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Author Topic: Sounds of Summer 6LP Announced  (Read 19066 times)
Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll
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« Reply #200 on: June 18, 2022, 12:48:49 PM »



So do you want to talk facts? We have those and would be happy to open the archives to show what these people did who were banned here. Not a single ban was done for criticizing Brian or defending Mike. Period. If someone has information to add to that, please let me, Billy, and Charles know because we know how and why the bans happened. 



OPEN THE ARCHIVES!!! or forever hold your peace.
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« Reply #201 on: June 18, 2022, 05:45:41 PM »

OK I am listening on Amazon Prime - German based and this set is not doing much for me, primarily because of someone being lazy and using mono mixes for many tracks, despite labelling them as stereo mixes. Then I Get Around is the faux-stereo mono seperated by a slight delay duophonic crap mix. Then the alleged Fun Fun Fun, Don't Worry Baby, Help Me Rhonda, When I Grow Up, In My My Room, Heroes & Villains, Do It Again, darlin', Good Vibrations, Good to My Baby, You're So Good to Me, Aren't You Glad,  Wendy, Let Him Run Wild, & Vegetables are all plain mono. This is a big slaps in the face to users who pay for the Amazon streaming service and detracts from appreciating the mixes that are the true new mixes. What in the hell is going on here?

Not sure if this will work in your country, but here is the link to the YouTube Music page with the new SoS mixes: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nLcpqmy5v1q-ZZdbYvU5x1gkl8VfLZq9k

I remember back when Apple Music started and I ported ALL of my booted/rarity tracks into my library. Apple replaced them all with with official versions of the tracks. Grateful that I have backups of this stuff. But sometimes these streaming services do the weirdest things. I hope you're able to hear the proper stereo versions soon!

Youtube sound is definitely an improvement on Spotify/Deezer for me. Still some bizarre/sloppy things in this set that I can't understand how they got past the approval process. Why not fade out the hiss on Baby Blue vocal rather than just abruptly cut it? as an example.

Yeah there are some oddities for sure, such as the guitar track on Surfin Safari - one of my favorite earlier tracks - and there is a lot of digital distortion noticeable on that guitar track (though the vocals are mixed gorgeously). And yeah, I did notice abrupt hiss clips in one or two of the tracks. But thankfully these oddities are rare for me, and overall all the remixes sound fantastic to my ears, and given only 24 of 80 tracks are remixed, a couple of those tracks having oddities doesn't really effect my experience.

I think there are also massive differences in the mix depending on the way you listen to it. The difference between Dolby Atmos being on and off is huge (I prefer it being off). I mentioned audio codecs before and I think that is at play here (which is why there are differences in quality/sound between platforms). Also having any EQ on Spotify (and Apple Music) effects how the mix sounds. Also there is a difference in sound when listening to wired/analog vs Bluetooth. There are a lot of variables to consider in the digital age.

On another note, I see people are now complaining about Carl and Dennis' tracks being tinkered with (this is somehow sacrilege). Didn't Chuck Britz help Brian with mixing the early-mid-60s output of The Beach Boys? Is it sacrilege that he isn't here to give his token of approval on the mixes he helped Brian with? People are scraping the bottom of the barrel to trash this project.

Anywho, I'm off for a drive, gonna put the windows down and crank this new set. It's gonna be a good day Smiley

No.

Brian was the producer for most of  the ‘60s material. Carl was the primary producer for many of the ‘70s tracks. Many of the remixes impart significant production changes to the tracks. Chuck Britz was a recording engineer working under Brian’s direction.

I see what you mean in that regard. But I also just don't see why this is an issue. As Billy says, the originals are all there to listen to. People just seem to be nitpicking this stuff to death....if you don't like it simply put on the plethora of original versions that are available.

Because IMO it’s not about *me* or even the people who don’t like it. It’s not about not liking it. It’s about how the Beach Boys artistry is being presented to the masses. And I understand Brian, Mike, and Al are on board and that’s cool. And they are representing Carl & Dennis. And even then, people can disagree with the decisions made by the group. Certainly they have made some curious decisions over the years.

I mean, what if this entire set was presented in duophonic? Would everyone here still say, “hey enjoy this duophonic release, and if you don’t like it there are always the originals!”.

Or what if the entire set were presented with vocals on one channel and the track on the other?

I’m actually refraining from commenting too much on the tracks themselves, out of respect for those who worked in the set. But it’s clear that a lot of people have legit concerns about these versions. And I think dismissing the concerns as ungrateful complaints is disengenuois.
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« Reply #202 on: June 18, 2022, 05:49:41 PM »

I can understand that feeling…but the original mixes are still available! I’m literally on Spotify as we type listening to the All Summer Long album in mono! If the new mix of Marcella was inserted into So Tough, then that’d be out of line. But it’s not! It’s one thing to not like the new mixes… I do for the most part (although I do prefer the original mono ) but the whole thing about Carl not being here to sign off….sorry , IMHO that is faulty logic. By that same logic, we need to remove every copyright extension release. No more performance of classical music, as Bach can’t sign off on it. Get rid of every Beatles reissue after Lennon died. Nobody could ever cover a song again.

Ok, so that sounds a bit extreme, but hopefully my point is clear. As long as it is clearly labeled a remix, there’s no issue. Now passing off a new mix as the original vintage deal, now that’s a different thing entirely

Yeh but this kind of thing is like “ha wow I wish The Beach Boys weren’t on Full House.” Some will say, well just don’t watch it. But the gripe is not about the person who doesn’t like The Beach Boys on Full House. It’s about a greater concern for the way the group is presented.

It’s not about not doing anything that Carl can’t sign off on. To me, I’m curious as to why there was any kind of desire to endlessly remix the tracks like this in the first place, and to include them in place of the original (IMO tasteful, artful, and definitive) versions on a high profile release such as this.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 05:50:38 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #203 on: June 18, 2022, 06:45:38 PM »

Folks have been unhappy with Mark’s mixing decisions since at least the 2013 big boxed set and possibly before. This is the way they’ve gone, and this is the sound they’ve chosen. If you don’t like it, fine, but none of this counts as a new development or somehow unexpected. For that matter, stereo remixes have been used as an inducement for fans to buy compilations since at least the 2009 release of Summer Love Songs. Again, you may not like it, but it’s entirely in keeping with past practices.

Anyway, I listened to all 80 tracks on a lengthy car trip today. It sounds fabulous to me. The remixes seem to fall into three groups, all with slightly different functions. The first are remixes of the early material, basically fixing the incredibly crude original stereo separation. The second are highlighting extra parts of especially complex 70s arrangements like Marcella. Finally, you have a couple of experimental takes on material like God Please Let Us Go On that hasn’t really been examined since release. Everything in the first batch sounded great to me. The second batch was largely fascinating, although as noted the hiss in Baby Blue is really something. The third batch is fun and perhaps shouldn’t be taken overly seriously.

This is art, yes, but it’s also popular entertainment. Old mono mixes, crudely separated stereo mixes and overly dense mixes make the music less appealing to the widest possible audience. This new set attempts to package the band’s best together in consistent sound and presentation. I dig it and appreciate the effort.
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« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2022, 06:48:28 PM »

I forget which comp it is, I think it’s the Good Vibrations boxset, but I remember hearing some weird artifacts on DYLW, and I remember the weird far right far left tracks on the final disc (where you could pan your personal stereo to hear just vocals or just the instrumental - it was by design but it was odd nonetheless). There were some other oddities that I forget about now but they were there.

I wonder how many casual fans/prospective fans completely walked away from wanting to hear the beach boys because of those oddities. Probably (just based on simple logic) zero.

What I find funny is that from the same crowd that goes into panic mode when the word “legacy” comes from up (“it is utterly impossible for the legacy to be ruined!!!!!”) is now claiming that a few tracks from an 80 track set are going to supposedly completely destabilize the way people view the beach boys.

There are a few tracks from the new comp I don’t care for. But I feel that way about probably every set. It doesn’t mean I go into full meltdown mode and say “God help you” to those who mixed the set.
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« Reply #205 on: June 18, 2022, 06:50:27 PM »

I dig it and appreciate the effort.

Great post Wirestone, and I completely agree.
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« Reply #206 on: June 18, 2022, 06:53:48 PM »

Old mono mixes, crudely separated stereo mixes and overly dense mixes make the music less appealing to the widest possible audience.

That simply isn’t true. Those “old mono mixes” are what created the Beach Boys’ success, and allowed it to endure, for  the bulk of their career. Brian’s mono mixes are so superior … they hit harder, they pop and punch, and they are delicate and compelling.

It’s odd to me that you seem to be trash talking Brian’s OG mixes with the argument that newer mixes are more … commercial?

As I’ve noted a few times here in the past, in the mono era, there was no such thing as “the mix” as a stand-alone thing like we know it today. The track was built along the way, and each element was moving toward the “dubdown”, or the ultimate record.
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« Reply #207 on: June 18, 2022, 07:17:02 PM »

Old mono mixes, crudely separated stereo mixes and overly dense mixes make the music less appealing to the widest possible audience.

That simply isn’t true. Those “old mono mixes” are what created the Beach Boys’ success, and allowed it to endure, for  the bulk of their career. Brian’s mono mixes are so superior … they hit harder, they pop and punch, and they are delicate and compelling.

It’s odd to me that you seem to be trash talking Brian’s OG mixes with the argument that newer mixes are more … commercial?

As I’ve noted a few times here in the past, in the mono era, there was no such thing as “the mix” as a stand-alone thing like we know it today. The track was built along the way, and each element was moving toward the “dubdown”, or the ultimate record.

“Trash talking”, by calling them “old” (which they are), and in this day and age mono isn’t going to be a hit with the widest possible audience here in 2022 (gee big surprise!). Brian specifically mixed the tracks to sound amazing for the AM radio mono speakers of his time.

Just the fact you have to outlandishly claim someone is “trash talking” because they’re simply stating facts just shows how ”strong” your argument is.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 07:20:23 PM by rab2591 » Logged

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« Reply #208 on: June 18, 2022, 07:53:09 PM »

I can understand that feeling…but the original mixes are still available! I’m literally on Spotify as we type listening to the All Summer Long album in mono! If the new mix of Marcella was inserted into So Tough, then that’d be out of line. But it’s not! It’s one thing to not like the new mixes… I do for the most part (although I do prefer the original mono ) but the whole thing about Carl not being here to sign off….sorry , IMHO that is faulty logic. By that same logic, we need to remove every copyright extension release. No more performance of classical music, as Bach can’t sign off on it. Get rid of every Beatles reissue after Lennon died. Nobody could ever cover a song again.

Ok, so that sounds a bit extreme, but hopefully my point is clear. As long as it is clearly labeled a remix, there’s no issue. Now passing off a new mix as the original vintage deal, now that’s a different thing entirely

Yeh but this kind of thing is like “ha wow I wish The Beach Boys weren’t on Full House.” Some will say, well just don’t watch it. But the gripe is not about the person who doesn’t like The Beach Boys on Full House. It’s about a greater concern for the way the group is presented.

It’s not about not doing anything that Carl can’t sign off on. To me, I’m curious as to why there was any kind of desire to endlessly remix the tracks like this in the first place, and to include them in place of the original (IMO tasteful, artful, and definitive) versions on a high profile release such as this.

Good point about Full House… but that was also while the band was an active functioning entity, but barely hanging on by a thread. At this point, in 2022 they’re pretty much set. Besides, they’re clearly labeled as remixes. Pretty much the first instinct for someone hearing a remix of something they’re not familiar with is to compare to the original , especially now that it’s easy to do so.

As for the other point… remember for the longest time we got endless repackaging of the same old songs over and over . Redundant releases were a plague. We kind of have an embarrassment of riches these days
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« Reply #209 on: June 18, 2022, 07:57:33 PM »

Also want to add, I love The Beach Boys in mono. I think Pet Sounds sounds utterly amazing in mono. But I also feel the same way about the stereo. And I also realize that selling comps in mono or trying to promote mono or the same remasters that have been available for 20+ years to a wider new generation just ain’t gonna fly in 2022 and beyond. Especially if the team is trying to make money making releases that will help propel traction for more rarity releases in the future.
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« Reply #210 on: June 18, 2022, 08:38:39 PM »

Old mono mixes, crudely separated stereo mixes and overly dense mixes make the music less appealing to the widest possible audience.

That simply isn’t true. Those “old mono mixes” are what created the Beach Boys’ success, and allowed it to endure, for  the bulk of their career. Brian’s mono mixes are so superior … they hit harder, they pop and punch, and they are delicate and compelling.

It’s odd to me that you seem to be trash talking Brian’s OG mixes with the argument that newer mixes are more … commercial?

As I’ve noted a few times here in the past, in the mono era, there was no such thing as “the mix” as a stand-alone thing like we know it today. The track was built along the way, and each element was moving toward the “dubdown”, or the ultimate record.

“Trash talking”, by calling them “old” (which they are), and in this day and age mono isn’t going to be a hit with the widest possible audience here in 2022 (gee big surprise!). Brian specifically mixed the tracks to sound amazing for the AM radio mono speakers of his time.

Just the fact you have to outlandishly claim someone is “trash talking” because they’re simply stating facts just shows how ”strong” your argument is.

“Old” mono mixes. “Crude” stereo separation. “Overly dense mixes”. “Less appealing”. “Overly dense” is a jab dude. And certainly not a “fact” as you say LOL. Calling relevant musical works “old” is a jab. When people are listening to Surfin Safari or I Get Around this summer, they are part of the moment whether OG mono or AI extractions.

That is trash talking the OG records. Besides, you ignored my point that the apparent intention is to make The Beach Boys’ original recordings more commercial for today’s audiences? As if this is preferable to presenting their historically important  and artistically relevant original recordings (yes, recordings).

It is what it is, but it’s odd to me we are at a point as fans where people are trashing the original productions/recordings, and defending reinventions of them with the argument they are more commercial? What the heck, you know? Bizarre.

Aside from that, I absolutely disagree that mono is not where it’s at. Mono is way hipper than stereo. Mono BB vinyl sells for higher prices at this point. It’s a selling point. Hang out in any record store. Sundazed and Rhino are well aware of this. Analog mixes and analog mastering is also a selling point.

There are plenty of potential ways to go with the back catalog. This is one of them but not the only one.
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« Reply #211 on: June 18, 2022, 08:50:02 PM »

Also want to add, I love The Beach Boys in mono. I think Pet Sounds sounds utterly amazing in mono. But I also feel the same way about the stereo. And I also realize that selling comps in mono or trying to promote mono or the same remasters that have been available for 20+ years to a wider new generation just ain’t gonna fly in 2022 and beyond. Especially if the team is trying to make money making releases that will help propel traction for more rarity releases in the future.

Sure it would fly. Earbuds and iPhone speakers like mono mixes just fine if not more.
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« Reply #212 on: June 18, 2022, 08:52:59 PM »

I would love it if everything was mixed to mono under Brian's strict supervision.
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« Reply #213 on: June 18, 2022, 09:07:26 PM »

“Old mono mixes” yes, something that was made 50+ years ago isn’t young.

“Crude stereo separation”… have you heard some of the plethora different versions of any of those early beach boys songs in stereo? Where the lead or BG vocals are panned hard right and the instrumentals hard left, I would call that crude in an age of 3D immersive stereo. Also Brian is literally deaf in one ear making it impossible for him to make a proper stereo version. Even Brian himself has said it sucks he can’t hear in stereo. So why anyone would even think of those early stereo mixes as pure gold is ridiculous to me…

“Overall dense mixes” see above.

“Less appealing” - I stand by the idea that mono mixes made specifically for AM mono radio sets aren’t that appealing in an era where Dolby surround, immersive headphones, hell the most popular Bluetooth headphones currently support this technology, are all the rage. So yes, I doubt the youngins today are flocking to the Apple store and buying their AirPods in complete elation to hear mono mixes of Beach Boys songs from 1965. I also feel the same about many of the old stereo mixes where the panning just isn’t made for the modern stereo setup (5.1, Atmos, etc).
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« Reply #214 on: June 18, 2022, 09:37:08 PM »

Has no one noticed that the Beatles are also remixing their records? Even classics like Abbey Road that are about as perfectly mixed as makes no difference? (Many Beatles fans loathe them, too.) I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. But clearly there’s some thought in the industry that remastering isn’t enough — classic bands need to have their classic tracks mixed anew and with an ear toward current tastes.

As stated repeatedly on this thread, these mixes are not replacing those on the classic albums, which are widely available and simple to find. They are clearly labeled and dated alternates. If we want this music to live, it can’t sit on a shelf. It has to live in the world of earbuds and streaming, of loudness wars and Bluetooth, of YouTube clips and Spotify playlists.

And my God I’d rather Mark and Howie and Alan do this than Mike Love and LoCash…
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« Reply #215 on: June 19, 2022, 01:16:47 AM »

Also want to add, I love The Beach Boys in mono. I think Pet Sounds sounds utterly amazing in mono. But I also feel the same way about the stereo. And I also realize that selling comps in mono or trying to promote mono or the same remasters that have been available for 20+ years to a wider new generation just ain’t gonna fly in 2022 and beyond. Especially if the team is trying to make money making releases that will help propel traction for more rarity releases in the future.

Sure it would fly. Earbuds and iPhone speakers like mono mixes just fine if not more.
Might be slightly off-topic, but this is a great point I feel a lot of people, not just listeners but sound engineers and producers as well are forgetting a lot of times. The "youngsters" don't listen to music with a HI-FI stereo or 5.1 system. They, me included for 90 % times, listen to sounds out of their phone speaker or a bluetooth speaker, which basicly is almost equivalent to an old AM or FM radio. Earbuds, same thing, stereo won't make a difference. Mostly people hear it in MONO anyway, even if they don't realize that.
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« Reply #216 on: June 19, 2022, 02:48:47 AM »

Lost amidst the debate is that this is a hits album geared towards casual fans with new remixes to draw in diehards and completists who have to have everything. The newbies are not going to know or care that the new mixes are new. Oddly enough, for me the mono and vintage stereo mixes on this new collection stick out like a sore thumb which isn’t something I could say about the original Sounds Of Summer release.
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« Reply #217 on: June 19, 2022, 03:07:41 AM »

Also want to add, I love The Beach Boys in mono. I think Pet Sounds sounds utterly amazing in mono. But I also feel the same way about the stereo. And I also realize that selling comps in mono or trying to promote mono or the same remasters that have been available for 20+ years to a wider new generation just ain’t gonna fly in 2022 and beyond. Especially if the team is trying to make money making releases that will help propel traction for more rarity releases in the future.

Sure it would fly. Earbuds and iPhone speakers like mono mixes just fine if not more.
Might be slightly off-topic, but this is a great point I feel a lot of people, not just listeners but sound engineers and producers as well are forgetting a lot of times. The "youngsters" don't listen to music with a HI-FI stereo or 5.1 system. They, me included for 90 % times, listen to sounds out of their phone speaker or a bluetooth speaker, which basicly is almost equivalent to an old AM or FM radio. Earbuds, same thing, stereo won't make a difference. Mostly people hear it in MONO anyway, even if they don't realize that.

I don’t personally know the statistics about kids usage of Bluetooth/phone speakers vs headphones, but I’d imagine a lot of kids riding a bus to school, riding in the car with their parents on road trips, walking to school, etc, are listening on headphones. Yes I imagine most, if not all, use their iPhone or Bluetooth speakers as well depending on the situation. Either way, stereo matters for modern listeners, otherwise studios wouldn’t waste their time mixing tracks in stereo/Atmos these days.

Secondly, how does stereo not make a difference with earbuds? They are literally a means to hear left/right. And all of Apple’s (who has almost a 50% share of the headphone market in the US) latest headphone releases support Dolby Atmos and head tracking for an immersive stereo experience. I’m pretty sure nearly every top-40 song these days is mixed for this technology. You don’t need a hi-fi or 5.1 system to listen to music in immersive stereo these days.
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« Reply #218 on: June 19, 2022, 03:17:23 AM »

Has no one noticed that the Beatles are also remixing their records? Even classics like Abbey Road that are about as perfectly mixed as makes no difference? (Many Beatles fans loathe them, too.) I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. But clearly there’s some thought in the industry that remastering isn’t enough — classic bands need to have their classic tracks mixed anew and with an ear toward current tastes.

As stated repeatedly on this thread, these mixes are not replacing those on the classic albums, which are widely available and simple to find. They are clearly labeled and dated alternates. If we want this music to live, it can’t sit on a shelf. It has to live in the world of earbuds and streaming, of loudness wars and Bluetooth, of YouTube clips and Spotify playlists.

And my God I’d rather Mark and Howie and Alan do this than Mike Love and LoCash…

Exactly. Sonic technology/listening is always evolving, hence no modern studio mixes in mono anymore. I’m just glad the people in charge of The Beach Boys music realize this as well, otherwise we wouldn’t have the absolutely amazing stereo mix of Pet Sounds that we have today.
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« Reply #219 on: June 19, 2022, 08:29:45 AM »

Just arrived today. Really impressed with packaging.

Great liner notes by Howie, pictures are fantastic. What a beautiful pic of Carl and Dennis ❤️
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« Reply #220 on: June 20, 2022, 10:05:09 AM »

“Old” mono mixes. “Crude” stereo separation. “Overly dense mixes”. “Less appealing”. “Overly dense” is a jab dude. And certainly not a “fact” as you say LOL. Calling relevant musical works “old” is a jab. When people are listening to Surfin Safari or I Get Around this summer, they are part of the moment whether OG mono or AI extractions.

That is trash talking the OG records. Besides, you ignored my point that the apparent intention is to make The Beach Boys’ original recordings more commercial for today’s audiences? As if this is preferable to presenting their historically important  and artistically relevant original recordings (yes, recordings).

It is what it is, but it’s odd to me we are at a point as fans where people are trashing the original productions/recordings, and defending reinventions of them with the argument they are more commercial? What the heck, you know? Bizarre.

Aside from that, I absolutely disagree that mono is not where it’s at. Mono is way hipper than stereo. Mono BB vinyl sells for higher prices at this point. It’s a selling point. Hang out in any record store. Sundazed and Rhino are well aware of this. Analog mixes and analog mastering is also a selling point.

There are plenty of potential ways to go with the back catalog. This is one of them but not the only one.

This isn't an either/or situation. The original mixes are all out there, and they are all still prevalent.

This isn't even an either/or situation anymore as far as what gets released. There was a period of time decades ago when it was a legit complaint that re-packagings were happening *instead* of archival releases and other interesting *new* product. That is no longer the case. The same team putting together great archival releases is also now able to put their efforts into re-issues and compilations, which *are going to happen regardless*. Isn't it the best case scenario to have those archival releases of previously unreleased material, and then also have that same team putting thought and effort into the best way to present a 60th anniversary hits comp that's inevitably going to come out and easily could have just been like the three 90s "Greatest Hits" CDs tossed into one compilation?

Your beef seems to be that the old mixes (yes, they are "old"; meaning they are from many many years ago; they came previously) are being "disrespected", which I think is ridiculous to tell to a group of HARDCORE Beach Boys fans. Most of us own the original mixes many times over, and few of us are saying we only ever pull out latter-day stereo remixes. Not only do we own those original mixes, they have been presented *multiple* times on physical media in relatively recent years. Capitol did a bunch of mono/stereo two-fers in 2012, Audio Fidelity did CD/SACD hybrids of much of the catalog. Most of the post-60s material still *hasn't* even been remixed, so it's mostly original mixes out there to this day exclusively.

If we want to get into the nitty gritty on judging old mixes, I don't think pointing out the downsides to *some* of them is any form of disrespect. To slavishly default to or always defer to the *first* mix of everything is, in my opinion, too narrow and insular. The nature of how some of the stuff was recorded and mixed *absolutely* buries a bunch of elements of some of those tracks. The '96 Pet Sounds stereo remix was a revelation. Tons more could be heard. It was a great *alternate/new* way to hear the album. And frankly, I usually *do* default to the stereo mix on that particular one. I love the mono mixes too. I like listening to those to get the original context for how they sounded when they came out, and I like to hear the sometimes dry relative sound of those mixes. And some are still the go-to. But not all. And liking a remix isn't a denigration of the original, or anybody who worked on it. *Especially* when the originals are by and large still there as well.

This isn't a Star Wars situation where the special effects and model work of the people who originally worked on those films has literally been erased, replaced, and the originals made no longer (officially) available.
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« Reply #221 on: June 20, 2022, 11:52:45 AM »

I can see both of your points. Hell, I’ve been making the same arguments about how the originals aren’t being replaced. And I like most of the new mixes.

That said, I’m realizing that Pet Sounds and Wild Honey aside, I do strongly prefer the original mono. Its not just limited to the Beach Boys either.
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« Reply #222 on: June 20, 2022, 11:55:41 AM »

“Old” mono mixes. “Crude” stereo separation. “Overly dense mixes”. “Less appealing”. “Overly dense” is a jab dude. And certainly not a “fact” as you say LOL. Calling relevant musical works “old” is a jab. When people are listening to Surfin Safari or I Get Around this summer, they are part of the moment whether OG mono or AI extractions.

That is trash talking the OG records. Besides, you ignored my point that the apparent intention is to make The Beach Boys’ original recordings more commercial for today’s audiences? As if this is preferable to presenting their historically important  and artistically relevant original recordings (yes, recordings).

It is what it is, but it’s odd to me we are at a point as fans where people are trashing the original productions/recordings, and defending reinventions of them with the argument they are more commercial? What the heck, you know? Bizarre.

Aside from that, I absolutely disagree that mono is not where it’s at. Mono is way hipper than stereo. Mono BB vinyl sells for higher prices at this point. It’s a selling point. Hang out in any record store. Sundazed and Rhino are well aware of this. Analog mixes and analog mastering is also a selling point.

There are plenty of potential ways to go with the back catalog. This is one of them but not the only one.

This isn't an either/or situation. The original mixes are all out there, and they are all still prevalent.

This isn't even an either/or situation anymore as far as what gets released. There was a period of time decades ago when it was a legit complaint that re-packagings were happening *instead* of archival releases and other interesting *new* product. That is no longer the case. The same team putting together great archival releases is also now able to put their efforts into re-issues and compilations, which *are going to happen regardless*. Isn't it the best case scenario to have those archival releases of previously unreleased material, and then also have that same team putting thought and effort into the best way to present a 60th anniversary hits comp that's inevitably going to come out and easily could have just been like the three 90s "Greatest Hits" CDs tossed into one compilation?

Your beef seems to be that the old mixes (yes, they are "old"; meaning they are from many many years ago; they came previously) are being "disrespected", which I think is ridiculous to tell to a group of HARDCORE Beach Boys fans. Most of us own the original mixes many times over, and few of us are saying we only ever pull out latter-day stereo remixes. Not only do we own those original mixes, they have been presented *multiple* times on physical media in relatively recent years. Capitol did a bunch of mono/stereo two-fers in 2012, Audio Fidelity did CD/SACD hybrids of much of the catalog. Most of the post-60s material still *hasn't* even been remixed, so it's mostly original mixes out there to this day exclusively.

If we want to get into the nitty gritty on judging old mixes, I don't think pointing out the downsides to *some* of them is any form of disrespect. To slavishly default to or always defer to the *first* mix of everything is, in my opinion, too narrow and insular. The nature of how some of the stuff was recorded and mixed *absolutely* buries a bunch of elements of some of those tracks. The '96 Pet Sounds stereo remix was a revelation. Tons more could be heard. It was a great *alternate/new* way to hear the album. And frankly, I usually *do* default to the stereo mix on that particular one. I love the mono mixes too. I like listening to those to get the original context for how they sounded when they came out, and I like to hear the sometimes dry relative sound of those mixes. And some are still the go-go. But not all. And liking a remix isn't a denigration of the original, or anybody who worked on it. *Especially* when the originals are by and large still there as well.

This isn't a Star Wars situation where the special effects and model work of the people who originally worked on those films has literally been erased, replaced, and the originals made no longer (officially) available.


Yes, saying “old overly dense mixes” while defending remixes is $hit talking the originals. Not sure how that’s is controversial or debatable.

And this tired argument of “the old mixes are now going away, not you have both!” misses my point, which I don’t care to make again as I’ve already made it above.

So- if someone added a bonus track of “Summer in Paradise” to the end of a Pet Sounds reissue and lots of people loved it, would you say “well if you don’t like hearing ‘Summer in Paradise’, you can just skip it. It’s not like the original track listing is going away!”?
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« Reply #223 on: June 20, 2022, 12:38:47 PM »

Yes, saying “old overly dense mixes” while defending remixes is $hit talking the originals. Not sure how that’s is controversial or debatable.

And this tired argument of “the old mixes are now going away, not you have both!” misses my point, which I don’t care to make again as I’ve already made it above.

So- if someone added a bonus track of “Summer in Paradise” to the end of a Pet Sounds reissue and lots of people loved it, would you say “well if you don’t like hearing ‘Summer in Paradise’, you can just skip it. It’s not like the original track listing is going away!”?

"Old, overly dense mixes" is certainly a critical point of view. Is it "s**t talking?" I think that's kind of a preposterous overreaction considering that I don't think anybody was asserting *all* or even *most* of the vintage mixes are bad or "too dense." I think it's unavoidable that some generalizations have to be made when talking about the overall ethos of remixing. Saying "sometimes a fresh remix can liberate a song from old, muddier mix" is not like just s**tting on all vintage mixes.

Again, more than any place else I can think of, this board is full of people who hold the vintage stuff in very high esteem. I've been on this board for 17 or whatever years, and I don't recall much of any *s**t talking" of original mixes.

The "Summer in Paradise" example is not anything close to a fair comparison to remixes being placed on a compilation reissue/expansion.

Unless one is arguing the original sanctity/integrity of the 2003 initial release of "Sounds of Summer", then there's nothing else this new SOS set is replacing or even standing as an alternate version of. It's a new item, with new remixes.

If an SIP track was put on a "Pet Sounds" CD, then someone, I guess, might get the impression someone is trying to imply the song is part of the album or part of those sessions somehow. How is that analogous to this new SOS set? It's a compilation spanning around 30 years of music, and jumps from era to era. The only real criteria a track needs to be on the set is that it's Beach Boys (and even then I wouldn't bust a blood vessel if they licensed "Almost Summer" or a solo track here or there or whatever).
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« Reply #224 on: June 20, 2022, 12:48:38 PM »

Yeh but this kind of thing is like “ha wow I wish The Beach Boys weren’t on Full House.” Some will say, well just don’t watch it. But the gripe is not about the person who doesn’t like The Beach Boys on Full House. It’s about a greater concern for the way the group is presented.

It’s not about not doing anything that Carl can’t sign off on. To me, I’m curious as to why there was any kind of desire to endlessly remix the tracks like this in the first place, and to include them in place of the original (IMO tasteful, artful, and definitive) versions on a high profile release such as this.

What *new* fan is complaining about this new SOS set? The only complaints I see are from a hand full of hardcore fans who prefer the original mixes. How is this SOS set presentation harming the band and how it comes across to the "masses" or "new fans?"

With the "Full House" situation, I can point easily to it being a cheesy, s**tty sitcom where the band has ceased becoming a musical group being taken seriously and is just a bit novelty/joke.

I can't say anything similar when it comes to remixes of old tracks, even ones *I* don't like. It's just plain not nearly as "injurious" to the band's legacy or career. The audiophile types who pore over this stuff already love it enough (at least, I'll just assume they do) to pore over it in the first place. They're not going anywhere. The question then becomes do fresh remixes bring in more fans/new blood/attention/buzz/clout/cool than they turn away. I think that's an easy "yes." I don't think new, hipster fans streaming this or buying vinyl will poo-poo these new remixes, with *nothing* and *no context* to compare them to, to the point where they'll decide *not* be get into the music.

I don't think, certainly among any currently mainstream in print versions, there is a mix of a Beach Boys song out there that would turn off someone who would be predisposed to liking the music/song. I don't think this theoretical 20-year-old is going to hear "Help Me Rhonda" on streaming and say "hrrmmmm, I dunno, the panning of the stereo overdubs don't sound quite right, I'm not sure if I'm down with digital extractions..." and just walk away from being a fan. I don't think it works like that at all. I don't think any of us can like paint every possible scenario for how people get into the music, but among the myriad I can think, many, many more of those theoretical/imaginary scenarios involve someone *getting into* the music from this compilation, not being turned off by it.
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