67 in the studio?

He simply did not use the groups of musicians he had previously as consistently nor in as large of an ensemble as he had been doing. It was all stripped down, and having a session bass player and drummer in on some Wild Honey tracks is laughably nothing like having 10-15 session players in the same room regularly.

Also, regarding DaDa again: Realistically would the stage band have played that anyway for a live show? Probably not, no more than they played most of the Pet Sounds album on the 66-67 tours minus the singles. And there's another key point to consider: The singles, or proposed singles, from the Smile project were pretty lavish, complex compositions and song constructions as they originally were recorded. Just compare how the songs were stripped down from Smile to Smiley, not just in sonics but also in song form and flow. They were easier to perform in their Smiley versions than they had been earlier. And look at how "Gettin Hungry", the actual single next to Heroes, sounded in Hawaii. It sounds pretty damn close to what it sounds like on Smiley. Coincidence?
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2022, 08:47:38 PM »

And again, how exactly is ANYTHING on Smiley Smile easier to reproduce on stage? Why would the Beach Boys get mad at Brian because they couldn't reproduce clarinets and flutes in a concert, and then happily accept songs with 4 different keyboards and a children's choir overdubbed?

Just listen to the songs, consider they most likely wouldn't be playing the full album start to finish any more than they had done with their previous albums, and consider the spotlight tracks which would have been the singles that would be more likely candidates for the band's live setlist. Gettin Hungry, Vegetables, the Smiley Heroes, and even With Me Tonight let's say are far less complex, far simpler arrangements, and feature a much more stripped down instrumentation and sound than anything on Smile, and surely moreso than the 1966 tracks which they were getting hammered about in the press because they didn't sound like the records.

Just listen to the Hawaii concerts, both shows, and it's like hearing the Smiley Smile sound live on stage, including California Girls and Help Me Rhonda which received new arrangements and different feels for the "new sound" on display in Hawaii.

To say The Beach Boys were mad at Brian because they couldn't reproduce flutes and clarinets on stage is too much of an oversimplification of what's being discussed, it's missing the larger issues entirely. 
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 206


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2022, 09:01:33 PM »

Just compare how the songs were stripped down from Smile to Smiley, not just in sonics but also in song form and flow.

Sure: Heroes on Smiley has the same number of sections, and some parts of the song have more instruments than sections in the Cantina edit. Both edits use the main "wall of sound" verse section, although the cantina edit only uses 2.5 of these verses, while the June edit uses 3. The part 2 bridge section (Cantina, then Chorus) goes from piano and mandolin to electric harpsichord, piano, various percussion, and organ. Children Were Raised goes from just a piano to electric harpsichord and organ. The "flow" of both edit is very musical, which doesn't make either version a more difficult performance. And neither version of the song, nor any song on Smiley Smile, was played on the fall 1967 tour.

Compare how Wonderful was "stripped down" from Smile to Smiley: Instead of 2 keyboards playing similar parts, we have 4 different textures (piano, organ, melodica, and celeste) all playing against each other, and a bridge section in a completely different tempo which comes after a long pause. No version of Wonderful was added to the live set.

Going from April Vegetables to June Vegetables: Instead of a single piano and bass, it's now a bass and carefully tuned containers of water. A very simple song, not made much simpler. In October 1966, it was just a piano. The April verse shows up at the end anyways, with yet another keyboard. No version of Vegetables was added to the live set.

If Brian was trying to make it easy for the guys to do these songs, and that was the entire reason for scrapping the album called "Smile" (after accidentally predicting the future in a press release anyways), he wasn't doing a good job... and they didn't even end up performing them.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2022, 09:14:24 PM »

They performed "Heroes" and "Gettin Hungry" in Hawaii. Those were the lead singles from the Smiley album. Heroes sounded very thin and weak, Gettin Hungry sounded almost like the record. As I just said, the chances they'd perform the whole album were very slim, if nonexistent, anyway because no band on the road in '67 played their full album at a live show. That was never an issue. What other Pet Sounds tracks did they play in '66 and '67 besides the three singles? The sound of the Smiley tracks is more streamlined, less loaded with sound and parts on the surface, and yes that sound does contradict how much work was actually done on the Smiley album. My previous term for it was "deceptively simple", where it sounds more basic than it is. But how many fans in 1967 listening on a cheap record player would pick out how many harpsichord tracks are on a given song? It's not as prominent as, say, the original Smile's "Wind Chimes".

To simplify it a bit, when The Beatles made music in the studio which were 100% studio creations not designed or created to perform live, they not only didn't play those songs live, but they stopped touring entirely in August '66. When Brian was taking the art of making music in and for the recording studio to an even higher level than he had on Pet Sounds, where did that leave the live band and any plans to perform this music on stage as the mostly self-contained band they were on tour in 66 and 67?

Maybe that's the question that gets more to the issues at hand.

And please don't put words in my mouth, I *never* said nor suggested this or anything else was the "entire reason" Smile didn't happen. I'm not that naive, nor am I that uninformed on the topic to make such a statement.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
sloopjohnb72
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 206


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2022, 09:32:18 PM »

The sound of the Smiley tracks is more streamlined, less loaded with sound and parts on the surface, and yes that sound does contradict how much work was actually done on the Smiley album. My previous term for it was "deceptively simple", where it sounds more basic than it is.

That's where I'm lost. While we're on Wind Chimes, here's a direct comparison:

Both versions start off with the verse, so here are the differences. The Smile version includes a few different marimba and upright bass parts. That's it. The lead vocal is delivered over the top of that, with no harmonies. It's very sparse. Of course, there's nothing bad about this at all - it's one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. The marimba parts bouncing off each other under Carl's beautiful voice are very effective, and that one bass break under "now and then..." is perfection.

The Smiley verses include Brian's Baldwin organ, a few tracks of piano string plucking, and some actual wood chimes over a silent piano guide track. The steady tempo of the original version is gone, and so is the solo vocal - now all 5 Beach Boys at the time (sorry Bruce) take turns at the lead, sing harmonic response parts, and sometimes take lines in unison. Instead of the "one chord every 2 measures" harmonic rhythm, loads of minor and diminished chords are added to embellish and complicate the song - that's right, COMPLICATE it. This music is not streamlined in any way, shape, or form.

How is organ, plucked piano strings, and wind chimes a more streamlined arrangement than marimba and bass? What about this free-tempo, multi-layered, heavily overdubbed, 5-part vocal piece of music is streamlined compared to what came before? And why would any of this have to do easing the the touring band, who will never perform it, ever? Or, again... any of these songs, outside of 2 very unique shows with Brian Wilson?

 Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh

By the way, if you're wondering why I'm not talking about the wrecking crew August verses, it's because Brian scrapped that verse section in favor of the simplified track (only featuring Chuck Berghofer and Van Dyke) before doing vocals. Yes, he simplified the arrangement... in October 1966... during the Smile era... and no, it had nothing to do with the touring band.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2022, 09:51:07 PM »

Just consider if an informal poll were taken among average Beach Boys fans, and they were asked if Smiley Smile sounded thin or heavy, densely orchestrated or sparse, simple or complex, etc. And I think the results would be predictable. Smiley Smile when compared to the Smile tracks sounds like a more stripped down, "basic" kind of production. And I'll use the term "deceptively simple" because it fits: The album sounds much less produced and loaded with tracks than Smile's productions, yet there was a lot of work put into it. But it isn't regarded by many if not most listeners as a complex production because of its overall sound, and it sounds like a stripped down production.

Why did Brian make any of the changes or revisions he did, and which track would he ultimately have used on a final tracklist of the Smile album? Does anyone have that answer? Does anyone know why he put "Rock with me Henry" on "Wonderful", and was it an experiment he tried to see if it would work, or would that have replaced what he had done previously? I surely don't have the answer. I know the "Wind Chimes" version with the huge orchestral and vocal explosion after that split second of silence, to be followed by his multilayered keyboard overdubs is one of my favorite pieces of music in the history of Western music...but do I know if he would have gone back to that for a final mix over the more basic take? I have no idea. It would be like trying to figure out which test edits and sequences of Heroes would have been "the one" master and which ones were experiments from any given day where he wanted to see if something worked or didn't work.

I'll ask the question again: If Brian was making music in the studio in 1966 and 1967 that was designed to take advantage of the studio recording process as an art form and used technology only available in the studio, where would that leave the self-contained live band in terms of having to perform it? Would two guitars, bass, and one keyboard as in the group's 1966-67 stage lineup be able to cut it on the new songs and singles? We only have Hawaii as audio proof, and it's not much to refer to.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Don Malcolm
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 1108



View Profile
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2022, 10:22:33 PM »

GF, as I read this thread I was wondering if you were going to tie it all into the August Hawaii shows/media quotes, which strike me as the best evidence supporting your rendition of the overall events that led to the “produced by the Beach Boys” phase (even though that credit isn’t really accurate until 20/20). I’m glad you got there again, because despite some of the mini-discrepancies that can be pointed to, it’s really the only scenario that makes sense given what we now know about the production process at Brian’s house from summer 67 to early 69.

I think we can lay it out as a series of dot points:

--SMiLE as "grand project" was variably alienating to the rest of the band, divided between loving the material and worrying that their career as a band would go down a rabbit hole.
--December '66 strife ultimately caused a shift toward looking for a follow-up single (H&V) that could tide things over until they fully could sort out what to do.
--Brian, suffering from cognitive dissonance, floundered in his attempts to turn H&V into a version that managed to marry art and commerce.
--He sets aside those versions of H&V in March; Vegetables becomes the next (unsuccessful) attempt.
--Speculation here--Brian has a despairing conversation with Derek Taylor, where he suggests that SMILE is going to put away. Taylor overreacts, sends out his press release about SMiLE being "scrapped."
--With the band back on the road, Brian gets back into the studio with the Wrecking Crew ("Love to Say DaDa").
--Band returns from the road, ears on fire from criticism about their inability to match the more advanced material, which triggers a massive pow-wow about the future of the band, how to tailor tracks in order to make them more playable live, the need for the band to become more involved in the songwriting/production process, etc. Home studio idea comes into play here as (partially) a way for on-the-job production training for the band, primarily Carl and Dennis.
--Recasting existing SMiLE tracks for Smiley Smile begins, LP is recorded, assembled, mixed as fast as Brian can get through it; he's still got a plan to bring out the original concept of SMiLE, as captured in the Engemann memo, but this never comes to pass.
--LEAVING TWO MYSTERIES: 1) if Smiley was mixed by mid-July, why wait two months to release it? Was there further wrangling about the SMiLE tracks? Was the status of the royalty lawsuit and did it affect the timing? Were they thinking that H&V would be the catalyst for the record and when it didn't do that well, was there then wrangling about putting GV onto Smiley Smile? When exactly did that decision get made?
2) Why did the 10-track SMiLE LP disappear along with the Brother Records logo? Engemann memo suggests that it would appear as Brother 9002 and Wild Honey as 9003.
2a) Ten track SMiLE LP would have some added Smiley Smile overlap on it that Engemann etal may have missed, including very different versions of “Wind Chimes” and “Wonderful.” Could they have recognized some conceptual glitches about a 10-track SMiLE LP that had been initially overlooked?
--Hawaii trip reveals Brian contemplating a change/end to "Beach Boying" (at least for him), intimating some kind of transition to come.
--Brian works on songs for Wild Honey, but decides to give Darlin' to Redwood, which prompts another showdown. The band prevails; Brian sets aside more elaborate production plans ("Can't Wait Too Long" variants shelved when it can't successfully be turned into a "Wild Honey"-style song).
--Wild Honey single released in October, LP rushed out in December, "Darlin'" gives them a Top 20 hit.
--Mike goes off to India in early '68 and Brian comes out of hibernation with a lot of varied material, only a portion of which makes it onto the subsequent "Friends" LP. Dennis moves into songwriting/production.
--"Friends" single released, is a big chart disappointment; FRIENDS LP comes out late June, "Do It Again" rushed out as 45 from post-FRIENDS sessions.
--Brian makes one more attempt to build "Can't Wait Too Long" into a GV-type track, but can't pull it off; disillusionment and depression take over, and his reclusive phase begins. Even that is fraught, as the band is increasingly in his house recording tracks. He's apart from the band, but simultaneously surrounded by them.
--The band builds its first LP without him to the extent possible at the time, producing material that winds up as about half of 20/20. They didn’t quite have enough material ready to go, so they had to add “Our Prayer” and “Cabinessence” to the track list, which was another “twist of the knife” for Brian, meaning that he’d lost de facto control over how SMiLE would be handled.
Logged
Zenobi
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 216


View Profile
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2022, 10:35:54 PM »

Wow, this thread is like a sudden explosion of energy and colour in this forum. Makes me feel younger. Thanks to Galaxy Liz (love that nickname, btw) for starting it, and to all participants.
Also particular thanks to Guitarfool, Angela and Rab for the links about Do You Like Worms.
I listened again, several times, to the session at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRocIqQSsK8&t=194s
where the "new melody" for Worms surfaced, and now to my (admittedly untrained) ears the melody Brian sings at 3'18'' is not truncated as I had thought before.
Actually, the melody is present in the session in 3 slightly different versions, both vocal and instrumental.

Version 1 is what the upright bass plays at 1'34'', twice. I hear it as:
TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TAAAA

Version 2 is what Brian sings, with no words, at 1'46', and the upright bass plays, twice, at 2'45'' and again, a bit less clearly, at 5'07''. I hear it as:
TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TA TA TAA

Version 3 is what Brings sings, with words, at 3'18''. I hear it like version 1, rhythmically, but sprightlier and with like a bouncing dynamic. I think it's awesome. By the way, does anybody understand what Brian exactly says at 3'18'' ?

However I think this melody can be sung with the known lyrics and works well when followed by the Plymouth Rock refrain, like this:
Brian melody in TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TAAAA rhythm.      (Oh, once upon the Sandwich iiiisles)
Brian melody in TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TA TA TAA rhythm. (the social structure steamed upon Hawaii)
"Rock, rock, roll, Plymouth Rock, roll over ..."

« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 11:36:49 PM by Zenobi » Logged
Zenobi
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 216


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2022, 11:07:40 PM »

I think SMiLE is not any single thing. It's at the same time Smiley Smile (which I adore), BWPS, the 2011 Sessions, the fanmixes, and several other things. Navigating the immense complexity of SMiLE is the most exhilarating music voyage imaginable.
Also, it's uncanny how the Paley sessions created such a similar situation. The worst myth about Brian is that he was creatively toast in 1967, or even in 1966. What BS.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 11:14:19 PM by Zenobi » Logged
Galaxy Liz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2022, 01:16:00 AM »

As ever, it is useful to keep in mind that the Beach Boys is not just a band, or group, that makes music.  Before that, they are a family. It so happens that this family makes music and then found commercial success with that music, but they are a family first and foremost.

For the Beach Boys, Smiley Smile is preferable to whatever Smile could or would have been because Smiley is, in their collective mindset, a collective endeavor by the whole band ("Produced by the Beach Boys") with all members engaged in the creation of the album.  The album is recorded in sequestered  family space, Brian Wilson's home, away from the outsiders and various external "bad influences" that are perceived to the cause of Brian's problems.  In this way, Smiley Smile is indeed Smile - but only the Beach Boys' version of Smile, not that of Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks.

During the time period in question, they primary operating goal of the collective Beach Boys is not musical, let alone artistic.  As of mid-1967, the main purpose of the Beach Boys is to stay together as a family/band. Their career is, arguably, in jeopardy during the Smile-era, and once Smile collapses, it becomes more apparent that something must be done, and done quickly, to right the ship, or to revert the Beach Boys back to its prior equilibrium state - that of a unified family organization, rather than an artistic dictatorship whereby all members of the family are at the mercy of the whims of one eccentric family member.

Stability is goal number one, because if they cannot do that, then everything else - chart ranking, singles, musical quality, etc. - is moot.  Because of Brian's actions circa 1966-67, the family foundation of the Beach Boys had been in jeopardy.  If that hadn't been the case - for example, if, hypothetically, Brian had hired Tony Asher to help him write happy, up-tempo songs about boy-girl relationships - there wouldn't have been as much of a problem.  If the family foundation is strong and secure (i.e., nobody in the band is going to leave, or go solo, or do anything that threatens the existence of the band) then yes, it is possible to move on and try to make good music. This was the state of things in, say, 1963, and into the first half of 1964. In those days the Beach Boys, as a whole, single entity, is in good shape (especially if they can put some distance between themselves and Murry, which they did)  Brian Wilson, however, as an individual, is progressively in worse and worse shape, as signified by the nervous breakdown at the end of 1964.

Anybody can fill in the rest... it's basically a tug-of-war between Brian and what he represents (both positive and negative) and the Beach Boys business family and what it represents (both positive and negative). Anyway, this dynamic is a significant (though not the only) reason Smiley Smile sounds the way it does in comparison to the Smile Sessions music. Smiley was a function of business necessity (survival) , not just unfettered artistic license on the part of the band members, as if they could easily choose what they wanted Smiley to sound like.

Smiley is a a reflection of the Beach Boys as of mid-1967: talented, but hopelessly dysfunctional.  I appreciate Smiley too, but to really celebrate the album, you need to push the dysfunction and family problems out of your mind and pretend that the Beach Boys are happily unified and are intending to make a cool, weird, left-field album.


No, The Beach Boys are a band that makes music.  Brian has other cousins who are not in the band.  Al and Bruce are no relation at all.  If the group disbanded those who are family would still be family.

If your primary aim is to keep the group (family and non-family) together then it still is way off target since it started the decline in Brian’s creative involvement in the group and his decline in health and into drug taking and remaining in his room which eventually ended with them expelling him from the group. 

But that isn’t the primary aim of a group.  It is to make music and the best music that they can.  As they very soon started trading off Smile - not The Beach Boys version but the version by Brian and VDP - by promising its release and then putting pieces of it on various albums it’s obvious that they realised its worth eventually.  Brian puts a version of it out to great acclaim and then in 2011 The Smile Sessions are released which presumably was approved by the remaining band.

Smiley Smile was labelled ‘produced by the Beach Boys’ yet they over ruled Brian’s wishes not to include GV.  It is made in Brian Wilson’s home not the Beach Boys family home!

Mike Love was not happy with Tony Asher’s lyrical contribution either.  There was a problem during Pet Sounds.

What it basically amounted to was that Brian had musical acumen which the other band members lacked but they didn’t trust him.  Them forcing Brian to abandon 3 Dog Night who he had signed to Brother and then blaming Brian for not keeping them when they went on to be extremely successful is another case in point of them not trusting Brian’s skill and then blaming him for them not doing so. So basically instead of keeping the band together, they shot themselves in the foot.

According to David Anderle Brian did intend to make a good humour album and THAT is Smiley Smile.

This is a vast, vast oversimplification of the rest of the band's attitude towards Brian (and their attitude towards the "Smile" music), especially if we're lumping *all* of the other members together.

There's no successful reductionist approach to trying to explain the demise of "Smile", and certainly no reductionist approach to trying to explain the demise of Brian, both within the group and outside of the group.

And if we're getting into "expelling Brian from the group", which I have to assume means the late 1982 "firing", then that's a *whole* other ball of a wax full of tons of moving parts.


Of course it’s a simplification though I think it was Van Dyke Parks who said something like ‘all of them disliked it, even the lesser known members of the group’.  VDP may feel a little bitterly toward everyone considering what happened and it may be tainting his recollection but you’d think that it would have to be more than 3 who disliked it enough to want it scrapped especially considering the difficulties that decision would cause them.

I’m not actually trying to explain the ‘demise’ of Smile - the reverse. I’m trying to explain how it may have survived and how it was actually ready and that it was only the decision of the band - or the majority of the band - which prevented its release.

As for ‘explaining the demise’ of Brian.  He is not yet dead, not actually nor musically.  He has written and performed music and produced many albums both within and outside the group.

Of course I’m referring to the firing and we all know it was done to try and give Brian the motivation to quit drugs though I’m not sure that saying he couldn’t ever rejoin the group even if he stopped taking drugs would be a motivation to stop, probably a reason to take more.
Logged
Galaxy Liz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2022, 01:36:32 AM »

One way I would describe how “close” the “Smile” album ever was to being “finished” would be to point to the circa 1995 Paley sessions. The comparison is only apt in this specific way: Andy Paley has gone on record saying the Beach Boys could have cut vocals for *an entire album* of that material in two days.

Similarly, it’s easy to look at the “Smile” assembly presented at the front of the “Smile Sessions” box and say “well, all we need is the following overdubs…..” Even if we ignore that the circa 2003 work on compiling a “finished” album accomplished a lot of the compositional work to getting the track flow to seem “complete”, and we just assume for the sake of argument that the assembly as presented on the 2011 set could have existed in 1967 and just needed X number of overdubs, a very similar problem presents itself as what happened decades later on the Paley material.

Namely, get all of the creators and band members in there to do the work. There are approximately 87 roadblocks to making that happen. Yes, the Paley project had more business/internal politics issues than “Smile” did (arguably, certainly *different* types of those issues). But there’s a TON of BB material, and just projects in general, that are seemingly *so* close to happening, yet are a million miles away.

And that’s not even getting into truly actual *finished* projects that have been shelved.


They had 7 complete tracks which just needed some sweetening and mixing (which Brian did over one night with a couple of technicians for Smiley Smile - though he may want to take more time for Smile especially considering its complexity).   
They planned to record the vocals for Surf’s Up in December 1966 but for some reason this didn’t happen and it seems likely that this was the time when the poop hit the fan.  We know that the vocals were done at some point.  I’ve been trying to find that picture of the master tapes to see if there is one for the Surf’s Up vocals because if it was recorded in 66-67 that means it was worked on outside of the listed schedules and therefore probably in Brian’s home studio post the probably fictional ‘scrapping’ in May.  If that is the case who can say exactly how much was left to be finished.
Logged
Galaxy Liz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2022, 03:33:14 AM »

One way I would describe how “close” the “Smile” album ever was to being “finished” would be to point to the circa 1995 Paley sessions. The comparison is only apt in this specific way: Andy Paley has gone on record saying the Beach Boys could have cut vocals for *an entire album* of that material in two days.

Similarly, it’s easy to look at the “Smile” assembly presented at the front of the “Smile Sessions” box and say “well, all we need is the following overdubs…..” Even if we ignore that the circa 2003 work on compiling a “finished” album accomplished a lot of the compositional work to getting the track flow to seem “complete”, and we just assume for the sake of argument that the assembly as presented on the 2011 set could have existed in 1967 and just needed X number of overdubs, a very similar problem presents itself as what happened decades later on the Paley material.

Namely, get all of the creators and band members in there to do the work. There are approximately 87 roadblocks to making that happen. Yes, the Paley project had more business/internal politics issues than “Smile” did (arguably, certainly *different* types of those issues). But there’s a TON of BB material, and just projects in general, that are seemingly *so* close to happening, yet are a million miles away.

And that’s not even getting into truly actual *finished* projects that have been shelved.


along those lines, Brian must have considered Van Dyke Park's work unfinished, or else it wouldn't have been such a big deal when he quit the project. So assuming that the lyrics we have represent the lyrics that Brian and Van Dyke Parks assumed they would need is also probably a mistake.

Edit: another thought on this theme: during the Pet Sounds sessions, Brian often seems to have recorded a scratch vocal while the band was away for songs, like Here Today or I know There's an Answer, that were presumably always intended for other band members, or like Wouldn't it be Nice that weren't. I was *going* to say that Brian didn't do that as often on the Smile material, probably because before he could record a scratch vocal, he had to assemble the backing track from its various pieces, and that this extra step ended up getting on the way of things getting finished. But then it occurred to me, thinking about Bicycle Rider's comment early in the thread about Wonderful possibly being intended for Carl from the beginning, that actually Brian *was* doing this, and that the vocals we have on songs like Wonderful or Wind Chimes were just guide vocals, in which case actually Brian had done almost no recording of lead vocals at all. Which would feed into the theory that getting the Beach Boys together to do the necessary work was a big part of the problem.

VDP - Good point.

Perhaps the project was stretching beyond the original plan and that the track list Brian gave to Capitol was just to keep them off his back so he could get on with it.  In which case there may be truth in both of what we are saying.  That Brian had completed the version of Smile to fulfil his contractual obligations whilst continuing to work on it and expand it.

Wonderful is weird because Brian forbade them to use any of the recorded Smile stuff for Smiley Smile (so they say).  H&V had already been released so that was a done deal. I’d guess at that time he intended to complete Smile and didn’t want it used - except Wonderful was used and used with VDP’s lyrics.  Wind Chimes is credited to Wilson only but was still used.  Was it just the VDP lyrics which caused the problem and the complexity of the instrumental arrangements, hence the paring down (as other people have suggested the ability to perform the music on stage may have been an issue)?  Vega-tables lyrics weren’t used.  New lyrics were written and it changed to Vegetables. But why was Wonderful allowed to go on Smiley Smile and did VDP write other lyrics to Wind Chimes?

The Beach Boys were on tour until 30th November.  Wind Chimes was done before they returned so likely Brian sang lead - the whole group were credited on Smiley. Wonderful was recorded on 15th December so the band were back and there would be no reason for Carl not to sing the lead and he is credited lead on Smiley so presumably that would be a re-recording.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:38:10 AM by Galaxy Liz » Logged
Galaxy Liz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2022, 03:40:22 AM »

When the Boys returned to the US that May, Brian was still recording Smile. The Derek Taylor announcement, I think, was either premature or simply wrong when it was published. So the Boys return, upset at the criticism and here's Brian still recording tracks which could not be reproduced on the stage. There are possibly arguments, finger pointing, anger, etc.

I'm extremely confused... you think that the Beach Boys accidentally announced that their new album was scrapped, and then happened to scrap the new album later? All because Love to Say Da Da has clarinets instead of melodicas and children's choirs? The latter being somehow easier to reproduce on stage?

Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh

I'd like to know who told Derek Taylor to make that announcement.  Capitol didn't - they still had recording sessions scheduled after that date.  Brian could have but in July was still discussing the cover for Smile so it seems unlikely.  Who would that serve?  Who would Derek Taylor believe and accept their authority to act upon it?  Was the announcement made to cause the scrapping of the album?  Seems to have worked that way.
Logged
Galaxy Liz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2022, 03:42:35 AM »

And again, how exactly is ANYTHING on Smiley Smile easier to reproduce on stage? Why would the Beach Boys get mad at Brian because they couldn't reproduce clarinets and flutes in a concert, and then happily accept songs with 4 different keyboards and a children's choir overdubbed?

Good point
Logged
Angela Jones
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 61


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2022, 04:01:19 AM »

Wow, this thread is like a sudden explosion of energy and colour in this forum. Makes me feel younger. Thanks to Galaxy Liz (love that nickname, btw) for starting it, and to all participants.
Also particular thanks to Guitarfool, Angela and Rab for the links about Do You Like Worms.
I listened again, several times, to the session at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRocIqQSsK8&t=194s
where the "new melody" for Worms surfaced, and now to my (admittedly untrained) ears the melody Brian sings at 3'18'' is not truncated as I had thought before.
Actually, the melody is present in the session in 3 slightly different versions, both vocal and instrumental.

Version 1 is what the upright bass plays at 1'34'', twice. I hear it as:
TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TAAAA

Version 2 is what Brian sings, with no words, at 1'46', and the upright bass plays, twice, at 2'45'' and again, a bit less clearly, at 5'07''. I hear it as:



TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TA TA TAA

Version 3 is what Brings sings, with words, at 3'18''. I hear it like version 1, rhythmically, but sprightlier and with like a bouncing dynamic. I think it's awesome. By the way, does anybody understand what Brian exactly says at 3'18'' ?

However I think this melody can be sung with the known lyrics and works well when followed by the Plymouth Rock refrain, like this:
Brian melody in TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TAAAA rhythm.      (Oh, once upon the Sandwich iiiisles)
Brian melody in TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TA TA TAA rhythm. (the social structure steamed upon Hawaii)
"Rock, rock, roll, Plymouth Rock, roll over ..."



Thanks for the thanks!

TBH I find SMiLE so huge, so confusing, that it is easier to focus on small details of it like the above snippet. I can definitely hear what sounds like 'for once upon' in Brian's vocal but the rest is unclear.  The Sandwich Isles lyric might fit if Brian sang 'Oh once upon the Sandwich Isles ' dum dumdy dum dum (sorry I don't write music!) but 'the social structure steamed upon Hawaii' doesn't scan. The song as per BWPS goes "once upon the Sa-nd-wich I-isles", drawling out the words 'Sandwich Isles'. The bit Brian sings is faster, jauntier.
Logged
Galaxy Liz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2022, 04:32:25 AM »

Wow, this thread is like a sudden explosion of energy and colour in this forum. Makes me feel younger. Thanks to Galaxy Liz (love that nickname, btw) for starting it, and to all participants.
Also particular thanks to Guitarfool, Angela and Rab for the links about Do You Like Worms.
I listened again, several times, to the session at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRocIqQSsK8&t=194s
where the "new melody" for Worms surfaced, and now to my (admittedly untrained) ears the melody Brian sings at 3'18'' is not truncated as I had thought before.
Actually, the melody is present in the session in 3 slightly different versions, both vocal and instrumental.

Version 1 is what the upright bass plays at 1'34'', twice. I hear it as:
TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TAAAA

Version 2 is what Brian sings, with no words, at 1'46', and the upright bass plays, twice, at 2'45'' and again, a bit less clearly, at 5'07''. I hear it as:
TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TA TA TAA

Version 3 is what Brings sings, with words, at 3'18''. I hear it like version 1, rhythmically, but sprightlier and with like a bouncing dynamic. I think it's awesome. By the way, does anybody understand what Brian exactly says at 3'18'' ?

However I think this melody can be sung with the known lyrics and works well when followed by the Plymouth Rock refrain, like this:
Brian melody in TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TAAAA rhythm.      (Oh, once upon the Sandwich iiiisles)
Brian melody in TA TA TA TA | TA TA TA TA | TA TA TAA rhythm. (the social structure steamed upon Hawaii)
"Rock, rock, roll, Plymouth Rock, roll over ..."


Glad I posted it too (I was worried it go down like a damp squib and no one would reply or I'd be shot down in flames) and thanks to everyone for the lively and interesting discussion - though my head is throbbing.  I'm trying to keep all the music threads in my head along with the dates of sessions, who said what and why.  But that's Smile for you!  Ang is playing this stuff over and over.  I can't hear Brian either.  She's good at working out this stuff - I'm rubbish. (The nickname has a silly origin but is also a nod to my sister's avatar of Dennis surfing in space and our associated email address.)
Logged
Galaxy Liz
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2022, 04:36:13 AM »

I think SMiLE is not any single thing. It's at the same time Smiley Smile (which I adore), BWPS, the 2011 Sessions, the fanmixes, and several other things. Navigating the immense complexity of SMiLE is the most exhilarating music voyage imaginable.
Also, it's uncanny how the Paley sessions created such a similar situation. The worst myth about Brian is that he was creatively toast in 1967, or even in 1966. What BS.


Absolutely!!!!
Logged
gfx
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 21 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.698 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!