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Author Topic: Carol Kaye is at it again!  (Read 4506 times)
Robbie Mac
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« on: January 23, 2022, 09:57:56 AM »

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2022, 10:23:03 AM »

What now?
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2022, 11:47:44 AM »

https://www.facebook.com/100021798276932/posts/1115017215901544/?d=n
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2022, 04:31:43 PM »

At it again?  She's been at it without ceasing for the last 30 years...

That said, I don't blame her for getting confused by some of the contracts -- there were lots of covers of the early Beach Boys numbers that she did, that she was not on originally.  Then there are several where she was on the session as a guitarist, but not as a bassist, like God Only Knows or I'm Waiting for the Day. 

And I don't blame anybody for being confused by the Good Vibrations situation.  I don't know that there is an onus on anybody at the AF of M to sort that out -- just pay everybody who played on a session the re-use and call it good.  That said, for people that care enough to sort it out for the sake of the historical record, it is sort-out-able.

Anyway, just ignore her.
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2022, 08:15:17 PM »

I didn’t know In My Room was on Pet Sounds  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2022, 08:53:56 PM »

How 'bout an executive summary for those of us without a facebook account?
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2022, 08:50:22 AM »

How 'bout an executive summary for those of us without a facebook account?

The link doesn’t work for you? I thought direct links worked even without an account, but maybe I am wrong. Brief summary is she says she’s on bass for all of Pet Sounds, except Here Today, I Know There’s An Answer, and I Just Wasn’t Made for Those Times. She still claims to be on Surfin’ USA and I Get Around, based on the covers of those songs she played on. In My Room features her as well and is on Pet Sounds - did she play on a cover of this one too? She doesn’t make any of her Motown claims here but says her book is coming soon and will set the record straight. “Carl only played on 2-3 of these.” Barbara Ann was one of the band’s earlier singles, according to her, and features The Beach Boys and Hal Blaine. It’s an interesting post, to say the least.

Joshilyn, do you think she’s accurate regarding (at least some of) the Dano vs Fender comments she makes here?
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2022, 01:53:03 PM »

How 'bout an executive summary for those of us without a facebook account?

The link doesn’t work for you? I thought direct links worked even without an account, but maybe I am wrong. Brief summary is she says she’s on bass for all of Pet Sounds, except Here Today, I Know There’s An Answer, and I Just Wasn’t Made for Those Times. She still claims to be on Surfin’ USA and I Get Around, based on the covers of those songs she played on. In My Room features her as well and is on Pet Sounds - did she play on a cover of this one too? She doesn’t make any of her Motown claims here but says her book is coming soon and will set the record straight. “Carl only played on 2-3 of these.” Barbara Ann was one of the band’s earlier singles, according to her, and features The Beach Boys and Hal Blaine. It’s an interesting post, to say the least.

Joshilyn, do you think she’s accurate regarding (at least some of) the Dano vs Fender comments she makes here?


To reiterate, her book came out about 7 years ago -- she copy/pastes old material and reposts the same stuff over and over again, so this is not a new assertion on her part.

She did play danelectro bass on Please Let Me Wonder, Ray wasn't on that at all, just the one bass.
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2022, 06:53:19 AM »

What about her claim that studio footage (which I can only assume is the GV session footage unearthed about ten years ago) is staged? Is she just deflecting because she's not in any of that footage? How difficult would it be to point out that film cameras only captured that one session, and that it captured the footage essentially in "b-roll" mode?

I could totally envision individual moments being staged for the camera, like Brian talking to musicians, etc.

But I mean, that was a real session, right? That would be a lot of money and effort to 100% fabricate a session (paying for singers, musicians, and studio time) just to shoot b-roll footage that ultimately went unused.
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2022, 07:02:39 AM »

What about her claim that studio footage (which I can only assume is the GV session footage unearthed about ten years ago) is staged? Is she just deflecting because she's not in any of that footage? How difficult would it be to point out that film cameras only captured that one session, and that it captured the footage essentially in "b-roll" mode?

I could totally envision individual moments being staged for the camera, like Brian talking to musicians, etc.

But I mean, that was a real session, right? That would be a lot of money and effort to 100% fabricate a session (paying for singers, musicians, and studio time) just to shoot b-roll footage that ultimately went unused.

It's a real session.  As is the vocal session.  Carol has called many other studio photos staged over the years, not just the Beach Boys footage.  I can't imagine why...she just has issues.

Incidentally, yes, that GV footage is a real tracking session at Western 3, from June 16th, 1966, and the rest of it really needs to be made available.
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2022, 12:08:32 PM »

It was a real, 7 hour session, part of which was filmed. The Smile Sessions box set disc 5, tracks 14-16 are from that date. I'm sure it was deflection because she wasn't at that date - but that session didn't produce anything in the final mix either!
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2022, 03:21:26 PM »

I really do cut the people that were there a lot of slack- mainly out of respect for them, and the understanding that no ill will is intended on their part IMO. This comes from having known personally some people who were in the LA scene back then ... taking everything with a grain of salt just comes with the territory. I remember Durrie Parks talking about the "Day in the Life of a Tree" session (where she said she was present- no reason not to believe that), and innocently & casually asking me, "Was that before or after SMILE?"

I also was friends w/ Sky Saxon- we were in my house recording with my various tape machines around- and I asked him about the gear used on the Seeds records. He said, "We always used only the thickest 2" tape ... and all of our records were pressed on thick vinyl only" (presumably, the Seeds records were cut on 1/2" 4-track and maybe 1" 8-track? Could have been a 16-track 2" later in the game maybe) ... it was almost charming to hear this stuff TBH. Because that's how he remembered it! ... *he also looked at the BB poster (from the '68 tour book) on my wall while we were recording and threw in the line "Oh Yahowha sang 'Good Vibrations' ..."!

Personally, I *like* Carol Kaye. I actually emailed her a LONG LONG time ago- for a community college paper I was writing I think about her - must have been 20 years ago. I was so thrilled with how helpful she was in her responses, and yes she was personable.

I really liked Durrie too (very sweet lady- she used to pick me up in her vintage yellow VW beetle and we'd head to Applebee's!) and Sky Saxon was a sweetheart of a man. Those are the things that matter. Not online arguments. I bet Carol Kaye is a swell lady to spent some time with.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 03:25:09 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2022, 03:56:20 PM »

You make a good point, Donny, that the internet tends to highlight, perhaps artificially, the most fraught aspects of any interaction.

Our little corner of music history is a very fertile field of examples of all the different cognitive weirdnesses of memory and the effect of temporal distance from places and events on the brain.

What a sweet memory of hitting up the Applebees with Durrie, that is very sweet.
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2022, 04:25:26 PM »

You make a good point, Donny, that the internet tends to highlight, perhaps artificially, the most fraught aspects of any interaction.

Our little corner of music history is a very fertile field of examples of all the different cognitive weirdnesses of memory and the effect of temporal distance from places and events on the brain.

What a sweet memory of hitting up the Applebees with Durrie, that is very sweet.

You put it much more succinctly than I ha … and yes- it blows my mind that it’s been more than 20 years since those days in my own life!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 04:27:46 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2022, 10:45:52 AM »

Honestly, I would leave her alone. One somewhat kooky old lady isn’t going to convince the whole world the BBs didn’t play on their records. The AFM contracts speak for themselves.
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2022, 11:10:40 AM »

Honestly, I would leave her alone. One somewhat kooky old lady isn’t going to convince the whole world the BBs didn’t play on their records. The AFM contracts speak for themselves.

 w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! My exact thoughts, SB. Leave her the hell alone and move on!!
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2022, 06:45:48 AM »

Honestly, I would leave her alone. One somewhat kooky old lady isn’t going to convince the whole world the BBs didn’t play on their records. The AFM contracts speak for themselves.

Not to mention the fact that many of the session tapes, or excerpts thereof, are readily available on bootlegs and copyright-extension releases. Folks can HEAR for themselves the Boys playing instruments on many of their tracks.
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2022, 08:18:34 AM »

I have a hypothesis as to why Carol, and some other WC members, remember playing on BBs songs that they didn't.

And that's because they played on COUNTLESS BB covers, many of which were regional or national hits...

Let's begin with Bruce Johnston's (who would soon be a BB producing BB records) early productions for the 'Hot Doggers' album which included versions of Surfin', Surfin' Safari, and Surfin' USA. Those backing tracks were all played 100% by the Boys on their recordings (with Frank Devito enhancing drums on USA) .   But it was the WC, with Carol, who played on those tracks back in '63. Bruce would also record 409, ShutDown, Hawaii and LDC with Bruce&Terry and The Rip Chords--- again all songs played by the Boys on their records, but played by the WC on these versions.

Then you also have Jan Berry. crafting many arrangements of BBs songs, that the Boys originally played on. During the timeframe of 1962-1964, and even still through 1966 up until his automobile accident, Jan was a mentor to Brian. By the time Brian was just getting started, Jan had been in the biz for years, producing over 10 regional hits and 2 Gold records. Brian was constantly in the studio for Jan's sessions soaking up everything he could, and Jan's influence shows in Brian's masterworks of the mid 60's. I bring this up only to say that it's likely Brian could have been, or even played on, any of these J&D sessions, sometimes undocumented, to avoid label issues.... Anyway,   While the BBs themselves provided the backing on J&D's Surfin' and Surfin' Safari cuts, the WC provided the backing tracks on Jan Berry's arrangements of Little Deuce Coupe (Which Brian was allegedly in the studio for), Little Honda, I Get Around and Sidewalk Surfin (CatchAWave), all of which were songs the Boys played (with added WC percussion, Dano, and saxes on IGA)

Finally you have Gary Usher producing many BBs covers with his various acts, all using the WC, Little Honda (Superstocks and Hondells), Dance Dance Dance (Surfaris) [Another mostly BB played track, with additional percussion and guitars from WC], Little Deuce Coupe (Surfaris), and Don't Hurt My Little Sister (again a BB played song) with the Surfaris.



While it's very annoying to us BB diehards for Carol to wrongly claim to play on so many BBs cuts, it can make a little more sense when you remember she played on all those cover versions by people in The BBs orbit like Bruce, Jan Berry, and Gary Usher.

I say this not necessarily as a defense, because while I having nothing but respect for Carol's musical work, she was always extremely rude to me in online conversation, either chewing me out or censoring my comments, and her dubious claims about Surfin USA, Motown, Hal Blaine, etc get very old. It seems like everyone from the WC really had fond memories of those years, feeling a sense of being a team, hell even a family! It seems like most of them felt that way except for Carol. I can recall many interviews of Hal and Glen talking about those days being the best of their lives with a certain boyish glow when describing the era.  Typically, Carol has a jaded venomous tone when discussing the era and her 'peers'. She frequently detracts from the work of others, to boost herself up. Hal and Glen never needed to do that. James Jamerson, Hal Blaine, Jan Berry, the BBs other than Brian, even The Beatles, come to mind as people Carol has talked down upon or not given due credit to. Despite their jazz training or preferences, most of the WC guys like Hal embraced what they did and felt like peers with the artists and producers who made these iconic classics. Carol talks like she was the saving grace of those knuckleheads' pitiful recordings. It's sad.
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2022, 06:25:28 PM »

Honestly, I would leave her alone. One somewhat kooky old lady isn’t going to convince the whole world the BBs didn’t play on their records. The AFM contracts speak for themselves.

 w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! My exact thoughts, SB. Leave her the hell alone and move on!!

It's a special thrill to agree 100% with the Legendary OSD. Smiley

Yes, leaving her alone would be a good idea. Not every subject needs to be overanalysed!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 06:26:27 PM by Zenobi » Logged
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