Dennis and Bruce as Beach Boys

[matt-zeus]

MIU rules!!!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Dennis....did indeed badmouth M.I.U. publicly, and quite frankly his quote is one of the best put-downs of an album I've ever heard, and a very justified one at that!

In your opinion of course....

I see no positive value in Dennis publicly demeaning a new Beach Boys' album. If Dennis needed to vent, there were other more appropriate times/places to do it, namely in one of their infamous meetings, or at the very least, face-to-face one-on-one with the songwriter in question. Dennis was a member of a band, and instead of taking shots at the band, maybe he could've contributed something positive - like a song! - to that band.

[Bicyclerider]

As Jon pointed out, Dennis's PERSONALITY was an essential ingredient in the identity of the band - surf and cars were Dennis's thing - and girls of course.  Bruce's personality . . . well, I'm sure he's a nice guy but his songs for the  BEach Boys have always been lacking in that department IMO.  Too mellow, laid back . . . safe.  It's the weird edges on BB music that make it so distinctive.  And Dennis had edge.

But if you look at time put in as a Beach Boy, Bruce certainly qualifies as a bona fide equal member - he was never made a partner in the BB corporation however, was he?

[Jon Stebbins]

Dennis....did indeed badmouth M.I.U. publicly, and quite frankly his quote is one of the best put-downs of an album I've ever heard, and a very justified one at that!

In your opinion of course....

I see no positive value in Dennis publicly demeaning a new Beach Boys' album. If Dennis needed to vent, there were other more appropriate times/places to do it, namely in one of their infamous meetings, or at the very least, face-to-face one-on-one with the songwriter in question. Dennis was a member of a band, and instead of taking shots at the band, maybe he could've contributed something positive - like a song! - to that band.

Like a song? Are you serious? Dennis had probably 30 quality songs in the can during MIU, any of which he would have been delighted to give to the Beach Boys.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Dennis....did indeed badmouth M.I.U. publicly, and quite frankly his quote is one of the best put-downs of an album I've ever heard, and a very justified one at that!

In your opinion of course....

I see no positive value in Dennis publicly demeaning a new Beach Boys' album. If Dennis needed to vent, there were other more appropriate times/places to do it, namely in one of their infamous meetings, or at the very least, face-to-face one-on-one with the songwriter in question. Dennis was a member of a band, and instead of taking shots at the band, maybe he could've contributed something positive - like a song! - to that band.

Like a song? Are you serious? Dennis had probably 30 quality songs in the can during MIU, any of which he would have been delighted to give to the Beach Boys.

That's my point, Jon. Why didn't Dennis contribute one or two of those quality songs to MIU, to make it a better album, instead of taking shots at it? You're right, I would've been delighted.

Maybe you can answer a question that I've had for a long time concerning the MIU recording, although I think I know what your response will be. This is my question...

It was obvious Mike and Al were hard up for new material. They recorded two covers ("Come Go With Me" and "Peggy Sue"), went back into the archives ("Hey Little Tomboy" and "Diane"), re-worked an oldie ("Hawaii" into "Kona Coast"), and even went outside the group which was almost unprecedented ("Winds Of Change").

Ok, here's the question. What if Dennis (and/or Carl) would've caught a plane and flown to Iowa (?), hugged and shook hands with Mike, Al, and Brian, offered the olive branch if you will. What if Dennis would've said, "Hey guys, I've written a lot of songs over the last few years. Here's a couple that I think would sound pretty good on the new album. Do you wanna hear them?"

It's easy to opine that Mike and Al would say, "Go to hell. We're making a Beach Boys' album here. Keep your personal songs for your next solo album." BUT I DON'T THINK THEY DID OR WOULD HAVE. I think Mike and Al would've appreciated Dennis' offer, and welcomed his songs. Is there any concrete evidence that Dennis offered songs to the band that were rejected. What were the songs and who rejected them?   

[Jeff Mason]

Given that the famous blowouts between the Wilsons and the TM faction had already happened, why do you think that would be the case?  Isn't that optimistic?  I mean the only reason that Denny's tracks made it to LA IMO is that the head of CBS was thumping the band for its lousy material and they had to take drastic action -- like swallowing pride and using a Denny song (shudder).  I think that there was a LOT of jealousy going on then.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yes, I might be thinking unrealistically, but...

1) Mike loved The Beach Boys more than anything else, and wanted them to be successful for a number of reasons. If Dennis' songs could've contributed to that success, I don't think Mike (or Al) would've rejected Dennis' songs. And it's not like any of Mike's songs would've been bumped.

2) I think that many of the Beach Boys' disputes/disagreements, while intense in nature, were quickly put into the background - so the group could continue. The group always came first, unfortunately. I mean, look at the collaborations between MIKE & DENNIS of all people! While the latest riff (the Labor Day 1977 blow out) was a big one, it DIDN'T break up the band. And they eventually would come together again. MIU would've been a good start.

3) While I agree that the group was scrambling for material during the L.A. (Light Album) debacle with the record company, I felt that the band included Dennis' songs more as a reaction to the success of Pacific Ocean Blue. The guys had to think, "Hey, this guy on a roll here. Let's see if we can capitalize on it."

I'd still like to read an interview or something - with a reliable source (which I know is hard to find) - which recalls the band rejecting songs from Dennis.

[Jon Stebbins]

They are STILL rejecting songs from Dennis. The original proposed track list of Warmth of the Sun included Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again(great song)...guess who shot that down? Not Alan Boyd.

Nearly every BB's insider I have interviewed has told me they constantly rejected Dennis' songs. That WHY he had 30 or 40 songs in the can, and still has about 30 masters in the can. I have no agenda to "convince" you or anybody else, i just report what I have learned. If I learn something to the contrary, like "Mike is actually a really good guy"(see Dave Marks book) then i report that as well.

[Dancing Bear]

Dennis had an excellent quota of songs per album between 1968 and 1973. In 1971 the matter was with Carl WILSON.

What happened between 1973-76 that his songs started to be rejected, beginning with "15 Big Ones"?

[Sheriff John Stone]

They are STILL rejecting songs from Dennis. The original proposed track list of Warmth of the Sun included Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again(great song)...guess who shot that down?

Mike Love only has one vote. I hesitate to blame the group for not releasing a Dennis song that Dennis himself didn't release when he had the opportunity.

[Jeff Mason]

Endless Bummer?  The rejection of the artistically valid direction of the BB in favor of celebration of a long over past?  The oldies jukebox?  Mike Love taking the reins over Carl Wilson?

And in 1971, I think that Carl was involved more as a diplomat as opposed to hating Denny's stuff.  In fact, wasn't the issue that Denny wanted "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" as album closer (to follow "Till I Die" thematically) and Carl knew that Surf's Up had to be the closer (and Denny opposed SU being on the album IIRC)?

[Bicyclerider]

What Carl songs are you referring to?  Carl only wrote a handful of songs for the Beach Boys, he was not prolific the way Dennis was.

And why did Mike reject or just not ask Dennis for songs?  Same reason he didn't like Till I Die, perhaps?  He wanted "upbeat, optimistic" songs not "downers" or "melancholy songs."  MIU was an Alan and Mike project, with Ron (from Celebration, Mike's project) assisting with production and even songwriting.  Although you can fault the songs, I've always thought the production was actually well done, if a bit self consciously retro after the forward thinking Love You.

[Jeff Mason]

It sounds professional enough, does MIU, but it's strictly BB by the numbers, sterile and dull.  And at its worst embarrassing.

[Sheriff John Stone]

And why did Mike reject or just not ask Dennis for songs?  Same reason he didn't like Till I Die, perhaps?  He wanted "upbeat, optimistic" songs not "downers" or "melancholy songs."

Upbeat, optimistic songs like "Student Demonstration Time", "Everyone's In Love With You", "Matchpoint Of Our Love", "Sumahama", and "Goin' On"?

[matt-zeus]

Compared to the MOR cack that is LA and KTSA, MIU sounds like a garage band, I really like the production, its sort of quite raw with a bit of gloss. It may be a dumb album but its enjoyable to listen to, its fun and thats more than I can say for the albums afterwards.

[the captain]

They are STILL rejecting songs from Dennis. The original proposed track list of Warmth of the Sun included Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again(great song)...guess who shot that down? Not Alan Boyd.

That is amazing--I just about said "I don't believe it!" but...I do believe it. With all the fans clamoring to hear this recording, for it to be voted down is just astounding. And I'm not even a big Dennis fan. Still, he was obviously remarkably gifted (as were they all, in one way or another), and for him to have such an output of recorded material just sitting there... Wow. I hope it's all been saved to some digital format, anyway, so when the tapes decay away while the surviving voters fight, the songs will survive. Maybe the grandkids will release the stuff.

[shelter]

So for the above reasons, it may be thought, Bruce has contributed more to the Beach Boys than Dennis.

Even if Bruce contributed more in terms of quantity, he never had any influence on the musical direction the band went in (except for maybe when LA Light Album was recorded), for as far as I can tell. Dennis had.

[thomasogg]

I can't believe 'Wouldn't It,,' was due for an official release and it got sidelined. And what Denny song did they use instead? 'Forever' - yet again! I just stuck a post on the other day, about how i personally feel that the band were, and still are, intimidated by Dennis' talent, and so it's constantly played down. 'Hey, he did 'Forever', it was great, and that's about it folks' seems to be the impression constantly given. I didn't know 'Wouldn't It..' was due for inclusion on TWOTS when I sent my post the other day, but this only goes to highlight exactly what i was saying. And how can it be possibly argued that it was in any way Dennis' fault his songs weren't being included on albums? His songs were left off Surf's Up entirely, 'Carry Me Home' was taken off Holland despite it's obvious quality, 'Pacific Ocean Blues' was excluded from 15 Big Ones.. I guess by the time of MIU he'd just had enough. Or maybe he'd just heard some of the recordings for the album and decided he wanted as little involvment with it as possible. He'd contributed the great 'Holy Evening' to the proposed xmas album of the same year, only to find that the rest of said album consisted of rehashed 'Landlocked' material or terrible covers such as 'Seasons in the Sun'. If no-one else can be bothered making an effort, he most probably thought, then why should he?

[the captain]

And how can it be possibly argued that it was in any way Dennis' fault his songs weren't being included on albums?

I think you answer your own question.

Or maybe he'd just heard some of the recordings for the album and decided he wanted as little involvment with it as possible. He'd contributed the great 'Holy Evening' to the proposed xmas album of the same year, only to find that the rest of said album consisted of rehashed 'Landlocked' material or terrible covers such as 'Seasons in the Sun'. If no-one else can be bothered making an effort, he most probably thought, then why should he?

It is possible that, if his previous attempts to get things his way were not granted, he stopped making them. However, that's something I don't know, and J. Stebbins certainly made it sound above like that wasn't the case--that Dennis did indeed want material released. And Mr. Stebbins would know.

Out of curiosity, what rehashed Landlocked material do you mean was to be on the 70s Xmas album other than Loop de loop? I know some of those were older recordings that were touched up (Child of Winter), but usually I think "Landlocked material" refers to the early running order of what became Surf's Up, and it doesn't have any of the rest of the Xmas lineup.

[John]

There was "Santa's On His Way", which was "H.E.L.P. is on the way" and "Santa's Got An Airplane" which was "Loop-De-Loop"; they're kind of Landlocked stuff.

"Winter Symphony" is better than "Holy Evening" though. They're the only decent tracks there anyway though...

[the captain]

Yes, Loop de Loop I knew (see above), but I hadn't heard -- or heard of -- the other. It didn't even make Ultimate Christmas? That's a bad sign...because that album is a piece of sh*t.

(I like HELP is on the way, btw.)

[thomasogg]

They re-did Loop De Loop as you say, as well as 'HELP is on the way'. 'Seasons..' also stems from the same period. They'd rejected it originally coz it was, in Mike's words 'too wimpy', but I guess the quality-control had deteriotrated somewhat by '78 and so they picked it out of the vaults. I quite like 'Child of Winter' actually.. Have got a bootleg copy of it in which the 'Dind Dong Ding go the bells' reframe is sung continuously from Brian's 'Grinch'-impression onwards and it's much more lively and catchy than the version availiable on the current Xmas reissue.

[the captain]

rejected it originally coz it was, in Mike's words 'too wimpy',

AHAHHA. Mike, a man's man. Hey Mike, how's Sumahuma? That masculine work of brawny manliness, oozing with testosterone...

[thomasogg]

On the recent 3 CD 'Best Of..' Sumahara was included, as was 'Student Demonstration Time' and other classics. Dennis' songs? There was 'Forever' and... that's it. Carl and Dennis will never be fairly represented unfortunately whilst the surviving members are constantly trying to highlight how significant there own contributions were, which, in the case of the aforementioned Mike songs, weren't very significant at all....

[babedog]

AT LAST SOME WHO SEES HOW OVERATED MIKE IS AND HOW VASTLY OVERLOOKED DENNIS AND CARL WERE   SUSAN