gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
667005 Posts in 26775 Topics by 3874 Members - Latest Member: thesethingsillbe March 02, 2021, 02:39:08 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Heroes and Villains format/versions  (Read 1123 times)
mike s
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


View Profile
« on: January 31, 2021, 09:06:22 AM »

Hashed out many times before but I wonder if any new ideas/info have turned up since the box set came out..?

I think it was generally accepted that the early working version was verse/IIGS/Barnyard as heard on the late '66 piano run through - with possibly a version of the chromatic 'intro' also from late '66.

I think also possibly the end 'sunny down stuff' a capella section was tried out late '66..?  I'm sure I read that somewhere..?

Then Brian started replacing sections before eventually giving up.

There are quite a few missing H&V sessions I think - as mentioned in the box set notes.

So basically it was never a whole song till the 45 was cut in summer '67.


I know there are 1967 mentions of 5 complete mixes but none has ever turned up..?  Apart from the Cantina mix ofc but thats obviously an experiment that was ditched pretty much immediately.

So - has the thinking changed much in the last 10 years Smiley
Logged
zaval80
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 70


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2021, 05:24:12 PM »

I don't know if this has been proposed here, but in my opinion, Brian lacked a strong chorus, and whatever sequences there may be, they do not resemble a proper hit song because of this. IMO he should have worked on the "Bicycle Rider" thing.

Another thing - probably he did not want to build up anything resembling a hit (with a proper chorus in place) because of the problems with Capitol. So he worked on the song, but he wasn't working on the hit.
Logged
mike s
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2021, 02:30:33 AM »

I don't know if this has been proposed here, but in my opinion, Brian lacked a strong chorus, and whatever sequences there may be, they do not resemble a proper hit song because of this. IMO he should have worked on the "Bicycle Rider" thing.

Another thing - probably he did not want to build up anything resembling a hit (with a proper chorus in place) because of the problems with Capitol. So he worked on the song, but he wasn't working on the hit.

Yeah I think most would agree it lacked a chorus until BR was inserted in June '67.  Saying that I think it could be argued the verse is the hook..?  The verse is as strong as a 'normal' chorus..?

Its always assumed that BR was written for DYLW but who knows.  The actual BR lyrics were cut during a H&V session very early '67 - Jan 5th.

Brian had a million strong melodies for Smile but thinking about it the songs are generally less verse/chorus/verse aren't they..?  Wonderful and Surf's Up are examples.
Logged
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2097


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2021, 06:37:35 PM »

Yes there was a report from someone who was there that sunny down snuff was attempted late December but was abandoned when objections to the lyric were raised by you-know-who - although it is also possible it was recorded and erased or the tape lost. 

So the early version is, as you say, the demo but there were at that time other sections planned - Brian says “here’s another section” when he goes into Barnyard, implying other parts were planned or to be written.  Later in December he did record Heroes Part 3 (the chimes “intro”).

Bicycle Rider was overdubbed in January with vocals and additional instruments in a Heroes session and so apparently was a kind of “chorus” although it may have just replaced Great Shape as Part 2 and not been repeated.  The final chorus WAS Bicycle Rider but in a minor key.

When he decided on the cantina version as side 1 of the single, Brian went on almost immediately to work on side 2/Part 2 - which we now know, thanks  to Cam’s detective work and contemporary reports from DerekTaylor in the press that Brian planned a 2 part single.  So all the 5 and 6 minute versions reported in the press up to June may have been edits of cantina with various Part 2 “sections”  although it seems pretty clear that at some point he abandoned cantina and started to rework the whole song into the eventual single.
Logged
Very Extremely Dan
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2021, 07:39:46 AM »

I think the 2 sided single would have been revolutionary (more of a mini suite/album than Dylan's necessarily split "Like a Rolling Stone" A/B)....and makes A LOT of sense...

If the "cantina" version was the A side Pt.1 ending "my children were raised.....often wise" then the B side pt. 2 would naturally have the conclusion of the tale":  "My children were raised....wise", "So long to the city....sonny down, snuff, I'm alright"

And what was that tale?  The rest of SMiLE that would have come out a few months later....Imagine if Pt. 1 has also included The Crows "Gee" and faded on the "my only sunshine, how much I love you" version of the H&V pt.1 fade (and Old Master Painter) and Part 2 did indeed include the Bicycle Rider theme  as "Heroes and Villains just see what you've done to the church of the American Indian"

These "easter eggs" would find answer in the SMiLE album....The Crows had begun singing "How I love my girl" and were now crying "Uncover the cornfield"....."You are my sunshine" had become "How could you take my sunshine away"..."Sunny down, snuff"...and the final H&V theme would have been heard as originating in Do You Like Worms as "Bicycle Rider" following the arrival of the British colonizers at Plymouth Rock....
Logged
mike s
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2021, 12:13:22 PM »

Yeah so 'intro - verses - IIGS - barnyard - sonny down snuff' is enough material to make a whole song IF the hook is the verse - it arguably is as its a belting melody.

My issue with the Cantina version of the song has always been that its too jarring.  Amazing brilliant sections but haphazard arrangement.  Also all the side 2/part 2 is OK but not that gripping.

The IIGS and Cantina sections I don't rate that highly.  Cantina is a beautiful piano part but I think the vocal melody is not as strong as the piano.  IIGS is just odd - I'm sure it would have been fleshed out a lot more as heard on that snippet of the 'lost' take of the track.  No idea what Brian thought at the time but he did drop those sections so I guess they weren't his favourites..?

'Intro' is just baffling.  Presumably its an early go at the Cabinessence chorus..?  Its a reasonable guess its a train..?

I think the strongest sections of the song are:  verses/barnyard/'sonny down snuff' and 'children were raised' a capella/cantina fade/cantina fade early arrangement/music box 'bicycle rider' section (this would have made a great chorus).  I think with those you've got the makings of a fantastic single.


I think the 2 sided single would have been revolutionary (more of a mini suite/album than Dylan's necessarily split "Like a Rolling Stone" A/B)....and makes A LOT of sense...

If the "cantina" version was the A side Pt.1 ending "my children were raised.....often wise" then the B side pt. 2 would naturally have the conclusion of the tale":  "My children were raised....wise", "So long to the city....sonny down, snuff, I'm alright"

And what was that tale?  The rest of SMiLE that would have come out a few months later....Imagine if Pt. 1 has also included The Crows "Gee" and faded on the "my only sunshine, how much I love you" version of the H&V pt.1 fade (and Old Master Painter) and Part 2 did indeed include the Bicycle Rider theme  as "Heroes and Villains just see what you've done to the church of the American Indian"

These "easter eggs" would find answer in the SMiLE album....The Crows had begun singing "How I love my girl" and were now crying "Uncover the cornfield"....."You are my sunshine" had become "How could you take my sunshine away"..."Sunny down, snuff"...and the final H&V theme would have been heard as originating in Do You Like Worms as "Bicycle Rider" following the arrival of the British colonizers at Plymouth Rock....
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 12:19:28 PM by mike s » Logged
BJL
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 227


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2021, 11:31:26 PM »

I've long thought that Brian's point of no return, was the moment when he decided not to put out the cantina version of Heroes and Villains in February 67. He gave an interview (in LLVS I think) right after the cantina version was finished, where he said that Heroes and Villains was done, but he hadn't decided on a B side yet, and he was thinking of just recording himself playing something on the piano. If he had just done that and rushed the song out - even if it had disappointed commercially - he would have had at least another month or two of recording dedicated to finishing the *album* instead of the single. And given how quickly Brian was working, and how much had already been done, another couple months of sessions on things like Do You Dig Worms (in this universe, not cannibalized!) and Child is the Father would have brought the album so much closer to being finished that shelving everything would have become much less likely; or at the least, there would have been a real album for Carl to put back together in the 70s.

I know a lot of things had already gone wrong by February, it's not like this *caused* Smile to fail. It just has always seemed like the point of no return, to me. The Cantina mix of Heroes and Villains was probably not commercial enough to be a huge hit, but it is certainly more dynamic than the song Brian put out. It would have blown some more minds in Los Angeles, for sure. And in early March it would have been climbing the charts alongside Ruby Tuesday and Penny Lane and, in my opinion, comporting itself quite respectably. But it makes sense: the moment that Brian lost confidence in the first actual finished, mixed song the Smile sessions had produced....was the moment that no song from the sessions would ever be properly finished, and it all dissolved into endlessly shuffling parts in and out of heroes until all momentum was lost.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9313


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2021, 07:59:07 AM »

Some great thoughts in the last few posts! One that stood out was connecting "The Crows" song Gee with the crow in Cabinessence...that's the kind of either unintentional or deliberately subliminal connection that makes this project so fascinating after so many years and so many theories.

Adding a few more points to BJL's post about Heroes in February/March '67 sitting alongside Penny Lane, Ruby Tuesday, etc.

Ironically it was Brian's hearing Strawberry Fields for the first time on the radio, while driving with Michael Vosse, which I think had *some* effect on the overall plans for the album. Brian's feeling was that the Beatles had beat him to the punch, he loved the record but somehow heard elements of that record which he was aspiring to in various aspects of Smile, but The Beatles got there first. My own theories are more esoteric and perhaps bizarre to some, but I think the aspect of Strawberry Fields literally stretching time and sound, related to what Brian himself has said about some of his own experiences with music and drugs, was one thing that many listeners would miss but something which Brian noticed. Strawberry Fields literally stretched the concept of pitch, time, and sonic texture by the vari-speed tape manipulations and edits. These same things would show up a few months later on Smiley Smile but in exaggerated comic form. Coincidence? All of this stuff was in the air throughout Smile.

That timeline of February/March 1967 becomes even more important and perhaps more tragic in retrospect because Brian was set to appear on CBS TV "Inside Pop" to be broadcast in April 1967. Brian's performance of Surf's Up was edited into the broadcast as the finale of that documentary, the last thrilling chapter in what was to come in pop music after this new song was setting the bar so high and encapsulating all that Bernstein and Oppenheim were discussing in the previous hour. It did set LA abuzz, as it did with anyone in the country who watched it in April and again during the rebroadcast months later.

If things had gone as planned, *at least* a Heroes single would have been out when that broadcast aired. I have no doubt, let me restate that because some argued this point before, I have *no doubt* a new BB's product would have gotten a similar bump as Janis Ian did from that broadcast. The timing and marketing was there had something or anything been released in February or March, as people wanted to hear this new pop music revolution...

So that's just another tragic point in the saga, as everything was lined up for nationwide TV exposure of the sort that got a Baroque-influenced Janis Ian single which had come and gone back on the charts, only unlike Janis Ian DJ's had no single to spin and record buyers had no record to buy after the build-up on that TV show.

Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
mike s
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2021, 03:40:14 PM »

My concern has always really been more with the structure of H&V than the context.

Was H&V EVER arranged into a cohesive song before the 45..?  Millions of amazing bits but nearly impossible to thread it into a coherent flowing song.  Four or five amazing variation son the fade but you can only use one. Frustrating.

I don't think 'Cantina' makes it as a song.  I'm not sure thats the final mix Brian mentioned and even if it was it was rejected by him almost immediately.  I think cantina COULD be made into a brilliant song with a bit of editing and stretching in length by adding/repeating sections.  I'd remove the laughter and the 'you're under arrest' - they're interesting the first couple of listens but after that just novelty.  I think there could be another verse - maybe a reprise of the first one.  I'd replace the Cantina section with BR as I think thats a much stronger section - and it ended up in the 45 although obviously reworked.

I've tried a test mix putting the Cabinessence chorus in there as a mid 8 - hugely cheating of course although sections appearing in more than one song was what they were experimenting with + there's a train on the Holmes pic + a train whistle in the Cantina mix.  It sounds great edited into BR.

Also on the first proper Oct H&V session there is a piano noted on the tracking.  I wonder if there's something missing there..?  A section we don't know about..?
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 334


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2021, 12:02:14 PM »


Also on the first proper Oct H&V session there is a piano noted on the tracking.  I wonder if there's something missing there..?  A section we don't know about..?


There is a piano audible on the verse section, but buried, very Spector-ish. And one with taped strings playing the melody in Barnyard from the same day.

Missing 1966 sections though? Oh yeah, for sure, unfortunately.
Logged
mike s
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2021, 02:46:50 PM »

Oh i've never picked out piano on the verse.  And I thought the melody in Barnyard was played by guitar.  You learn something new every day eh Smiley

Yeah 'Sonny down snuff' was apparently tried pre Christmas.


Also on the first proper Oct H&V session there is a piano noted on the tracking.  I wonder if there's something missing there..?  A section we don't know about..?


There is a piano audible on the verse section, but buried, very Spector-ish. And one with taped strings playing the melody in Barnyard from the same day.

Missing 1966 sections though? Oh yeah, for sure, unfortunately.
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 334


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2021, 04:00:13 PM »

Oh i've never picked out piano on the verse.  And I thought the melody in Barnyard was played by guitar.  You learn something new every day eh Smiley

Yeah 'Sonny down snuff' was apparently tried pre Christmas.


I've never seen a reliable source for that claim, only fan rumours that circle back to themselves. But there was an alternate version of I'm in Great Shape, and according to an eyewitness so far proven trustworthy, a 1966 track for Children Were Raised. The original tapes for all of those sections are missing along with God knows what else. It's only via later dubs for vocals that mono versions of the verse and Barnyard even survive.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 04:05:09 PM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
mike s
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 57


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2021, 04:24:17 AM »

Which version of 'Children were raised'..?  Oh you mean the Durrie Parks acetate version..?  Was that definitely from '66..?

Oh i've never picked out piano on the verse.  And I thought the melody in Barnyard was played by guitar.  You learn something new every day eh Smiley

Yeah 'Sonny down snuff' was apparently tried pre Christmas.


I've never seen a reliable source for that claim, only fan rumours that circle back to themselves. But there was an alternate version of I'm in Great Shape, and according to an eyewitness so far proven trustworthy, a 1966 track for Children Were Raised. The original tapes for all of those sections are missing along with God knows what else. It's only via later dubs for vocals that mono versions of the verse and Barnyard even survive.
Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.113 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!