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675286 Posts in 27260 Topics by 4020 Members - Latest Member: woowoomachine July 06, 2022, 04:13:46 PM
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Author Topic: Carl and MSIA  (Read 3275 times)
patsy6
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« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2022, 11:39:27 AM »

Carl briefly mentions John-Roger and MSIA in this 1983 interview. https://youtu.be/vpG7AL2UF4E
thank you
I forgot to mention that the John-Roger reference comes at about 12:45 in the video.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 11:44:22 AM by patsy6 » Logged
El Molé
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2022, 12:44:52 AM »

Slightly off topic, but it sounds like a lovely version of “I Wish For You” playing in the background. Is it just Carl performing live for this organisation (i.e. the audio from the short shots of Carl with guitar in the video)?
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patsy6
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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2022, 04:01:24 PM »

Slightly off topic, but it sounds like a lovely version of “I Wish For You” playing in the background. Is it just Carl performing live for this organisation (i.e. the audio from the short shots of Carl with guitar in the video)?
It appears so.
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2022, 07:22:21 PM »

Was MSIA the same organization he wrote "Where I Belong" for?
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2022, 08:19:04 PM »

Was MSIA the same organization he wrote "Where I Belong" for?
Although John-Roger, founder of MSIA, claimed that Carl wrote "Where I Belong" for them, I think you'd have to talk to Robert White Johnson about that. He wrote the lyrics for that song, and Carl wrote the music.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 08:20:02 PM by patsy6 » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2022, 07:50:31 AM »

Carl led a private life. I think he was a really good guy, as many of his friends/colleagues have said over the years. I don't know much about MSIA, but one thing to consider, is that celebrities like Carl probably were treated differently than the average member. If John-Roger was as powerful and bad as people have said, he probably knew to hide that stuff from the big names. Carl could very well been insulated from that. It's all speculation, though. Another factor to consider is that John-Roger, in his own way, could control people, maybe like Landy with Brian. We probably won't ever know the extent of their relationship.

If he wrote Where I Belong as an ode to MSIA, that's fine, it's a great song.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 07:51:08 AM by Join The Human Race » Logged
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2022, 08:30:33 AM »



That was 1987. Carl was indeed labeled a "celebrity minister" and mentioned in reports on the group. The suspicious activities and questions surrounding this organization and its founder/leader John-Roger surfaced multiple times in the late 80's into the 90's, specifically driven by an expose published by the LA Times in 1988 and other subsequent articles that picked up on the story. A previous executive from the organization published a book with all kinds of allegations against the group and its leader, including financial, moral, and even sexual misconduct detailed. Then it surfaced again when Arianna Huffington became a media and political figure in the 90's and her and her family's connections to the group were questioned in the press when the Huffington name was going on the election ballots. The celebrity press covered the group due to its lavish black-tie awards ceremonies featuring a lot of famous people showing up at these gala events and getting awards. That's where the photo above came from, when Carl received an "adjunct" Integrity Award or something in 1987.

In one of the expose articles, it was revealed through tax documents that Carl had donated over $200,000 to the organization, whether it was in the course of one year or several wasn't made clear. The group apparently demanded a percentage cut from their wealthy followers in perpetuity, which is coincidentally also what the Maharishi demanded of his famous devotees (and The Beatles refused).  And the organization's founder meanwhile lived a lavish lifestyle with all the trappings of modern non-religious wealth and excess, coming also from a supposed "religious exemption" through non-profit status the group had filed and coffers full of donations.

It seems like another Jim Bakker deal as with most of these groups through the decades, how they sucker people into sending thousands of dollars as the "leader" lives in extreme wealth while selling religious and spiritual philosophies and "methods" and "courses" to the followers and demanding donations is beyond me, but they're good salesmen. That's the only editorial I'll give on the whole deal.
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2022, 10:48:02 PM »

What I find puzzling about Carl and this organization; if he was so big into it, why wasn't he prosletizing for the group? There was no mention of them in the liner notes of his solo albums; and I'm only aware of one interview where he talked about them. Now how many times have we seen Mike Love talk about the benefits of TM?
I suspect it was a way and a life that he felt was beneficial to him, but he didn't have any desire to push it on anyone else.
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2022, 01:58:34 AM »

What I find puzzling about Carl and this organization; if he was so big into it, why wasn't he prosletizing for the group? There was no mention of them in the liner notes of his solo albums; and I'm only aware of one interview where he talked about them. Now how many times have we seen Mike Love talk about the benefits of TM?
I suspect it was a way and a life that he felt was beneficial to him, but he didn't have any desire to push it on anyone else.

I think these kinds of groups can be more like more "ordinary" organized religions than people realize...in that while, yes, there's often corruption and different kinds of abuse in the mix, and there are always some members who become so extreme or single-minded in their devotion that it becomes a detriment to other aspects of their lives, I think even cults often have a significant subset of members who are just getting the same thing from them that a lot of people get from being christian and going to church on Sunday - a sense of spiritual stability, community, and purpose in their lives.
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patsy6
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« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2022, 10:29:40 AM »

What I find puzzling about Carl and this organization; if he was so big into it, why wasn't he prosletizing for the group? There was no mention of them in the liner notes of his solo albums; and I'm only aware of one interview where he talked about them. Now how many times have we seen Mike Love talk about the benefits of TM?
I suspect it was a way and a life that he felt was beneficial to him, but he didn't have any desire to push it on anyone else.

From the Wikipedia page for Movement for Spiritual Inner Awareness:  "MSIA considers itself a church in very few traditional senses of the word. A deeply ambivalent attitude towards traditional "religiosity" characterizes the "Movement." While it is legally incorporated as a church and provides tools and techniques for Soul transcendence for those who are looking for them, it prohibits members from evangelizing; it spreads primarily by word of mouth. MSIA has no program of building churches or other buildings, giving it similarities with other 'churches without walls.' It ordains ministers, but ordains no one to preach or teach, only to be of service. Service choices are determined entirely individually. MSIA has only vague and wide guidelines here."
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« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2022, 10:49:21 AM »

I'd also venture to say that had Carl strongly proselytized within the group, or even more so if he had done so with the public at large via concerts (or liner notes, or whatever), that may not have gone over well in the uber-political BB universe/organization. Especially into the 80s and 90s.
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« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2022, 09:53:14 PM »

What I find puzzling about Carl and this organization; if he was so big into it, why wasn't he prosletizing for the group? There was no mention of them in the liner notes of his solo albums; and I'm only aware of one interview where he talked about them. Now how many times have we seen Mike Love talk about the benefits of TM?
I suspect it was a way and a life that he felt was beneficial to him, but he didn't have any desire to push it on anyone else.

It probably speaks for Carl that he didn't do this. The TM stuff was quirky enough (even though it had its charms whenever Brian chose to write a song about it) but that was enough for one band I guess, it would've been very odd if Carl had pushed his personal beliefs into their music and public appearances in the same way that Mike did.
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patsy6
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2022, 03:37:37 PM »

What I find puzzling about Carl and this organization; if he was so big into it, why wasn't he prosletizing for the group? There was no mention of them in the liner notes of his solo albums; and I'm only aware of one interview where he talked about them. Now how many times have we seen Mike Love talk about the benefits of TM?
I suspect it was a way and a life that he felt was beneficial to him, but he didn't have any desire to push it on anyone else.

It probably speaks for Carl that he didn't do this. The TM stuff was quirky enough (even though it had its charms whenever Brian chose to write a song about it) but that was enough for one band I guess, it would've been very odd if Carl had pushed his personal beliefs into their music and public appearances in the same way that Mike did.
It's not just Carl, though. MSIA members, even ministers, are instructed to not evangelize/proselytize, and to only be of service.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2022, 06:30:09 AM »

While the indication is that the idea with the organization was not to evangelize/proselytize, the idea that it was to be brought to people via "word of mouth" certainly allows for some wiggle room. At what point is a person telling you about a thing, and how much they think it's great, a form of evangelizing, etc. simply on an individual basis rather than trying to sell it to groups of people?

In any event, it's certainly true that Carl did not go around harping on this thing all the time, to the point that many don't even know about his membership in the organization.

When cases like this come up (there are some obvious well-known cases of other big celebrities and well known organizations), the degree to which people find it problematic occurs on multiple levels. If the celebrity does actively try to sell others on it, that can be viewed as problematic. And then, separately, simple membership in the organization can be viewed as problematic by some based on the idea of viewing an organization as sufficiently problematic that fans or spectators find it impossible to ignore even when the celebrity doesn't proselytize, and also based on the idea that even the knowledge of this celebrity's membership is enough of an endorsement as to be problematic.

There are some obvious cases in modern times with some famous people where members of the public differ on how much of a problem it is when a famous person is a member of an organization that they find problematic, even if that celebrity doesn't actively try to recruit people, etc. Every person is going to come at this from a different point of view.

For me, I obviously would like to have more information before I write some huge essay on Carl's affiliation with this organization. As I've mentioned before, nothing about it makes me feel *better* about Carl (and, as I've also mentioned, the degree to which what I or anybody think even matters is quite debatable). It helps a little bit to put his persona and life, such as we're familiar with it, in perspective and context.

I don't view it as a flattering aspect of Carl's life, but again, a strong case can be made that what any fan thinks doesn't matter much. At the end of the day, it doesn't make me think he was a bad guy, and it certainly doesn't make me disassociate from his art. It appears he was a really great, loving guy whose friends held him in high regard (again, as I've said in the past, it speaks volumes that 24 years after his death, his friends and family still keep his privacy). This affiliation with this organization just seems to be something that I think many, taking the full scope of the organization into account, would find unfortunate. How much to lay all of that in the lap of Carl or his life or legacy is rather unclear without more information, which I suspect we may never get.
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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2022, 07:01:11 AM »

I think the issue more people would have is with the group itself, and its founder/leader, and possibly asking as a follow-up point how and why did successful people who managed multi-million dollar lives get involved in the first place, and not see what observers outside the bubble of membership could see as plain as day. That's always a fascinating question, and when large sums of money are involved it becomes even more of a mystery.

In this case, it was on the record that Carl gave at least $200,000 to this man and his organization, and who knows how much more was given in the years after that information was published in the LA Times.

That money could very well have gone to buy this leader a new luxury car, fund another luxury appointment for one of his mansions, buy a wardrobe of expensive clothes, funded a vacation home in some tropical resort,...etc...who knows. That's what I don't understand about these groups, those especially with religious and non-profit status exemptions, who most often get exposed when the leadership is found to have been spending the donations on their own luxurious lifestyles when the donors themselves gave their money to support and promote the organization's goals and work, NOT the millionaire lifestyles of the founders.

It's a story that has been repeated time and time again, and it always begs the question why would reasonably intelligent and successful people willingly fund these leaders and their sociopathic, narcissistic lifestyles which are on full view for anyone to see. You could make a list of just the most public figures who sold religion and spirituality as products which they then funded their own "Lifestyles Of The Rich And Famous" behaviors until they were exposed or their behaviors were revealed.

Again I'll say maybe they were and are just great salesmen, hucksters, and skilled con artists who have a talent for hustling people, and who use religious and spiritual pursuits and philosophies to do so. But the question is how did people like Carl not see what was going on or even continue to support this behavior through donations after it was exposed? Or did he?
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