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Author Topic: Beach Boys bought  (Read 9664 times)
Don Malcolm
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« Reply #125 on: February 21, 2021, 11:51:13 AM »

All of this brings us full circle to the recent Beatles/Beach Boys thread. What follows is a bit weird and too telescoped in nature, but bear with me: aside from their unity, the Beatles had another advantage in conquering America and the world--they were not Americans. The mystique was part of the appeal, and it was deployed and developed perfectly (and put into overdrive with the success of A HARD DAY's NIGHT). From 64-66, they essentially recycled rock'n'roll and took it into several different directions, all while sounding reasonably homogeneous. They blended their work in an eclectic way.

Brian and the Beach Boys were schizoid virtually from the start--the yang and the yin pulled Brian in several directions at once, and he grew through absorbing, emulating and transcending others--first Spector, then the Beatles (in their RUBBER SOUL incarnation). PET SOUNDS bridged the "schizoid" element in their work, but only music insiders understood what was underneath the hits and how it had led to such a synthesis. The performance of singles off the LP signalled a holding pattern; the band was split in its response to such a direction; the record label added to the "schizoid" issue by releasing a greatest hits LP a few short weeks later. Synthesizing pretty much everything he'd developed since the beginning of the band's career, Brian conjured up--"Good Vibrations"--a song that had all the "yang" and "yin" of the group distilled in one stunning mosaic--which created a moment where they were ahead of everyone in where(ever) pop was rushing off to in 66-67.

Where it went off to--of course, and alas--did not include the Beach Boys, and ~90% of that audience would not really have included SMiLE as a trendsetter, even had it preceded SGT PEPPER to release.  No one except maybe Van Dyke Parks could follow SMiLE into the studio (well, the 19-year old Michael Lloyd took a stab at it on that Smoke LP of his, but his was mostly songwriting form, not production). The band hit a commercial dead end, but blossomed into a Beatles-like entity for those years--which also had strife and change as the rock world went through its most frenetic period--all of this happening while it mostly ignored what was happening with the BBs until Jack Rieley hit upon selling the SMiLE myth. This was a  masterstroke that backfired, because they never made good on the promise and the entire incident sent Brian over a cliff for 3-4 years (and led to the two Landy administrations). The schizoid nature was suspended in midair when ENDLESS SUMMER brought them back to major prominence, but it became more exacerbated by the 76-77 period, followed by Carl and Dennis running out of steam creatively, and Mike's takeover of the business side, which eventually pushed Brian back under the waves in 80-82 (leading to Landy II). The consultants who've spent the last 30 years propping up the group while it found itself incapable of making another LP for 20 years have done the best they could to exercise damage control over what Mike has done to the overall legacy of the group, but the other members allowed him to retain too much power and autonomy.

Getting back to Azoff: the big problem in the RS article is the use of the word "lifestyle." It leaves us hanging as to how they can reconcile the cheesy elaboration of that idea that has been Mike's trademark with the exploratory music of Brian, and the work that the band did in forging a parallel identity in 67-73. If this new approach does not honor/acknowledge the other Wilson brothers, then it will be just another hollow sham.

Several of us have talked about how all this can be gotten across to a wider audience via a documentary--or multiple documentaries. How can those build and go beyond what has already been done to build the legacy? Will Azoff etal throw a sufficient amount of $$ at such an effort and use the established brain trust (Mark, Alan, Howie) etc. to take this further? Will they be allowed and encouraged to synthesize from the earlier materials and incorporate them into something that goes that full distance? My guess is that Alan is the guy who could synthesize that, if they let him take a crack at it. Of course, we are still waiting to see what Brett Wilson has done with Brian--but the need for a birds-eye overview that captures the whole story of all the major players (and the key "fringe" folks, some of whom are often/occasionally seen in these parts) is greater than ever, and it needs to be put into the works now, since none of the principals are getting any younger.

If they want to have something even remotely worthwhile to build into a 60th anniversary, they've got 14-16 months to pull it all together. Let's hope that FEEL FLOWS is the first salvo in all that...and that there is a plan more coherent and fully actionable than any of the piecemeal, schizoid approaches that have followed in the wake of Jack Rieley's departure. Jack had a number of issues but he was the only person in that position with a big-picture approach that accommodated both art and commerce--and that's what is needed at this point to make this outpouring of cash be more than a corporate variant of the old "two-step side-step"...
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HeyJude
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« Reply #126 on: February 22, 2021, 08:30:11 AM »

I think you *gotta* give this whole Iconic situation a wait-and-see.

As I've been alluding to, folks I'm hearing from are saying good things. People who would not be shy about calling it like it is if this was an ominous sign or some sort of s**t-show are saying good things right now.

This is *not* in any way a situation where they're going to delete everything but "Kokomo" and "Greatest Hits", and churn out "Still Cruisin'" mug cozies. This is a company with people who know how to do this thing, who are also reaching out to folks to help them who have the BB fans (including hardcore fans) in mind. They want to maximize their investment, which means *more* product of all kinds. And those fearing this is going to devolve into the simple Mike-style "surf/sand/cars" mentality/angle, I'm here to tell you that having a non-member in charge of making these decisions will ensure that we'll no longer have to deal with the mindset that thought the "Summer in Paradise" project was the *perfect* direction to take the Beach Boys.

This doesn't mean every product and project will be aimed at hardcore fans, or that we'll like every one of those projects or products. But with more *stuff * happening and coming out, I think ultimately things look good as far as us having more things coming out that we like, and seeing image/PR moves for the band/brand that are a step-up from things like the awful ending of C50 or Mike's controversial gigs last year.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 08:31:08 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #127 on: February 22, 2021, 10:32:45 AM »

This doesn't mean every product and project will be aimed at hardcore fans, or that we'll like every one of those projects or products. But with more *stuff * happening and coming out, I think ultimately things look good as far as us having more things coming out that we like, and seeing image/PR moves for the band/brand that are a step-up from things like the awful ending of C50 or Mike's controversial gigs last year.


All this makes sense to me. We've all seen the brand run into the ground and watched the same painful mistakes get made year after year. I think it's well worth the risk.

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relx
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« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2021, 12:43:13 PM »

One of the things that is different with The Beach Boys that almost all other major bands is that the most talented and creative member is not the most dominant personality. You go through all the other major bands of the 1960s--The Beatles (Lennon and McCartney), The Who (Townshend), Led Zeppelin (Plant and Page), etc--and, for the most part, the person(s) who creates the music is usually the strongest personality. You rarely see a band where the guy who writes the songs and sings at least half of them is probably the most passive members (for many reasons, obviously, in the Brian's case.) Think how odd it is that Brian has to tour under his own name, but Mike gets the tour as The Beach Boys. It would be like Roger Daltrey touring as The Who with Townshend relegated to being a solo artist, or Robert Plant touring as Led Zeppelin without Jimmy Paige and John Paul Jones. In your typical rock band set-up, Brian would have always been in control of the direction and branding of The Beach Boys, and Mike would have little to no say. However, with the BB's, it has been screwed up for a long time, with Mike often acting like he is the creative force behind the band, as well as periods when Carl was in charge. If you ask yourself, who is the central mover behind the group, you get different answers depending on what time period you are discussing. You had Brian up to 1966/67, kind of a shared dynamic after that, followed by Carl being in control, followed by various iterations of Carl and Mike running things. That is why you have never had a clear direction for the band, because there have been different people with different agendas and visions running the band at different times.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #129 on: February 22, 2021, 05:38:48 PM »

I think you *gotta* give this whole Iconic situation a wait-and-see.

As I've been alluding to, folks I'm hearing from are saying good things. People who would not be shy about calling it like it is if this was an ominous sign or some sort of s**t-show are saying good things right now.

This is *not* in any way a situation where they're going to delete everything but "Kokomo" and "Greatest Hits", and churn out "Still Cruisin'" mug cozies. This is a company with people who know how to do this thing, who are also reaching out to folks to help them who have the BB fans (including hardcore fans) in mind. They want to maximize their investment, which means *more* product of all kinds. And those fearing this is going to devolve into the simple Mike-style "surf/sand/cars" mentality/angle, I'm here to tell you that having a non-member in charge of making these decisions will ensure that we'll no longer have to deal with the mindset that thought the "Summer in Paradise" project was the *perfect* direction to take the Beach Boys.

This doesn't mean every product and project will be aimed at hardcore fans, or that we'll like every one of those projects or products. But with more *stuff * happening and coming out, I think ultimately things look good as far as us having more things coming out that we like, and seeing image/PR moves for the band/brand that are a step-up from things like the awful ending of C50 or Mike's controversial gigs last year.


The point in bold: I hope some more serious vetting takes place because there have been some issues in the past regarding the truthfulness and honesty (yeah, I just went there...) of some of those who have been consulted in the past for projects. And also some of the stuff that doesn't get made public that went on regarding some of the supposedly trusted few is in one simple word: shitty.

As always, hoping for the best.   
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« Reply #130 on: February 22, 2021, 06:25:04 PM »

Maybe we’ll finally get Record Store Day vinyl releases of Lei’d in Hawaii and Adult Child.
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RubberSoul13
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« Reply #131 on: February 22, 2021, 07:56:49 PM »

Maybe we’ll finally get Record Store Day vinyl releases of Lei’d in Hawaii and Adult Child.

Bring. It!!!  LOL
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2021, 08:10:43 AM »

We're on the same page, but I do disagree with some of those points

That's fine, and normally I would welcome any debate, especially with a seasoned text smith such as yourself!

However in this case I must concede that it was a lack of clarity in my argument which was to blame.

You are absolutely right that the early to mid period Beatles presented a united front, and was a supportive unit which relied on a healthy competitive dynamic to push them to ever greater heights.. You are also right that when this was no longer the case, they dissolved. This decision not only ties their story into a neat bundle, but also spares us any possible (probable?) decline in the quality and relevance of their work.

From there, your argument that any defence in favour of the Beach Boys work involve us not only having to reconcile 'Catch a Wave' with  'Surf's Up', but to reconcile  'Summer in Paradise' with 'All Summer Long'. I hadn't considered this in my post and you are right that it makes unifying this catalogue nearly impossible without careful curation or, failing that, a large dose of cognitive dissonance. However, my initial point that the early Beach Boys' work is not as highly valued as the early Beatles work is, I feel not only true, but also unfair, (though I am aware some may disagree with this).

Moving back to the support structure of the respective bands, I at no point meant to imply that the internal dynamic of The Beach Boys was, as you say peace, love, and big hugs. Anyone arguing this would be disregarding years of testimony and evidence to the contrary. I think what I take umbrage to is this narrative, which incidentally stems directly from Mike in the Endless Harmony doc, that Love supplied the positive (read extrovert) aspect and Brian the melancholic (read introvert). Such a simple, black and white narrative is similar to the one that states that Lennon wrote the rockers, and McCartney the ballads. Both positions are not only demonstrably untrue, but are also damaging and pernicious when it comes to discussing legacy. Consider that Mike often strawmans us by conflating positivity with  commercial success, and melancholy with commercial failure. Anyone who accuses pre-Smile Brian of not understanding what makes a commercial hit is simply wrong, but this fallacy allows Mike to become the architect of their success.

I much prefer the nuanced position that the introverted and the extroverted side of the Beach Boys, this fascinating yin yan which pervades all of their best work' stems predominantly from Brian's character. Brian. as the ultimate arbiter of what went on the classic period LPs, expresses this inner argument time and time again. That this inner battle resulted from his damaged upbringing and his complicated relationship with his bandmates is of course pertinent, but it only takes us so far in explaining the music.

And it is music, rather than lyrics which best demonstrates this 'light and dark' aspect to his work. Pet Sounds, a work which Mike, regardless of his many arguments in favour of, would probably describe as introspective. Lyrically his argument would hold water. However, the almost painful emotion expressed in the backing track of 'Don't Talk'  is counterbalanced by the absolute joy of life that in the track for 'Wouldn't it be Nice?' That this interaction between mood often happens within a single song, take the track for 'I'm Waiting for the Day', or 'Good Vibrations', is one of the things that gives this music its power. It is not just a case of major key vs minor key, or up-tempo vs slow. This light and dark is built into the composition and arrangements in a masterful way. I'm sure someone like Joshilyn Hoisington could explain how Brian does this far better than me!

Apologies for the waffle, which is probably no clearer than my preceding post. My main point is that this yin yan nature of the Beach Boys is far more pronounced than in other bands. Partly it is their strong, early branding in conflict with their later attempts to distance themselves from it (before returning to it). Partly it is conflict within and around the band. Mostly however, I feel it comes from Brian himself, who expertly built his inner conflicts into the fabric of his work, at the compositional level. In this regard I don't think it's any mistake that he's sometimes referred to as 'the Mozart of pop'

Greg, you make some great points here, very much worth noting! You call it the yin and the yang, I call it the Jekyll and Hyde - but it's basically the same concept and one which runs through the band's career. Sometimes it creates poignant musical moments, which you describe, and sadly more often it has created a head-scratching "WTF?" moment among fans who follow the band on a deeper level than buying greatest hits collections.

Your examples are very well chosen - It isn't just the composition of those songs. After all, who ever declared however many years ago that a minor chord sounded "sad"? It's all perception, and some of those perceptions from a musicology angle are ones I would really like to trace the origins of. Some of it is simply how a listener feels when hearing a certain group of notes, and how a composer plays on those expected perceptions to create a mood in the composition. But no doubt, Brian knew how to write these feelings into his songs.

I think even more of a key to how Brian delivered these "feels" in his music was the *sound* and *texture* he created in his productions and arrangements. The way he could use one specific instrument to literally jump out of the mix and grab the listeners was uncanny in some cases, whether it was a familiar instrument like a guitar, his ultimate fastball in the form of the BB's voices in harmony, or something exotic like Paul Tanner's theremin on "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" or cousin Maureen's harp on "Catch A Wave" or those accordions on "Wouldn't It Be Nice". They're so incongruous as sounds on a pop record that they literally demand attention and set a mood.

One of the ultimate yin/yang or Jekyll/Hyde moments I like to reference is the entirety of the song "Don't Worry Baby". So here is a song which wasn't originally a marquee release but one which appealed to those fans of the "introspective" side of things and one which became iconic and influential among a whole host of songwriters, indie/alternative musicians, and a concert staple up to the present day.

When you look at Don't Worry Baby at face value...it's about a drag race! Cars, racing, etc. Does anyone really hear it as a "car song"? It's packaged in such a sweet and melancholy *sound* as a production and record, it has lyrics which could be face-value about a car race or deeper introspection about a guy doubting himself but taking support and comfort in someone who loves him and is with him during his trials...Hot damn, you can paint it as a Brian Wilson personal self-reflection or apply any of your own feelings into the lyrics, and the fact it's about racing cars gets quickly forgotten. Having a falsetto lead - and not that Frankie Valli "swagger" falsetto lead but a true longing and reaching type of vocal quality - only enhances the conflict between the lyrical message on the surface and what listeners perceive when they hear the song in full form. If it were not a falsetto lead, and let's say Mike sang it or even Dennis sang it, I thing the dual perception yin/yang nature of it would be lost and it would be a song about a guy who's nervous before a drag race.

I think that's where the genius comes in - Playing on dual meanings and knowing what sounds to use to convey that. Although I will say, in terms of composition, the way Brian modulates just before the chorus, perhaps a nod to Be My Baby, combined with his use of the "Brian Wilson Chord" A/B as the V chord versus a regular B to create a more open sound gives the composition some different nuances than a normal I/IV/V chord structure.


So taking all of that as just one example, the early Beach Boys are, yes I agree, underrated and unheralded compared to later works. I'm seeing the same thing happen with early Beatles - I love that stuff from 63-64 to the core, to me it's some of the best pop songwriting of all time, yet the newer generations gravitate to the 67-70 material. I guess it's like politics in the USA, right? Going back to those Capitol compilations, there's the early "Red" Beatles and there's the later "Blue" Beatles lol. I did both...unfortunately that's not seeming to be the case as much these days. The Beatles are being defined by The White Album and Abbey Road and some true classics are being left behind or not highlighted as much.

And there's where a similar scene comes in with The Beach Boys. The music holds up - That is, the better examples of it. But when we need to somehow try to square up a track like "Summer Of Love" or that "Surfin" remake with even "Surfin USA" or "Lonely Sea" or "409", there is no *magic* in those later tracks. No rush of hearing Gary Usher's Chevy revving up, no rush of Carl's Dick Dale tremolo-picked guitar stylings on the fade-out, no Brian Wilson longing falsetto in those sustained notes...the later material sounds like a sheet of hard plastic where the classic material sounds like a warm blanket.

I honestly don't know how this disparity will be squared up, or if it's even worth trying. Jekyll and Hyde couldn't be more different with this band and its output.

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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Don Malcolm
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« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2021, 12:43:31 PM »

I think you could say that "yin" and "yang" eventually morphed into "Jekyll" and "Hyde," and Brian did not consistently pursue more ambitious projects after SMiLE, preferring to find a "middle way" when he was not being medicated by Landy or occasionally pushed to go further by someone like Lenny Waronker. (To his immense credit, he faced down SMilLE, even if we didn't get something all that close to what it would've been in 1967.)

When he could use the voices of the band as both a musical instrument and a compositional benchmark, the sky was the limit. But such moments became more and more fleeting. As off-beat and wonderfully quirky as LOVE YOU is, there's really only a smidge of "yin" hanging on in it. Given all that went down, we are lucky to have the fifty-years-on follow up to "Lonely Sea" in the form of a "Summer's Gone." How much more of that is there that we haven't heard (the "iife suite," etc.), and can Azoff et al do justice to that while also selling a "California" theme to a nation where an increasing number of residents look cross-eyed at all the "wackos" on the West Coast?
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« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2021, 08:01:58 PM »

Unfortunately, my Beach Boys fan Instagram page (formerly @thebeachboys66 on ig) was taken down by Instagram at the behest of Iconic Artists Group.  Was knocking on 6,000 followers too with endless ties to BB family members and family friends along the way.

I'm still super pumped though as to what the future holds with this arrangement for the band!
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #135 on: March 04, 2021, 06:39:18 AM »

Unfortunately, my Beach Boys fan Instagram page (formerly @thebeachboys66 on ig) was taken down by Instagram at the behest of Iconic Artists Group.  Was knocking on 6,000 followers too with endless ties to BB family members and family friends along the way.

I'm still super pumped though as to what the future holds with this arrangement for the band!

Were you given a reason why your page was taken down, like copyright claims on photos or anything like that? If it is a copyright issue, you can expect some of the YouTube channels to be removed too, since YouTube has gotten ridiculous over the past year with copyright strikes.

Sorry to hear about your page! It's hard to build followers only to see it removed like this.
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« Reply #136 on: March 04, 2021, 05:31:06 PM »

Unfortunately, my Beach Boys fan Instagram page (formerly @thebeachboys66 on ig) was taken down by Instagram at the behest of Iconic Artists Group.  Was knocking on 6,000 followers too with endless ties to BB family members and family friends along the way.

I'm still super pumped though as to what the future holds with this arrangement for the band!

Oh, this doesn't bode well for other fan-run sites. I'm sorry to hear this. I followed your Instagram page and enjoyed your posts.
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« Reply #137 on: March 04, 2021, 09:26:37 PM »

So... David Crosby just sold to Azoff/Iconic too.   Apparently somewhat less comprehensive deal than with the BBs but more or less the same concept.
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« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2021, 07:13:18 AM »

Crosby announced he was in the process of selling back in early December, in his case he said it was due specifically to Covid restrictions taking away his income from touring and the paltry if not insulting (my own 2 cents there) revenue he and other writers receive from online music services. I guess the deal was just finalized this week, which is why the headlines appeared.

This from December:

https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/david-crosby-selling-his-song-catalog-its-my-only-option-streaming-stole-my-record-money/

Leading up to the shutdown, Crosby had been touring with an excellent band, and the live performances I heard from them on the radio and elsewhere were great. Crosby was in good voice.

One of the other reasons being offered as to why all of these artists are selling now involves some impending federal tax increases, and selling these catalogs now could save these artists millions versus waiting until the taxes are enacted. Smart move in a financial sense. And a great pitch to make to the artists too.
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« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2021, 09:08:19 AM »

wrote about tax  changes coming  (almost 40%) . some wrote me and  (well)  I feel sorry for these artists having to give up what is flesh and blood creations. 
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« Reply #140 on: March 06, 2021, 02:31:04 PM »

Were you given a reason why your page was taken down, like copyright claims on photos or anything like that? If it is a copyright issue, you can expect some of the YouTube channels to be removed too, since YouTube has gotten ridiculous over the past year with copyright strikes.

Sorry to hear about your page! It's hard to build followers only to see it removed like this.

Oh, this doesn't bode well for other fan-run sites. I'm sorry to hear this. I followed your Instagram page and enjoyed your posts.

Thanks, guys!  Thank you for the support too.  The only explanation from Instagram I received was an automated message that said, “At the request of Iconic Artists Group and other interested parties, your Instagram account is permanently disabled.”

It's ashame.  I always made it a point to never use personal pronouns or pretend to be The Beach Boys.  It was a blast being able to have a vehicle to spread the boys' music and info to so many.  Lots of positivity came out of that account!
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« Reply #141 on: March 20, 2021, 12:18:25 PM »

Just saw that a recent birthday post for Mike Love on the Wrecking Crew FB page devolved into a mess of profanity, arguments, and general bad vibes in the comments section to the point it got taken down by the admins, who posted a follow-up explanation. I did not see the original post which got removed, just the follow up discussions.

I found it interesting because part of the new IAG deal involves marketing, and presumably trying to reshape or rebrand the band and its image to continue marketing them and the music into the future and giving them a better public image, making them more visible (and marketable) moving forward. It made me wonder how this issue on display at the Wrecking Crew FB page will be addressed, if at all, regarding the negative opinions floating around the internet for several decades now. Some attempts to change those opinions have failed in the past, mostly because it seemed the tactic was to try denigrating or even attacking Brian Wilson in order to boost up Mike's profile and resume, and some involved what looked like deliberate attempts to overstate Mike's credits. A lot of those were squarely the fault of those people who tried to do those things, perhaps not realizing that knocking someone's legacy or trying to smear them outright in order to boost another really does not work with most of the general public outside of the political arena.

It will be an interesting task at hand if that element even gets addressed, and what steps may be taken to lessen it in the future, but I can't see how it would not be on the table in terms of a global marketing and rebranding plan worth millions when there seems to be an elephant in the room.
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« Reply #142 on: March 21, 2021, 09:13:19 AM »

Just saw that a recent birthday post for Mike Love on the Wrecking Crew FB page devolved into a mess of profanity, arguments, and general bad vibes in the comments section to the point it got taken down by the admins, who posted a follow-up explanation. I did not see the original post which got removed, just the follow up discussions.

I found it interesting because part of the new IAG deal involves marketing, and presumably trying to reshape or rebrand the band and its image to continue marketing them and the music into the future and giving them a better public image, making them more visible (and marketable) moving forward. It made me wonder how this issue on display at the Wrecking Crew FB page will be addressed, if at all, regarding the negative opinions floating around the internet for several decades now. Some attempts to change those opinions have failed in the past, mostly because it seemed the tactic was to try denigrating or even attacking Brian Wilson in order to boost up Mike's profile and resume, and some involved what looked like deliberate attempts to overstate Mike's credits. A lot of those were squarely the fault of those people who tried to do those things, perhaps not realizing that knocking someone's legacy or trying to smear them outright in order to boost another really does not work with most of the general public outside of the political arena.

It will be an interesting task at hand if that element even gets addressed, and what steps may be taken to lessen it in the future, but I can't see how it would not be on the table in terms of a global marketing and rebranding plan worth millions when there seems to be an elephant in the room.

Guessing that IAG is betting that time will take care of the problem.   Ultimately, the main legacy is the music. The music is the beginning and the end, and it stands on its own.  IMO, the secondary legacy is the band's close association with the California mythology (beaches, sunshine, palm trees and car-culture).  Though perhaps the Golden State has lost some of its luster for multiple reasons, I have to believe that BBs' mythical California will have enduring appeal.  These primary and secondary legacies are solid and need no rehabilitation.

 I'd say that the band's tertiary legacy is their story (the Wilsons and the Loves... and the Jardines to some extent; their rise from Hawthorne obscurity to the pinnacle of popular music; and Brian's genius and triumphs and travails and further triumphs.  Some of the public find the story fascinating while others don't care, have never cared or eventually won't care.  For those who care, the story is  appealing because it's a human one. But the story is complicated and messy and occasionally ugly. And, yes, some aspects of the BBs' story are off-putting to a large segment of the population.  I personally think the RnR Hall of Fame speech in the late '80s was the starting point of Mike gaining a reputation among the general public as "the jerk Beach Boy."  Not saying that ML's conduct was much different 10 or 20 years earlier, but I think that's a point when it became "a thing." And then with the countless lawsuits, you had disc jockeys and people in the music press saying, "Whoa, there he goes again."  And now finally there was the trophy hunting gig, etc, and the perception that generated a new round of animosity.  So, yes, aspects of this tertiary legacy are challenging and need rehabilitation and curation.  Can it be done?

At minimum, I'd like to think (hope) that with IAG now calling the shots and the BRI principals now receding to the position of minority shareholders all on the same side, that the days of intra-band lawsuits are over and done with once and for all.  After ML launched his umpteenth lawsuit against Brian or Al or both, I can't remember which, one of the British publications opined that the Beach Boys were becoming almost as well known for their writs as their hits.  That must stop and I suspect will stop.   As for controversial gigs, I would certainly hope that IAG is mindful of that and is keeping them on a short leash.  As for overall "jerkiness," well, again,  I'm guessing that IAG figures that it's a problem that will time out sooner or later.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 09:19:11 AM by juggler » Logged
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« Reply #143 on: March 22, 2021, 06:35:28 PM »

Just saw that a recent birthday post for Mike Love on the Wrecking Crew FB page devolved into a mess of profanity, arguments, and general bad vibes in the comments section to the point it got taken down by the admins, who posted a follow-up explanation. I did not see the original post which got removed, just the follow up discussions.

I found it interesting because part of the new IAG deal involves marketing, and presumably trying to reshape or rebrand the band and its image to continue marketing them and the music into the future and giving them a better public image, making them more visible (and marketable) moving forward. It made me wonder how this issue on display at the Wrecking Crew FB page will be addressed, if at all, regarding the negative opinions floating around the internet for several decades now. Some attempts to change those opinions have failed in the past, mostly because it seemed the tactic was to try denigrating or even attacking Brian Wilson in order to boost up Mike's profile and resume, and some involved what looked like deliberate attempts to overstate Mike's credits. A lot of those were squarely the fault of those people who tried to do those things, perhaps not realizing that knocking someone's legacy or trying to smear them outright in order to boost another really does not work with most of the general public outside of the political arena.

It will be an interesting task at hand if that element even gets addressed, and what steps may be taken to lessen it in the future, but I can't see how it would not be on the table in terms of a global marketing and rebranding plan worth millions when there seems to be an elephant in the room.

I think just about the only way to reverse the damage and make any sort of change in peoples' minds (to minimize that so many such BBs threads, especially anything directly about Mike, descend into ugly arguments - not just here, but on the web in general), would be if there was some sort of real public heart-to-heart between Mike and Brian, where Mike straight up apologizes for a bunch of stuff, talks about being hurt, talks about his own culpability in all sorts of stuff, etc.

It seemed like that Rolling Stone article "The Ballad of Mike Love" from 2016 was a half-baked *attempt* at something like that, maybe for PR purposes, maybe just because Mike is pissed at Mike's own reputation and wishes things were better, and thought this would be a step in that direction. I give Mike a little credit for a few things in that article, but overall it could/should have been much better, but obviously he was only willing to open up and let his guard down a little bit.

Well now that the brand name sale has taken place, and there's an actual team of business people who are trying to figure out how to monetize the brand, possibly this could lead to Mike (and Brian) making some sort of other overture to mend fences even more, if only to appease the suits who now own the brand. I don't envy those suits, they are surely keenly aware of the fact that the brand they just bought has a huge fracture in it, namely the Mike/Brian issue and how deeply disliked Mike is by many fans. Many other fans don't care who Mike is, what he did, etc, but still I'm sure the business interests involved with the brand *wish* this issue was no longer an issue. Why would stockholders in the brand *want* to see every Youtube video/FB comments section descend into ugliness? I'm sure it's the last thing they want, but it's the reality. How much this hurts the profit potential of the brand is of course another question that I unironically am sure they have charts for determining.

While I do think at this point this is next to impossible to happen between Mike and Brian, I did recently see an example of two stubborn celebrities, one very powerful and wealthy, and one whose star had fallen, mend fences in a very public way - on the unscripted documentary show, The Fresh Prince of Bel Air reunion on HBO Max, Will Smith and Janet Hubert who have publicly feuded for nearly 30 years, and who repeatedly sh*t-talked each other in the press very much, actually sat down and had a long talk, with many tears. Again, I think it's a minuscule chance, but I think it would be very healing if Mike and Brian did something like that. Not just would it be good for the brand, but it would first and foremost be good for them as human beings. But only if it were totally sincere and didn't feel "produced" -  The Fresh Prince of Bel Air segment was amazingly very, very real feeling and just felt like 2 people who had a TON of water under the bridge, but they seemed to mend fences and admit where they both f*cked up.

I wish someone could convince Mike and Brian to do something like that, but while I won't hold my breath, I still think there's any number of possibilities that this type of fence mending could happen which would make some of the negativity subside. And it can't just be a simple reunion of a few gigs without addressing this specific relationship fracture for the reunion to carry any weight in repairing Mike's reputation, which again, if sincere, I can't think of many people who wouldn't want to see those 2 guys actually apologize for stuff and hug it out.

I'm also aware that Brian probably isn't keen on sitting down and talking about deep feelings on camera, so yeah I'm not sure how this would work, but I remain truly convinced that Mike really could redeem his reputation *somewhat* if he publicly talked about mistakes he's made, and asked for forgiveness, something of that nature. In some fashion, but in a high profile way. No, Mike doesn't have to do it, neither did Janet Hubert/Will Smith. Nobody *has* to do this stuff, but while they are living on this earth they *can*, and it can be a beautiful thing if done with sincerity.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 06:43:44 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #144 on: March 22, 2021, 06:45:03 PM »

Side note: Yet another big artist (Linda Ronstadt) sold her catalog to Azoff:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/linda-ronstadt-irving-azoff-catalog-1144437/

Really remarkable how this is all playing out.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 06:45:30 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #145 on: March 23, 2021, 12:09:33 PM »

I think just about the only way to reverse the damage and make any sort of change in peoples' minds (to minimize that so many such BBs threads, especially anything directly about Mike, descend into ugly arguments - not just here, but on the web in general), would be if there was some sort of real public heart-to-heart between Mike and Brian, where Mike straight up apologizes for a bunch of stuff, talks about being hurt, talks about his own culpability in all sorts of stuff, etc.

It seemed like that Rolling Stone article "The Ballad of Mike Love" from 2016 was a half-baked *attempt* at something like that, maybe for PR purposes, maybe just because Mike is pissed at Mike's own reputation and wishes things were better, and thought this would be a step in that direction. I give Mike a little credit for a few things in that article, but overall it could/should have been much better, but obviously he was only willing to open up and let his guard down a little bit.

Well now that the brand name sale has taken place, and there's an actual team of business people who are trying to figure out how to monetize the brand, possibly this could lead to Mike (and Brian) making some sort of other overture to mend fences even more, if only to appease the suits who now own the brand. I don't envy those suits, they are surely keenly aware of the fact that the brand they just bought has a huge fracture in it, namely the Mike/Brian issue and how deeply disliked Mike is by many fans. Many other fans don't care who Mike is, what he did, etc, but still I'm sure the business interests involved with the brand *wish* this issue was no longer an issue. Why would stockholders in the brand *want* to see every Youtube video/FB comments section descend into ugliness? I'm sure it's the last thing they want, but it's the reality. How much this hurts the profit potential of the brand is of course another question that I unironically am sure they have charts for determining.

While I do think at this point this is next to impossible to happen between Mike and Brian, I did recently see an example of two stubborn celebrities, one very powerful and wealthy, and one whose star had fallen, mend fences in a very public way - on the unscripted documentary show, The Fresh Prince of Bel Air reunion on HBO Max, Will Smith and Janet Hubert who have publicly feuded for nearly 30 years, and who repeatedly sh*t-talked each other in the press very much, actually sat down and had a long talk, with many tears. Again, I think it's a minuscule chance, but I think it would be very healing if Mike and Brian did something like that. Not just would it be good for the brand, but it would first and foremost be good for them as human beings. But only if it were totally sincere and didn't feel "produced" -  The Fresh Prince of Bel Air segment was amazingly very, very real feeling and just felt like 2 people who had a TON of water under the bridge, but they seemed to mend fences and admit where they both f*cked up.

I wish someone could convince Mike and Brian to do something like that, but while I won't hold my breath, I still think there's any number of possibilities that this type of fence mending could happen which would make some of the negativity subside. And it can't just be a simple reunion of a few gigs without addressing this specific relationship fracture for the reunion to carry any weight in repairing Mike's reputation, which again, if sincere, I can't think of many people who wouldn't want to see those 2 guys actually apologize for stuff and hug it out.

I'm also aware that Brian probably isn't keen on sitting down and talking about deep feelings on camera, so yeah I'm not sure how this would work, but I remain truly convinced that Mike really could redeem his reputation *somewhat* if he publicly talked about mistakes he's made, and asked for forgiveness, something of that nature. In some fashion, but in a high profile way. No, Mike doesn't have to do it, neither did Janet Hubert/Will Smith. Nobody *has* to do this stuff, but while they are living on this earth they *can*, and it can be a beautiful thing if done with sincerity.

Great thoughts. An event like that feels like something highly unlikely to happen, but man. It would give the brand such a shot in the arm, and a rare burst of *positive* publicity after years of confusion and negativity.


« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 12:11:05 PM by MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm » Logged
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« Reply #146 on: March 24, 2021, 08:13:20 AM »

Just saw that a recent birthday post for Mike Love on the Wrecking Crew FB page devolved into a mess of profanity, arguments, and general bad vibes in the comments section to the point it got taken down by the admins, who posted a follow-up explanation. I did not see the original post which got removed, just the follow up discussions.

I found it interesting because part of the new IAG deal involves marketing, and presumably trying to reshape or rebrand the band and its image to continue marketing them and the music into the future and giving them a better public image, making them more visible (and marketable) moving forward. It made me wonder how this issue on display at the Wrecking Crew FB page will be addressed, if at all, regarding the negative opinions floating around the internet for several decades now. Some attempts to change those opinions have failed in the past, mostly because it seemed the tactic was to try denigrating or even attacking Brian Wilson in order to boost up Mike's profile and resume, and some involved what looked like deliberate attempts to overstate Mike's credits. A lot of those were squarely the fault of those people who tried to do those things, perhaps not realizing that knocking someone's legacy or trying to smear them outright in order to boost another really does not work with most of the general public outside of the political arena.

It will be an interesting task at hand if that element even gets addressed, and what steps may be taken to lessen it in the future, but I can't see how it would not be on the table in terms of a global marketing and rebranding plan worth millions when there seems to be an elephant in the room.



I think the best (and yet most unlikely) to put the focus on the great work each BB has done. That of course includes Mike's great vocals and hooklines (and imo to a lesser extent his better lyrics). A documentary or a book has to talk about the personal stuff of course, but when it comes to PR I guess you can focus on the musical part.
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« Reply #147 on: March 27, 2021, 08:45:10 AM »

Side note: Yet another big artist (Linda Ronstadt) sold her catalog to Azoff:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/linda-ronstadt-irving-azoff-catalog-1144437/

Really remarkable how this is all playing out.

And in Linda's case, she's not selling songs or publishing because she's known as an interpreter and not a songwriter. So they're buying her image, her celebrity, her persona as the brand? I don't know how one would quantify such things.
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« Reply #148 on: March 30, 2021, 01:17:31 PM »

Side note: Yet another big artist (Linda Ronstadt) sold her catalog to Azoff:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/linda-ronstadt-irving-azoff-catalog-1144437/

Really remarkable how this is all playing out.

And in Linda's case, she's not selling songs or publishing because she's known as an interpreter and not a songwriter. So they're buying her image, her celebrity, her persona as the brand? I don't know how one would quantify such things.

It's the actual recordings isn't it? - that is, the copyright in them.
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« Reply #149 on: March 31, 2021, 07:18:58 AM »

Side note: Yet another big artist (Linda Ronstadt) sold her catalog to Azoff:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/linda-ronstadt-irving-azoff-catalog-1144437/

Really remarkable how this is all playing out.

And in Linda's case, she's not selling songs or publishing because she's known as an interpreter and not a songwriter. So they're buying her image, her celebrity, her persona as the brand? I don't know how one would quantify such things.

It's the actual recordings isn't it? - that is, the copyright in them.

I don't believe so, because Linda herself doesn't technically "own" any of the commodity that is those hit songs she had through the years because she didn't write them. Unless there is some new legal technicality that just set a precedent, the copyright is originally owned by those who wrote the song and the publishing is owned by whoever signed the ownership papers in the process of publishing the song. The only compensation a performer gets is whatever percentage of sales they signed for in a contract and therefore however many records or uses of the performance generates income is how much they receive as a royalty.

The copyright itself doesn't generate income on its own, as it's just a protection so the original creators can claim ownership and no one else can blatantly copy it or plagiarize it then call it their own. Some very strange things have been copyrighted, but if a singer or interpreter of songs like Linda has a hit record with a song someone else wrote, that singer has no claim to the copyright, and the revenue from that particular hit record isn't going to the performer or interpreter of that song in terms of ownership but rather the writers and publishers get that income through other outlets like BMI/ASCAP, Harry Fox, SESAC, whatever else.

So I'm a little confused too as to what they're exactly "buying" in terms of Linda Rondstadt's catalog or legacy, and what they'll be selling beyond her old hit records. She makes money depending on whatever percentage she signed in a contract depending on sales of her records as a performer, but each of those songs also has a writer and a publisher who would technically get more of a percentage on the sales and use of those hit records.

And unless new contracts addressed this aspect, where does that leave those writers and publishers of Linda's biggest hits whose income would be just as affected by a new marketing and ownership deal if not more so than Linda herself?

That's what also confused some people about the David Crosby deal - That was for David's own song catalog and songs he contributed to as a writer, while all those massive hits he performed on but didn't write were not part of the deal. So you have David Crosby singing on a song written by, say, Stephen Stills that was massively popular but David's involvement as a performer doesn't come with the Azoff deal because he had no writing or publishing involvement in the song...yet was an integral performer on the song. So those massive Byrds and CSN&Y hits are not part of David Crosby's deal, but Linda Ronstadt's performances of other writers' and publishers' songs is the crux of her deal?

No, I don't get it, lol. I don't know what they're buying from Linda or what she is selling them other than her image and persona, because she has no ownership or creative claim to stake in those hits she became known for through the years.
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