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Author Topic: Renewed Hope For Lost 60's Videos? Lost Tonight Show Video From '68 Appears  (Read 3029 times)
guitarfool2002
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« on: June 12, 2021, 11:24:46 AM »

No, it isn't the Beach Boys' two appearances with Johnny Carson in New York in '68, nor is it the famous Lennon and McCartney "Tonight Show" appearance from '68. But two weeks ago, somewhat miraculously if you know the history of Johnny Carson's New York based Tonight Show episodes from the 60's, a nearly pristine *full copy* of Carson's June 19th 1968 program randomly showed up online. The copy looked like a 2" video reel transfer, with all original commercials and running the full 90 minutes (just a few drop-outs), in absolutely brilliant color as the shows originally aired from New York. This is NOT the usual kinescope, B&W dub copy, or Armed Forces Network film copy as others are...this looks like first-generation of the type NBC destroyed. Unless it's been revealed further, this had to be found at a network affiliate or in the hands of someone connected to either an NBC affiliate or the Carson show in general (guests could be given dubs but it was usually just of their appearance and not the full 90 minute show). Who knows.

Anyway, it's a case of something thought to be lost for 53 years suddenly showing up in brilliant quality. Unfortunately the show itself has no mind-melting moments or guests, probably the biggest draw is Raquel Welch and the curiosity is Cleve Backster who made headlines in the late 60's with his experiments involving plants and polygraph readings (referenced by Micky Dolenz on the Monkees' own 'lost' Carson appearance from '69). But for historical value alone, considering 99% or more of Johnny's original 60's videotapes were destroyed by NBC and very few full color full episodes exist, this one was priceless for fans.

I mention it because The Beach Boys' lost Carson appearances happened roughly 6 weeks before this newly-found episode and 2 months after. May 2 '68 and August 13 '68. The Lennon-McCartney appearance was May 14 '68. So this one was *close*...and I can't help but to think as many other Carson fans and collectors are thinking that other finds may be out there waiting to be discovered and seen. It's a total tease that one from June '68 shows up when the BB's and two Beatles appeared during surrounding months. Maybe someday we'll see those too if a similar source is found.

So here's the episode to get a sense of what people in the 60's saw when tuning into NBC to watch Carson, and where the Beach Boys would have appeared when they were guests back then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx7QVHhn7wk

And here's a more full rundown of the band's other "lost" appearances with original TV listings for the appearances showing the dates, times, and other guests. The ones mentioning film of the Maharishi concerts would perhaps be the holy grails, as I don't believe any footage of those few Maharishi shows in '68 has ever been seen.
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,26557.msg649480.html#msg649480


PS - Perhaps not 100% on topic, but for Carson fans, a video like this appearing out of nowhere is as significant as the "lost" Inside Pop film footage randomly being uploaded online for Beach Boys fans. That which was thought to be lost suddenly being found and made available: Amazing.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 11:28:41 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2021, 11:38:54 AM »

Pepto-Bismol. Only the good stuff  Cheesy

Thanks for this! I'm sure that there is material out there that just waits to be found. It just needs someone to go on the quest.
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2021, 11:55:18 AM »

The episode I'd give anything to see is the Jimi Hendrix appearance. I was once in touch with somebody who claimed to have a copy, but it was destroyed during Hurricane Katrina.
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2021, 01:21:18 PM »

The episode I'd give anything to see is the Jimi Hendrix appearance. I was once in touch with somebody who claimed to have a copy, but it was destroyed during Hurricane Katrina.

Absolutely Jay! That is another legendary "lost" Tonight Show where only home-recorded audio exists. So we can at least hear it...but considering what happened, how cool would it be to actually see the video.

I'm not sure how much weight I'd put into a claim that it exists, but as shown quite a few times, who knows...it may very well exist, or maybe someone has it as a home-movie similar to the Lennon-McCartney appearance.

For those unfamiliar with the Hendrix Tonight Show appearance, it is available as audio on YouTube and there are some backstories to explain some of what you hear on that tape.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9op0efmm9TE

The guest host was Flip Wilson that night. Just like when John and Paul appeared, Johnny Carson was not there that night. Johnny seemed to go on vacations or breaks quite often in those years especially. His show made so much money for NBC he could do things like this and if NBC objected, he'd probably threaten to walk away like Jack Paar did earlier. Johnny loved Flip Wilson and his comedy, and thought he was one of the funniest comedians working at the time. Flip was one of quite a few guest hosts when the show was still in New York, everyone from David Brenner to Jerry Lewis, Joe Garagiola, Flip, and more. So when Flip was hosting, he had both Jimi and Joe Tex on the show, more edgy guests geared toward a younger audience than Johnny's usual roster. When you hear Flip mention the watermelon, Joe Tex had brought Flip a watermelon from his farm and Flip had it sitting on his desk during the program.

So the infamous part of it is Jimi's amp blows out and shuts off during his performance. Instead of editing it out as any show from the past 40 years would do, they let the tape roll and aired it all. The band doesn't know what is happening, Jimi is frustrated, and in all of this efforts are made to try to get Jimi another amp once they know his amp blew out. The band keeps playing for a bit, then finally stops. As they're trying to get a new amp, Flip is stuck having to fill time with nothing to say, and that's when he mentions cutting the watermelon and gets a great one liner in there: "Joey Bishop is just one click away!" as the dead airtime rolls on.

So they find another amp for Jimi, and they kick off the song again. That's why Jimi's guitar tone sounds pretty drastically different, much thinner and even harder to hear over Billy Cox's bass and Ed Shaughnessy's drums. But Jimi delivers a killer performance and pulls out all the stops...according to those who saw it, Jimi did the stage moves like playing behind his back, playing with his teeth, using the mic stand as a slide...it was Jimi being Jimi, maybe even moreso venting the anger he had over his amp blowing out mid-song on national TV. I guess we won't know for sure unless video surfaces someday, we can only hope.

So it's truly amazing how different things were, maybe even how much more edgy they could be, that they did not edit out the amp mishap and instead let it roll unedited.

Even more amazing is that Ed Shaughnessy played drums for Jimi. Ed was a monster of a jazz drummer, one of the absolute best, and he was Doc Severinson's drummer on the show for decades until the last episode. If you see any old Carson shows, he's the drummer with the mutton-chop sideburns and the double-kick setup on his kit. I think Mitch Mitchell had recently left Jimi's band, and Jimi's buddy Billy Cox has joined either weeks or even days before this episode, so you had a stone-cold jazz drummer in Ed Shaughnessy filling in flawlessly behind Jimi Hendrix with probably only one rehearsal prior to the taping. Very cool.

And what's also very cool is that this same month of July '69, we landed men on the moon and Woodstock happened. Talk about history and context.

Another note, just three days prior Jimi had appeared on the Dick Cavett show, playing solo with Cavett's studio band. This isn't the more widely-seen episode where Jimi and Cavett are talking about Woodstock, that one was September '69.

At least Cavett's tapes survived...well, most of them.



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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2021, 01:36:13 PM »

And I'll add one more "lost" Tonight Show from the 60's with a rock context: The Byrds on the Tonight Show, July 25, 1967. Again that night, Johnny was not there, and Bob Newhart was the guest host. I'm pretty sure most have heard about this, but The Byrds were on and did three songs. Before one of them, the band can be heard tuning their guitars. Just like when Jimi's amp blew, it left the host Newhart having to fill some dead air. Newhart makes some quips about them tuning, and at one point says something about the musicians, and it sounds like they're still tuning up. To which Crosby in a legendary reply tells Newhart "We tune because we care" and the audience cheers loudly before they kick into the next song.

Once again, a legendary rock and roll moment where Johnny was not there hosting, and something that people are talking about 50+ years later happened with a rock act that went on to become legendary only exists on audio tape which a fan recorded off their TV at home.


I'm asking anyone reading to confirm this too, if anyone can because it's driving me nuts.

I *know* I either heard or may even have buried somewhere a more complete version of the Byrds' appearance that night, which included Bob Newhart's comments leading up to his quip about the musicians tuning up. I absolutely remember hearing it or having it, yet when I check on YouTube none of the available clips have Newhart's comments, and they start instead with Crosby's comeback. Am I going nuts, or have others heard the more complete tape of that Byrds appearance? The only clip available now with all three songs cuts right from Renaissance Fair to the sound of the guitars tuning to Crosby's comment...it cuts out Newhart's comments entirely. And I swear I heard them on an unedited tape somewhere.

Not quite as much of a holy grail Tonight Show lost video but still one that would be awesome to see if it ever surfaces.
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2021, 02:35:16 PM »

The episode I'd give anything to see is the Jimi Hendrix appearance. I was once in touch with somebody who claimed to have a copy, but it was destroyed during Hurricane Katrina.

Absolutely Jay! That is another legendary "lost" Tonight Show where only home-recorded audio exists. So we can at least hear it...but considering what happened, how cool would it be to actually see the video.

I'm not sure how much weight I'd put into a claim that it exists, but as shown quite a few times, who knows...it may very well exist, or maybe someone has it as a home-movie similar to the Lennon-McCartney appearance.

For those unfamiliar with the Hendrix Tonight Show appearance, it is available as audio on YouTube and there are some backstories to explain some of what you hear on that tape.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9op0efmm9TE

The guest host was Flip Wilson that night. Just like when John and Paul appeared, Johnny Carson was not there that night. Johnny seemed to go on vacations or breaks quite often in those years especially. His show made so much money for NBC he could do things like this and if NBC objected, he'd probably threaten to walk away like Jack Paar did earlier. Johnny loved Flip Wilson and his comedy, and thought he was one of the funniest comedians working at the time. Flip was one of quite a few guest hosts when the show was still in New York, everyone from David Brenner to Jerry Lewis, Joe Garagiola, Flip, and more. So when Flip was hosting, he had both Jimi and Joe Tex on the show, more edgy guests geared toward a younger audience than Johnny's usual roster. When you hear Flip mention the watermelon, Joe Tex had brought Flip a watermelon from his farm and Flip had it sitting on his desk during the program.

So the infamous part of it is Jimi's amp blows out and shuts off during his performance. Instead of editing it out as any show from the past 40 years would do, they let the tape roll and aired it all. The band doesn't know what is happening, Jimi is frustrated, and in all of this efforts are made to try to get Jimi another amp once they know his amp blew out. The band keeps playing for a bit, then finally stops. As they're trying to get a new amp, Flip is stuck having to fill time with nothing to say, and that's when he mentions cutting the watermelon and gets a great one liner in there: "Joey Bishop is just one click away!" as the dead airtime rolls on.

So they find another amp for Jimi, and they kick off the song again. That's why Jimi's guitar tone sounds pretty drastically different, much thinner and even harder to hear over Billy Cox's bass and Ed Shaughnessy's drums. But Jimi delivers a killer performance and pulls out all the stops...according to those who saw it, Jimi did the stage moves like playing behind his back, playing with his teeth, using the mic stand as a slide...it was Jimi being Jimi, maybe even moreso venting the anger he had over his amp blowing out mid-song on national TV. I guess we won't know for sure unless video surfaces someday, we can only hope.

So it's truly amazing how different things were, maybe even how much more edgy they could be, that they did not edit out the amp mishap and instead let it roll unedited.

Even more amazing is that Ed Shaughnessy played drums for Jimi. Ed was a monster of a jazz drummer, one of the absolute best, and he was Doc Severinson's drummer on the show for decades until the last episode. If you see any old Carson shows, he's the drummer with the mutton-chop sideburns and the double-kick setup on his kit. I think Mitch Mitchell had recently left Jimi's band, and Jimi's buddy Billy Cox has joined either weeks or even days before this episode, so you had a stone-cold jazz drummer in Ed Shaughnessy filling in flawlessly behind Jimi Hendrix with probably only one rehearsal prior to the taping. Very cool.

And what's also very cool is that this same month of July '69, we landed men on the moon and Woodstock happened. Talk about history and context.

Another note, just three days prior Jimi had appeared on the Dick Cavett show, playing solo with Cavett's studio band. This isn't the more widely-seen episode where Jimi and Cavett are talking about Woodstock, that one was September '69.

At least Cavett's tapes survived...well, most of them.






You know, it's funny (or just shows the difference in personal taste) but personally I don't care very much for Hendrix but there is not enough footage of Joe Tex out there so that would be my main interest in that show.
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To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.

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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2021, 06:27:08 AM »

Well it is neat when stuff occasionally appears but I think a lot of that footage is truly gone-which is of course ridiculous but totally what you’d expect in a world that revolves around the bottom line and saving costs. If they can save money by wiping tapes and reusing them than so be it! Sad
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2021, 08:17:05 AM »

It really is a shame, yes. Although I can understand why to some degree, from a strictly financial bottom-line type of devil's advocacy. The type of videotape they used was very expensive, and was large open-reel 2" tape stored in large boxes. (But that's no excuse for NBC wiping or just destroying Carson's 60's archives...that's just a boneheaded decision that everyone agrees was boneheaded and not done for any good reason). For local shows, like those on KHJ which are Brian Wilson "holy grail" appearances like the one where he premieres Good Vibrations while wearing a stethoscope in Fall '66, they would simple record over previous shows to save money. But just the KHJ archives alone, specifically 1966-68...what an absolute goldmine of rock and roll appearances that got taped over. However *some* of those programs did survive as we've discussed before.

Another element of all this which I kind of do but also don't understand is why individual appearances were not saved or don't exist. By that, I mean the notion that existed well into the 1980's that appearing on TV was a *big deal*. I've heard various stories that guests appearing on Carson in the 60's could request (or even buy?) a copy of the appearance, and that's how certain segments survived. Of course as proven by Lennon and McCartney, fans at home could roll tape from a home movie camera pointed at the screen. Fans could roll audio tape too. And I think NBC or affiliates could run a kinescope which is also how segments like the Ed Ames tomahawk clip exist, but in poor quality B&W rather than the vibrant color of the June '68 Carson show mentioned above.

But if a band, or an individual, was set to appear on the most popular late-night TV show at the time, you'd think someone within that person's circle of family, friends, and even fans would somehow capture it on either film or audio, and perhaps even the band or their management would request a copy, either kinescope or open-reel dub.

But then I think about what the average person would do with a 2" open reel video tape...the only way to play it in those days would have been the video machines only found at TV studios and production studios. And home videotape into the early 70's was still in its infancy and very expensive. A lot of that kind of footage saved on open reels has been surfacing in recent years, and a lot of previously "lost" broadcasts are showing up thanks to former tape hoarders, pack-rats, and even A/V geeks and educators who were recording off the air using these original open-reel home video units. It's a slow process because an original machine has to be found (and restored) to play the tape, some of the tapes have to be restored, and a good transfer has to be made using some pretty expensive gear.

So who knows what is still out there when all of these bundles of old reels keep surfacing. 

Although Brian Wilson did get that early Sony PortaPak setup in late '66, which I believe was the first consumer videotape rig available on the market...and among other things used it to record Johnny Carson-styled mock talk shows with his pals! Someone needs to find THOSE reels!

It just makes me wonder considering how much more seems to be surfacing, truly rare and previously "lost" tapes like the June 19 '68 Carson show, whether there are stashes of reels that may contain one of these legendary lost appearances alongside the evening news from a random night in 1971 or the movie of the week on NBC.

And I wonder again how more TV appearances were not recorded outside the network level by those connected to the person appearing. Because there was no way to watch yourself on TV if you weren't able to watch at that exact moment it aired.





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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2021, 05:40:31 PM »

I can't speak specifically for this recording, but it's probably more likely that it was an aircheck recorded by a local affiliate rather than coming from NBC itself.  Many recordings like this circulate in the TV trading community and are a good source of TV programs/commercials from a time before VCR's existed and are often in excellent original broadcast quality like this example.  So someone at a random affiliate in 1968 records an aircheck for billing purposes (or maybe someone there just really liked Raquel Welch Wink), the tape is then lost or misplaced and collects dust in a vault at some TV station until its found and re transferred some 50 odd years later.  IMO that's the more likely scenario.

It is tantalizing to think that some more vintage Carson episodes avoided the great tape purge, but like those legendary Inside Pop reels, they've probably bit the dust.
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2021, 04:19:53 AM »

Well as we’ve discussed I am amazed about a lot of things not turning up….as I’ve said there are multiple photos of every Beatles concert after 1963….but when I started looking I quickly realized how hard it is to find datable photos of the BBs. If you look at my website you see that I did find a lot but it was a lot of work! I’m amazed that with all the fans with brownie automatics I’ve yet to find one photo of the BBs onstage at the lagoon in Utah (they played there every year from 63 to 70 (except 67). Also surprised that even though the tv appearances are gone no stills have appeared from those shows. And I’m still amazed there is not a single photo of the proto-BBs with jardine. I’ve also searched high and low for a photo of Brian on the road on that February-March 1970 tour-where I assume he also wore a white suit
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2021, 08:22:14 AM »

I can't speak specifically for this recording, but it's probably more likely that it was an aircheck recorded by a local affiliate rather than coming from NBC itself.  Many recordings like this circulate in the TV trading community and are a good source of TV programs/commercials from a time before VCR's existed and are often in excellent original broadcast quality like this example.  So someone at a random affiliate in 1968 records an aircheck for billing purposes (or maybe someone there just really liked Raquel Welch Wink), the tape is then lost or misplaced and collects dust in a vault at some TV station until its found and re transferred some 50 odd years later.  IMO that's the more likely scenario.

It is tantalizing to think that some more vintage Carson episodes avoided the great tape purge, but like those legendary Inside Pop reels, they've probably bit the dust.

Good points - It's basically the same in the radio aircheck world. The finest quality recordings came from either the DJ's own collection (recorded for demo purposes or just to have as an archive) or from the station or the larger company/network which owned the group of stations. In those cases the recordings were usually taken from a direct feed coming from the board, or through a setup where they could tap into various broadcasts direct without interference. The Drake/Chenault stations in the 60's, KHJ in LA specifically, had a system where they could literally dial in via a phone network and hear a direct feed of stations around the country, and some classic 60's airchecks came from that kind of setup. The better quality Real Don Steele recordings on KHJ came from Steele's own tape archive which his family donated.

A few years back they did find a stash of bits and pieces of Carson's show prior to his permanent move to Burbank in a desert vault or something, I'll have to check on the details. But I believe a chunk of those have come out and are available to view.

For almost 30 years I've had early 60's Carson shows I bought from collectors on VHS that were sourced from the Armed Forces Network, but those were black and white kinescopes minus the commercials. One of them was the first "lost" Carson show I ever saw or knew existed in long form in the trader circuit. The AFN can be another source of "lost" material, so who knows what else may still be out there or who may have taken a tape home or saved it from the trash.

But yes, the 1968 tape is definitely something not done at home and most likely from an affiliate station or other similar source. It's literally better quality than you would have seen it originally back in ;68 on your home TV, it has to be from a 2" reel or similar.

The question is why did they save this one specific night's episode? To be blunt...it isn't that good in terms of the content itself and compared to other Carson shows, the audience is less than enthusiastic, and the guests are not A-list guests minus Raquel who was a superstar in '68.

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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2021, 08:32:27 AM »

Well as we’ve discussed I am amazed about a lot of things not turning up….as I’ve said there are multiple photos of every Beatles concert after 1963….but when I started looking I quickly realized how hard it is to find datable photos of the BBs. If you look at my website you see that I did find a lot but it was a lot of work! I’m amazed that with all the fans with brownie automatics I’ve yet to find one photo of the BBs onstage at the lagoon in Utah (they played there every year from 63 to 70 (except 67). Also surprised that even though the tv appearances are gone no stills have appeared from those shows. And I’m still amazed there is not a single photo of the proto-BBs with jardine. I’ve also searched high and low for a photo of Brian on the road on that February-March 1970 tour-where I assume he also wore a white suit

It's amazing - I'm sure photos did exist especially of the Utah shows, but are either in a box in a family's attic somewhere or got thrown out after a death or a move through the years. Or was there a ban on taking photographs during shows inside that venue? Not that that would stop fans sneaking them, but since nothing exists from all those shows I've wondered if they didn't allow cameras in the venue.

What's tantalizing too is that in recent weeks, another lost Carson clip from late 1970 showed up which was recorded at someone's home who had an early open-reel video recorder connected to the feed of their TV. Not a full episode, but roughly a half hour of the show - in color - recorded from the actual broadcast received over that person's antenna that night in 1970. And if we were Lulu fans, we'd be ecstatic because she was the musical guest in that segment. So fans of Lulu have a newly found piece of video to watch which was previously thought to be lost.

But the frustration there is that even those early open-reel VTR machines didn't really start appearing in homes until 1969 or even later into 70-71, and they were very expensive. But it's amazing how many home tape libraries from that time seem to still exist and are being transferred to digital. You never know what could be on a 50 year old stash of reels.
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2021, 08:08:26 PM »

I think money talks and the BBs don’t have anywhere near the cache of the Beatles. If you are a staff photographer for the Salt lake newspapers and you took photos of some of those shows and the newspapers did not buy them, then you junked them or put them in a box. Years later you’d be willing to pour through the archives to find your old contact sheets from that Beatles show you were at but the BBs photos probably are not worth searching for because they are only worth a fraction of that
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2021, 07:43:24 AM »

Very few have the cache (or value) of the Beatles - It's amazing how much unpublished or unused/unseen original photo prints or negatives of the Beatles can sell for when found and offered for sale. And it has to be factored in how many fans did have their Instamatic cameras or whatever at shows or appearances, so there were potentially tens of thousands of photos snapped by fans and by the press photogs, and the large majority of them are still unseen or have been lost...and most are probably blurry anyway  Grin

And even with the Beatles, considering how popular they were and how much footage and film is out there, they were also very protective of how their concerts were filmed, and they didn't allow full concerts to be taped unless it was authorized in advance by NEMS and the other interests to avoid other interests selling such footage which even in 64-66 was valuable.

But just trying to figure out the Salt Lake City shows with the BB's, with all those fans there every year you'd think someone would have a photo. 
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2021, 09:44:41 AM »

Beyond the baseline cache of the "Beatles" brand versus the "Beach Boys" brand, I'd also say that the Beatles only existing for around a decade (depending on when you start the clock), and only touring for 5-6 years (and only three US tours, all of which were pretty short), while the Beach Boys have never really fully "broken up" over nearly 60 years, and have done 100-175 shows per year nearly every one of those years, also contributes to the lack of urgency or apparent rarity of a Beach Boys photo.

And, while it's surely true of Beatles fans as well, there *are* some BB photo/footage/audio collectors who amass stuff and go out of their way *not* to share. And I'm not talking about people who are entrusted with super rare stuff who logistically/politically/legally truly can't disseminate the stuff.

There's one fan in particular who has posted online for many years who has been happy to mention the TONS of photos they've taken of the BBs in concert all the way back from the 60s into the 90s (and maybe even later), and they've specifically said they have not and will not share them. I'm not saying there's one hard rule for how people should share stuff, but certainly we're all getting older and there's going to be a point where the people who would enjoy and appreciate stuff like hundreds or thousands of BB concert photos aren't going to be alive to care anymore.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 09:45:28 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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