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Author Topic: The Alan Boyd Thread  (Read 245482 times)
Chris Moise
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« Reply #425 on: May 21, 2007, 09:57:35 PM »

I do think it's wrong when tapes are stolen etc.

That accounts for pretty much every studio boot ever, although I guess people argue some weren't so much stolen as "leaked." But I can completely understand any musician's frustration at having work they obviously don't consider representative being circulated, be it a financial problem for them or not. (And on the other hand, I am a hypocrite on this issue.)

Not really, I doubt that many (if any) actual master tapes or session have been stolen. It's not like Alan can't get stuff released because the guy that put the Sea Of Tunes boots together is in possesion of the tapes. The boots come from dubs of tapes, acetates, etc.
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Chris Moise
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« Reply #426 on: May 21, 2007, 09:59:38 PM »

And yet, knowing how Alan feels, and even agreeing, at least to a degree, you all still participate avidly in threads on this board and others that openly discuss bootlegs.  And you wonder why he doesn't want to participate anymore...?

The way i understand it, the open circulation and discussion of boots hurts a potential official release like this: The record company figures you've already got it, so why should they bother.  Period.  Doesn't make sense to us, but it makes all the cents in the world to them.

That's absurd. There is no overlap between the Warmth Of The Sun comp and the bootlegs. Warmth Of The Sun has 5 recent remixes you can't get anywhere else. Anyone that is a big enough fan to pursue bootlegs or hang out here will certainly pick up the new comp for the remixes..
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« Reply #427 on: May 21, 2007, 10:15:00 PM »

Even if Capitol released the Sea Of Tunes series as is (perhaps cleaned up a little with good booklets) everyone would buy them. Theft is wrong and I understand an artist feeling embarrassed, but they aren't always the best judges of their own work. It's not like a bootleg ever made somebody stop liking their favorite singer because of a bum note.
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matt-zeus
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« Reply #428 on: May 22, 2007, 01:09:53 AM »

The Beach Boys have one of the biggest bootleg back catalogues of any band - and i'm talking studio stuff here, they've been in circulation since at least the late 70s, longer than many of us have been alive.
To be a Beach Boys fan and not come across bootlegs in one shape or form is nearly impossible, the fact that Smile was the greatest unreleased album of all time has not helped this matter and the bottom line is that for a long time a great deal of the Beach Boys critical reputation rested on essentially on Smile - a bootleg!!
Add to that numerous extra unreleased albums - Landlocked, Adult child, Sweet Insanity and the Paley sessions etc..., means that a great deal of the Beach Boys story is told through the unreleased material (and the fact that a significant portion of it is better quality-wise than the stuff that did come out at the same time, and thats not being contrary or a snobby fan), and it can't be denied that a lot of this bootleg stuff (Smile mostly) has helped to buoy their career for quite a while.
If they released all this stuff in great quality sound with sleevenotes and pictures, I would be the first in line to buy it all!
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the captain
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« Reply #429 on: May 22, 2007, 01:37:48 PM »

Theft is wrong and I understand an artist feeling embarrassed, but they aren't always the best judges of their own work.

But an artist does have the right to release what he or she wants. I understand--and again, participate in--the desire for everything out there. I want to hear outtakes. I want to hear unreleased material. But I have no RIGHT to hear it. An artist has a right to release or not release whatever he or she sees fit, regardless of the artist's judgement on his or her own work.

Obviously, the Beach Boys are the kings of terrible judgement, having released inferior material time after time (after time after time). But that doesn't give someone else the right to illegally acquire it just because that listener deems his or her judgement as better than the artist's. Perhaps postmortem things are different, but I think a moral argument for bootlegs is shaky.

For Chris Moise: Yes, every studio bootleg is theft (unless leaked intentionally by that artist). The artist, label or studio owns the music on those recordings. So whether the tape (or files, these days) was physically removed or simply copied is irrelevant: it is theft regardless.

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« Reply #430 on: May 22, 2007, 05:51:18 PM »

And yet, knowing how Alan feels, and even agreeing, at least to a degree, you all still participate avidly in threads on this board and others that openly discuss bootlegs.  And you wonder why he doesn't want to participate anymore...?

The way i understand it, the open circulation and discussion of boots hurts a potential official release like this: The record company figures you've already got it, so why should they bother.  Period.  Doesn't make sense to us, but it makes all the cents in the world to them.

That's absurd. There is no overlap between the Warmth Of The Sun comp and the bootlegs. Warmth Of The Sun has 5 recent remixes you can't get anywhere else. Anyone that is a big enough fan to pursue bootlegs or hang out here will certainly pick up the new comp for the remixes..

I never mentioned TWOTS.  My comments had nothing to do with any particular release, and everything to do with the disappearing art of discretion.

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« Reply #431 on: May 22, 2007, 06:08:01 PM »

I dunno. I (like many on here, I'm sure) own alot of BB bootlegs. But I am also sure I am not the only one who would buy official releases of the same stuff in a heart beat if they were ever released.
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« Reply #432 on: May 22, 2007, 06:51:01 PM »

I dunno. I (like many on here, I'm sure) own alot of BB bootlegs. But I am also sure I am not the only one who would buy official releases of the same stuff in a heart beat if they were ever released.

But see, you're not the record company.  You're not the guy putting up the money for the release.  If you were, all you'd see would be a bunch of people who already have the stuff that's going to cost you a bunch of money to re-mix, sometimes remaster, and release, and they're talking about it freely all over the message boards..  Why should you release that material?  You can't KNOW that all those people are going to buy it - you have to assume, in fact, that they will NOT.
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« Reply #433 on: May 22, 2007, 06:54:53 PM »

There is a very simple solution to all this talk, of course. The administrators have the power to ban bootleg discussions, such as the Blueboard does; or they can enforce more strict regulations about bootleg discussions. For example, allowing people to discuss the content as if it were "out there," but not discuss trading, buying, selling, upcoming releases, etc. other than in PMs.

I would think either of these (of which I prefer the latter) would help avoid the sorts of comments that seem to have helped Mr. Boyd decide to take a leave from the board.
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« Reply #434 on: May 22, 2007, 07:08:01 PM »

Quote
The administrators have the power to ban bootleg discussions, such as the Blueboard does; or they can enforce more strict regulations about bootleg discussions. For example, allowing people to discuss the content as if it were "out there," but not discuss trading, buying, selling, upcoming releases, etc. other than in PMs.

That's going to be more enforced.
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,3654.msg61653.html#msg61653
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Chris Moise
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« Reply #435 on: May 22, 2007, 08:04:40 PM »

Theft is wrong and I understand an artist feeling embarrassed, but they aren't always the best judges of their own work.

 For Chris Moise: Yes, every studio bootleg is theft (unless leaked intentionally by that artist). The artist, label or studio owns the music on those recordings. So whether the tape (or files, these days) was physically removed or simply copied is irrelevant: it is theft regardless.



I agree, I was just responding to the original poster who said "I do think it's wrong when tapes are stolen.."
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« Reply #436 on: May 22, 2007, 08:26:13 PM »

Does a debate on bootlegs effect on sales break the rules? I don't want to post anymore about it if it does so please let us knoiw if this specifically is wrong.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #437 on: May 23, 2007, 12:13:47 AM »

There is a very simple solution to all this talk, of course. The administrators have the power to ban bootleg discussions, such as the Blueboard does; or they can enforce more strict regulations about bootleg discussions. For example, allowing people to discuss the content as if it were "out there," but not discuss trading, buying, selling, upcoming releases, etc. other than in PMs.

I would think either of these (of which I prefer the latter) would help avoid the sorts of comments that seem to have helped Mr. Boyd decide to take a leave from the board.

Interesting point - thing is, the number of archive tracks that have 'leaked' by legit means is very, very, very small. Does even listening to an unreleased track without the artists OK technically constitute theft ?
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« Reply #438 on: May 23, 2007, 01:37:18 AM »

I feel like I should speak up a little bit. I started a thread about bootlegs before the new rules were made. And I agree that it is much better if bootlegs are not discussed in the open.

Think about it.

This is the only forum on the web with this big a number of Beach Boys insiders who are willing to answer all of our questions and keep us updated on the happenings of the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson at present and future. In my opinion, thats awesome, and we should be doing everything we can to make sure these guests want to stay.

Mr. Boyd, if you do read this - I apologize if I angered you, but we all really do appreciate the work you are doing.


And another point - as a beach boys fanatic, there is a very, very strong desire to have in my possession every possible beach boys track possible and piece of memorabilia that I possibly can. But I, and just about anyone else who truly appreciates the Beach Boys music put official releases (especially ones like Endless Harmony, Hawthorne, CA, and Warmth of the Sun) in much higher esteem than bootlegs.

The bottom line is, out of respect, everyone should adhere to these new rules and try to appreciate our guests here as much as we can.

My .02
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Susan
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« Reply #439 on: May 23, 2007, 02:37:50 AM »

There is a very simple solution to all this talk, of course. The administrators...can enforce more strict regulations about bootleg discussions. For example, allowing people to discuss the content as if it were "out there," but not discuss trading, buying, selling, upcoming releases, etc. other than in PMs.

This has always been my policy on Shut Down, and its previous incarnations.  There are ways to have the discussions that aren't counter-productive. 
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« Reply #440 on: May 23, 2007, 02:50:13 AM »

No bootlegs - no BWPS, no SMiLE tracks on the Good Vibes box, no Dylan Bootleg series, no official release of the Basement Tapes. And so on. 
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« Reply #441 on: May 23, 2007, 08:17:38 AM »

I agree with everyone's point on both sides of the discussion but not talking about bootlegs won't make them go away and salman rushdie has a valid point, had bootlegs not existed we prolly wouldn't have alot of great official releases, which is counterintuitive to the point that it discourages record labels from releasing this stuff...

But there it is.  Smiley
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the captain
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« Reply #442 on: May 23, 2007, 01:45:55 PM »

There is a very simple solution to all this talk, of course. The administrators have the power to ban bootleg discussions, such as the Blueboard does; or they can enforce more strict regulations about bootleg discussions. For example, allowing people to discuss the content as if it were "out there," but not discuss trading, buying, selling, upcoming releases, etc. other than in PMs.

I would think either of these (of which I prefer the latter) would help avoid the sorts of comments that seem to have helped Mr. Boyd decide to take a leave from the board.

Interesting point - thing is, the number of archive tracks that have 'leaked' by legit means is very, very, very small. Does even listening to an unreleased track without the artists OK technically constitute theft ?

On the first point, I actually meant that to apply to the world of bootlegs on the whole, and these days there are plenty of (mostly indie) acts whose albums are suddenly available on various file-sharing networks quite intentionally. So those are boots, but they're intentionally leaked, not stolen.

Interesting question on the latter part, and I hadn't really thought about it. I would say no; the commerce surrounding and distribution of unreleased material is theft, but hearing something without sharing, trading, selling or buying couldn't reasonably be considered theft. It probably could still be argued to be problematic by some people, but not me. I don't think.
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« Reply #443 on: May 23, 2007, 09:26:49 PM »

No bootlegs - no BWPS, no SMiLE tracks on the Good Vibes box, no Dylan Bootleg series, no official release of the Basement Tapes. And so on. 

I second this. BWPS almost certainly would not exist if not for the boots. If no one here is actively trying to buy/sell bootlegs, what is the "harm" in discussing them? We can pretend like they don't exist, but they are out there anyway. Whether or not it's ethically right to download/trade/buy/sell music that artists don't want to be heard is one thing. But no one can claim that a bootleg has ever deprived the BB/BRI/etc of a single cent. It's not as if they're selling "Bamboo" and "Adult Child" boots down at the flea market with the 50 Cent CDs and Spiderman 3 DVDs.

It's only because of the bootlegs/bootleggers that the SMiLE myth was able to survive and grow for 35 years. In "Endless Harmony" Sean Lennon says Smile "is the most amazing thing I've ever heard." I'm sure he would never have heard it by listening to a bootleg.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #444 on: May 24, 2007, 12:07:29 AM »

Black Tiger I agree with you but the moderators must have their reasons that we should respect.
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« Reply #445 on: May 24, 2007, 12:30:52 PM »

Black Tiger I agree with you but the moderators must have their reasons that we should respect.

In the end, that is all that matters.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #446 on: May 25, 2007, 06:25:27 PM »

I just wandered back here to see what was up and I'll admit I'm kind of amazed to see so much back and forth about all of this.  I suppose I should clarify a few things:

Yes, I did leave.  I DID take it personally when someone made a comment along the lines of "the bootleggers are the real heroes of BB-Land" or something to that effect.  This came on the heels of the release of another CD package that included a stack o' tracks that were swiped from my place when I held an open house for fans who'd made the long trek out here to LA for one of Betty Collignon's Carl Wilson Foundation weekends.   Please understand that the theft of that one cassette has caused me more hassle and heartache than many of you can imagine.  It's no fun having to explain, every time one of these bootlegs comes out, that I was the unwitting source of some of the material.  Without going into detail, I will say that it has caused some real problems. 

The truth is that everyone here is well aware that fans are out there trading tapes and tracks amongst themselves, and that's not really a problem.  If anything, the response to that is often something like "Really?  Why would anyone even WANT to hear THAT?"  Collectors and fans have been a great source of help and inspiration in the past - the Endless Harmony CD benefited greatly from the input of several fans and collectors, some of whom sent cassettes of especially rare items that I hadn't even heard (and I thought I knew it all) that prompted deeper vault searches, resulting in some nifty additions to that particular package.  Check out the "special thanks" on the credits of the CD reissue of EH and you'll see all sorts of people listed whose input, advice (and personal collections) helped to make that album a reality.  Other collectors have helped us to obtain copies of long-lost masters, and for that we're eternally grateful. 

Everything changes though, when people take it a step further and start marketing and selling illicit packages.  Sometimes that has the perverse effect of discouraging official releases, and with some of the strange politics that can flare up here in the "record biz" it becomes a royal pain-in-the-you-know-what.  It certainly makes it harder for all of us.

A few years ago I was able to get clearance (and it wasn't easy) to share a huge mass of unreleased material with the fans who attended Susan Lang's "Busy Doin' Something" gathering in CT, and despite the hassles involved (setting up listening stations with headphone amps was a bit of a chore) I thought it was well worth it.  It was wonderful to see the expression on people's faces when they heard some of that music for the first time.  It was set up as a surprise, but it worked, and everyone really appreciated it.  Unfortunately, within days someone posted on some website specific instructions on how to splice into the signal path and essentially "steal" the audio in case we ever did a repeat of that at another event, and that in itself guaranteed there will never be a next time.   Grrrr.

Finally, I also disappeared for awhile because of sheer burnout.   Which happens from time to time.  As Jasper noted, I have been swamped with work lately, and it's just wayyyy too easy to spend a lot of time looking over these message boards when about nine million other things need to be taken care of.... and I KNOW that has to be true for many of you as well!

Can't be the "Beached Boyd" all the time, you know (sorry, couldn't resist the pun).

Meanwhile (say, that could be the title of a song, hmmmm) we ARE working on some new projects that might be interesting.  Or not.  Can't say at this point.  Stay tuned.

And do check out Jasper's "Airplane Song" video on YouTube.    He did a great job with that one - it's really good.

Alan



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« Reply #447 on: May 25, 2007, 07:27:37 PM »

Good to have you back, Alan. 
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« Reply #448 on: May 25, 2007, 08:35:50 PM »

The bootleggers ARE NOT THE HEREOS! People like Alan Boyd are. Even Cheryl Pawalski at Capitol (though she now works for Rhino) are OUR GUYS ON THE INSIDE. They get the music out.  Yes their is a bit of fanatasy abotu the "forbidden fruits" thing. But to go on the boards and tell people how to steal signals from audio playbacks. That is so far beyond anything that should go on it is pretty pitiful. Tapes or Cdrs get traded....ok..that always happens. And that prompts the record companies to get off their butts and do something with collectors in mind. But when out right theft is invovled (espeically from Alan, one of our own!) it borders on the unforgivable. Yeah, lets steal from the guys who help the music get out!

 And yes,  maybe Brian doesn't want some of the tracks out, but he also feels validation when people have heard the unreleased stuff and comment postivley on it. I can remember telling Alan Jardine that I thought Loop De Loop was a great great track. But this was in 1981. He thanked me and then stopped dead in his tracks and said "Hey, where did you hear that?" Do I tell him from a tape of Landlocked? Fortunately, he had played the track on British radio program and I also had a copy of that. So I said "from a British radio special". "Oh yeah....welll glad you liked it...I am gonna put it on our new comp (Ten Years Of Harmony)." But that didn't happen

I have rambled enough.....sorry...just tired. But it is great to see Alan back! Beach Boyd.......... LOL

Bob F.
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« Reply #449 on: May 25, 2007, 08:40:08 PM »

Definitely good to have you back Alan. Just don't let us distract you from the real work.
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