Mike's buddy Trump gives BBs collaborator Toby Keith National Medal of the Arts

[CenturyDeprived]

Can you actually point to any objective evidence that anything Mike has said or done in the last few years including his association with Trump has had any direct negative impact on the Beach Boys name?  Has there been a significant drop in album sales and online streaming of their music?  Have there been any "ban Beach Boys" rallies where folks are burning their records?  And on this very message board have there been any regulars who have recently sworn off the band and left the forum over Mike's actions?  My guess of course is the answer is a firm no.  So perhaps we should drop the irrational "sky is falling" hysteria and be a little more level-headed about this.  

And Trump isn't even a Beach Boy.  Hell, he's not even a President anymore (...zing!!!).  

We'll never agree on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally know people (actual people, not hypothetical ones) who are disgusted by the Mike/BBs/Trump connection, and won't support the band/brand anymore as a result. I haven't done a formal polling of fans to see how widespread this is, no. One need only look at *any* comments section from *any* publication (Rolling Stone, Variety, etc.) that mentions The Beach Boys, and it can be articles that are about BB subject matter that is not directly related to Mike/Trump, and you'll see plenty of reminders of that connection - and that omnipresent reminder (which Mike keeps inflaming like gasoline on the fire with his repeated connections, refusal to skip playing the trophy hunting gig, etc) can be regularly seen by fans who might just be budding BBs fans, but can get GROSSLY turned off by that connection.  

That connection won't go away. Maybe if we're lucky it will fade with time, but Mike is only helping to prevent that fading from happening by continually keeping up that connection. By playing maskless indoor shows at Mar-a-Lago. Because he's such a tough guy and can't relent or back down at all. Big tough guy Mike Love. And yeah, his silence on the insurrection much like his silence on Don Jr. sh*t-talking Brian speaks volumes.

There are plenty of artists who have questionable political views, and fans of course simply have to decide if those views are abhorrent enough to warrant disinterest in that artist. Usually, it's some views that may be shite, but can more easily be overlooked. But again, with Mike, it's the repeated over-and-over-and-over again ties to Trump that have really made that connection unshakable for a not insignificant amount of fans. I don't have numbers, nor does anyone, but common sense tells me this is not good for the brand.

If you think the Mike/Trump stuff won't be affecting the chances of a hypothetical 60th anniversary reunion, or won't at least taint it for plenty of people should such a reunion happen, I don't think you're seeing the big picture here. Just because the BBs train keeps on rolling along, there's plenty of modern day damage/rot/decay happening to the brand, which is ALL due to Mike, which has longterm effects, and it's extraordinarily unfortunate.  If ONE fan is lost due to this garbage, it's one fan too many.

And if you think this subject is somehow not on the minds of PR people associated with the band/brand/FF box/60th reunion, I'm certain you'd be wrong.

If you think that an artist's bad actions can't be a hindrance to fandom, you're 100% wrong. I have friends who are big, huge fans of Kanye West. I have not listened to his music, but after reading about his massive narcissism and abhorrent antics, I have no interest in giving his music a chance or listening to one note of it. I'm sure plenty of would-be BBs fans would fall into that same category. I'm grandfathered into BBs fandom, my emotional connection to the BBs music was forged deeply long ago, so it's rather impossible for me to simply give up on the music. But there's plenty of grey area of fans who are moderate to big fans (not superfan level) who will probably shun all things Mike Love now (which includes the brand), and again it doesn't take much energy for some would-be fan (who is yet to be emotionally invested in the band's music) to shun it more easily by being understandably grossly turned off by Mike. To think this is simply not happening is to be an ostrich. Of course it is. Like I said, I know actual people who fall into this category.  I'm sure the numbers are more than just a handful of folks.

It doesn't take much effort to cut off would-be fans' fandom at the knees, and to at minimum dampen fandom for others who were more deeply into the music already. I'd sure like to tell friends of mine who are budding fans to give a listen to Sunshine Tomorrow to hear how Mike really was a solid lyricist moreso than he gets credit for. I'd sure like to say "give Mike a chance!", but yeah... plenty of people won't want to give Mike the time of day now. Call it "their loss" all you want, but it's a problem that's not going to go away with the brand. 

[Awesoman]

Can you actually point to any objective evidence that anything Mike has said or done in the last few years including his association with Trump has had any direct negative impact on the Beach Boys name?  Has there been a significant drop in album sales and online streaming of their music?  Have there been any "ban Beach Boys" rallies where folks are burning their records?  And on this very message board have there been any regulars who have recently sworn off the band and left the forum over Mike's actions?  My guess of course is the answer is a firm no.  So perhaps we should drop the irrational "sky is falling" hysteria and be a little more level-headed about this.  

And Trump isn't even a Beach Boy.  Hell, he's not even a President anymore (...zing!!!).  

We'll never agree on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally know people (actual people, not hypothetical ones) who are disgusted by the Mike/BBs/Trump connection, and won't support the band/brand anymore as a result. I haven't done a formal polling of fans to see how widespread this is, no. One need only look at *any* comments section from *any* publication (Rolling Stone, Variety, etc.) that mentions The Beach Boys, and it can be articles that are about BB subject matter that is not directly related to Mike/Trump, and you'll see plenty of reminders of that connection - and that omnipresent reminder (which Mike keeps inflaming like gasoline on the fire with his repeated connections, refusal to skip playing the trophy hunting gig, etc) can be regularly seen by fans who might just be budding BBs fans, but can get GROSSLY turned off by that connection.  

I would take comments sections with a huge grain of salt.  They are almost always reactionary and you're not getting a balanced argument especially if you're reading them from an unapologetically biased source such as Rolling Stone.  And as I've said before, I highly doubt anyone is paying that close attention to these things other than us die-hards that obsess over anything the band does.  

If you think the Mike/Trump stuff won't be affecting the chances of a hypothetical 60th anniversary reunion, or won't at least taint it for plenty of people should such a reunion happen, I don't think you're seeing the big picture here. Just because the BBs train keeps on rolling along, there's plenty of modern day damage/rot/decay happening to the brand, which is ALL due to Mike, which has longterm effects, and it's extraordinarily unfortunate.  If ONE fan is lost due to this garbage, it's one fan too many.

"If ONE fan is lost due to this garbage, it's one fan too many."  Seriously?!  No offense, but this is utterly ridiculous and over-dramatic.  It's hard for me to share this paranoia with you when we're talking about a band that has been around for about 60 years now, has received unprecedented critical and commercial successes and still have a healthy fanbase of people of all ages despite considerable hardships and some clueless career misfires.  That is the big picture here.  Not any stupid thing Mike has said or done either recently or in the past.  Hell, a bunch of folks just uploaded a cover of "Good Vibrations" to YouTube five days ago (https://youtu.be/hWCkCSO8h9I) which even got the attention of Rolling Stone (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/beach-boys-good-vibrations-social-distance-sessions-1119199/).  I guess they missed all the Trump/Love stories...?

And if anything is hindering a possible 60th anniversary reunion, I would argue that age, health and the group's historic dysfunction with one another are far more realistic threats than Love playing a show for Trump.  However Jardine even seems to think a reunion is happening despite him criticizing Love for the trophy hunting concert.  

And if you think this subject is somehow not on the minds of PR people associated with the band/brand/FF box/60th reunion, I'm certain you'd be wrong.

If you think that an artist's bad actions can't be a hindrance to fandom, you're 100% wrong.

I'm certainly not disputing that.  Of course it can happen and has happened to artists before.  But I am failing to see any hard, compelling evidence that the BB's brand name is nosediving in popularity or even taking a considerable hit over anything Mike Love has done that you are fretting about.  For anyone that even cares about this, it's pretty well historically documented about how polarizing Mike can be.  I don't think most folks are even paying that close attention to this band the way we do to really even care that much about anything they are doing in the present.  And while I respect your right to feel any way you want to feel about these things, the fact that you only seem to be able to provide anecdotal arguments that anything is seriously wrong here leads me to believe that you and anyone else dooming and glooming over this are perhaps overreacting just a *tad*.  

And I'm going to just be brutally honest: just because Love supported an unpopular President and played a show for an unpopular group does not mean that he actually did anything objectively wrong, no matter how we may feel about it.  There are far worse things that Mike could be doing that could bring considerable damage to the brand name; these things are ultimately trivial.

But there's plenty of grey area of fans who are moderate to big fans (not superfan level) who will probably shun all things Mike Love now (which includes the brand), and again it doesn't take much energy for some would-be fan (who is yet to be emotionally invested in the band's music) to shun it more easily by being understandably grossly turned off by Mike. To think this is simply not happening is to be an ostrich. Of course it is. Like I said, I know actual people who fall into this category.  I'm sure the numbers are more than just a handful of folks.

If there were a significant or even small number of radio stations that were banning Beach Boys music over this matter, then I might see your point.  If record sales and streaming sales dropped dramatically after Love's antics last year, then I'd see your point.  If a large volume of long-time regular posters on this board and other BB forums started jumping ship and stop posting because they were outraged with Love then I'd see your point.  The problem is, there is no objective evidence to suggest that any of this is happening either at a significant level or remotely.  If folks are truly that upset over the way an 80-year-old Love is acting that they're willing to give up the band's music entirely, dare I ask were they even fans of the music to begin with?  

[mtaber]

I googled “biggest jerks in rock and roll” and one site actually has John Lennon at #1, stating his abuse of his first wife among other things.  I don’t think the Beatles legacy has been severely damaged, nevertheless.

[CenturyDeprived]

I googled “biggest jerks in rock and roll” and one site actually has John Lennon at #1, stating his abuse of his first wife among other things.  I don’t think the Beatles legacy has been severely damaged, nevertheless.

Keep in mind, while not defending any of that, and while it's apples and oranges to compare the two men and their behaviors, you're referring to events of 55+ years in the past, as opposed to an ongoing series of obviously completely different reputation-damaging behavior that continues repeatedly over time, which unfortunately coincides with media amplification and scrutiny during the digital age time period in which those events are occurring. Meaning, if John had lived and what you mentioned was something newly happening in 2021, you could better believe the 21st century heat he and the brand would endure would be off the charts.  Once again, not looking to compare Mike to John or their behaviors, but the concept is that the damages that legacies endure can be impacted by many factors including time period and frequency, and apologies or lack thereof, etc. etc.

Realistically speaking, sadly, Dennis' name is rarely mentioned in big media articles without a reminder that he had a Manson connection. That unfortunate connection (which of course he deeply regretted) is forever linked, just as Mike's will be to Trump. It's low hanging fruit. Blame it on clickbait or whatever you want, but ultimately that will be forever a stain on the legacy. One Mike/Trump show/connection might have made that fade quicker, but by golly Mike's many repeated Trump connections ensured that he LOVED to be associated with Trump, and Mike wanted the public to know that even as late as NYE 2021 after Trump had been voted out of office, during the time period when Mike's buddy Trump was planting the seeds for what would 6 days later be an insurrection. Mike wanted the world to know that even at that late date, he was still A-OK with publicly supporting Trump at an indoor maskless show. With Vanilla Freaking Ice. Crapping on the legacy.

It's too soon to really quantify the damage, only time will tell. Mind you, this whole thing only makes me incredibly sad, and I hate to see my favorite band repeatedly associated with Trump and dragged through the mud.

[CenturyDeprived]

And I'm going to just be brutally honest: just because Love supported an unpopular President and played a show for an unpopular group does not mean that he actually did anything objectively wrong, no matter how we may feel about it.  There are far worse things that Mike could be doing that could bring considerable damage to the brand name; these things are ultimately trivial.

If Trump flat out said "I could give a sh*t about Black/LGBTQ rights", "Hitler was vastly misunderstood and wasn't really such a bad guy", etc, - would Mike repeatedly supporting that person publicly be something you'd qualify as an objectively wrong action? All in all, it really depends on how one sees Trump, if they feel these are giant (or not-all-that-giant) leaps in logic from where Trump currently stands, and if they're not of the opinion that hateful rhetoric is a very serious thing with very serious potential consequences.  If one feels any of this stuff is even slightly in the ballpark of Trump, they may feel extraordinarily icky with this brand having repeated connections to it, and perhaps it can be better understood why the line got crossed for some people.

And like I said with my example earlier of people being turned off to an artist so much PRIOR to having given their music a chance, prior to being a fan, that they won't even bother... well that's an actual thing that happens. I can personally attest that it happens. It's not some super rare occurrence. One doesn't need to be a political extremist or zealout in order for this to happen, it's human nature sometimes.

I can give you a list of artists who are famous, who I've never listened to their music before (who I'm well aware of their actions/views which deeply don't jive with mine, to put it lightly) who I would simply choose to never give the time of day to due to the eww factor. They don't have the advantage of me having gotten emotionally invested in their music beforehand. I've never sat down and listened to a Ted Nugent, Kanye West, Gary Glitter album. Maybe there's great music I'm leaving on the table, but you know what? I'm ok with that. There's soooo much music out there, why would I push myself to try to emotionally connect to something by someone who already has planted that seed of being a total POS? So your comment "were they really fans to begin with" holds no water, because I'm talking about people whose fandom was stopped before it ever even started.

I personally certainly don't need every musician or actor to have views that are the same as mine, it's silly to expect that, and there's a huge spectrum... I'm no political extremist either. YET there's nevertheless a line that can get crossed - EVERY or nearly every person/fan/potential fan has that line. Your mileage may vary. But you can't pretend that this is some minimal, insignificant concept. Yes the BBs brand is always going to have a bedrock of fans who won't go anywhere, but the fans who are perhaps the ones the FF set might get new fans into - those potential fans are probably the most at risk for shunning the brand, or at least having the amount of fandom lessened to some degree. And that sucks. All this does, ultimately, is further the "Brian rules, Mike sucks" narrative too, which is remarkable because that narrative seems to be Mike's kryptonite which he nevertheless keeps pathologically egging on.

[rab2591]

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? It was marked as a "General On Topic Discussion" thread yet last I checked Toby Keith has f***-all to do with The Beach Boys. Last I checked there is no written or verifiable record of Mike Love ever stating that he wanted an award from Donald Trump. And yes, I'm sure I could get an essay full of "what-ifs" and straw-man arguments that point toward Mike Love working his hardest at trying to get this award, but in the end it is all pure speculation.

And with that said, for someone so concerned about The Beach Boys being tarnished by being associated with Donald Trump, CD, you sure are trying hard to further escalate that association here.

I'm annoyed at Mike for the crap he's done throughout the years. I was greatly annoyed by Mike's playing the Trophy Hunter gig. I'm annoyed at Mike for associating this beautiful and spiritual music with the toilet water of politics. But I also don't understand the point of this thread - if one is worried about fans being turned off by Mike's association with Trump, why create a thread (on the most popular Beach Boys forum ever) that further discusses Mike's association with Trump?

If Mike actually got an award I would completely understand if a thread were made (much like I was a huge opponent of Mike's actions in the Trophy Hunter thread). But no award was given to Mike. Mike hasn't publicly stated animosity towards Toby Keith. If we're annoyed about Trump being associated with The Beach Boys perhaps it would be wise to not further create agitation by posting scenarios and speculation about Trump's association with The Beach Boys.

[CenturyDeprived]

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? It was marked as a "General On Topic Discussion" thread yet last I checked Toby Keith has f***-all to do with The Beach Boys. Last I checked there is no written or verifiable record of Mike Love ever stating that he wanted an award from Donald Trump. And yes, I'm sure I could get an essay full of "what-ifs" and straw-man arguments that point toward Mike Love working his hardest at trying to get this award, but in the end it is all pure speculation.

And with that said, for someone so concerned about The Beach Boys being tarnished by being associated with Donald Trump, CD, you sure are trying hard to further escalate that association here.

I'm annoyed at Mike for the crap he's done throughout the years. I was greatly annoyed by Mike's playing the Trophy Hunter gig. I'm annoyed at Mike for associating this beautiful and spiritual music with the toilet water of politics. But I also don't understand the point of this thread - if one is worried about fans being turned off by Mike's association with Trump, why create a thread (on the most popular Beach Boys forum ever) that further discusses Mike's association with Trump?

If Mike actually got an award I would completely understand if a thread were made (much like I was a huge opponent of Mike's actions in the Trophy Hunter thread). But no award was given to Mike. Mike hasn't publicly stated animosity towards Toby Keith. If we're annoyed about Trump being associated with The Beach Boys perhaps it would be wise to not further create agitation by posting scenarios and speculation about Trump's association with The Beach Boys.

I'm not trying to escalate the association, though I understand how you might feel it came across that way. I'm more just horrified by the association is all. I'm not particularly fond of censoring my feelings on the matter, but yes I do understand and respect what you are saying. I'm just worried about what this all means for the future. Anyway, I certainly hope fans will look past that association, even though I fear that a sizeable amount won't.

[Awesoman]

I googled “biggest jerks in rock and roll” and one site actually has John Lennon at #1, stating his abuse of his first wife among other things.  I don’t think the Beatles legacy has been severely damaged, nevertheless.

Keep in mind, while not defending any of that, and while it's apples and oranges to compare the two men and their behaviors, you're referring to events of 55+ years in the past, as opposed to an ongoing series of obviously completely different reputation-damaging behavior that continues repeatedly over time, which unfortunately coincides with media amplification and scrutiny during the digital age time period in which those events are occurring. Meaning, if John had lived and what you mentioned was something newly happening in 2021, you could better believe the 21st century heat he and the brand would endure would be off the charts.

Considering that Lennon has been dead for over 40 years now, how can you possibly know this?  More coulda/woulda/shoulda.

Realistically speaking, sadly, Dennis' name is rarely mentioned in big media articles without a reminder that he had a Manson connection. That unfortunate connection (which of course he deeply regretted) is forever linked, just as Mike's will be to Trump.

Exactly how has that Manson connection hurt Dennis' image overall?  I don't recall anyone actually shaming him for that experience.  Didn't his connection with Manson, in an odd way, kind of give Dennis some kind of street cred?  I think VDP even recalled that Dennis even beat up Manson once after he threatened his family.  Despite the odd connection, I don't think it has done anything to hurt either Dennis' image or the band's.  The band didn't seem to have a problem completely rewriting one of Manson's songs for their 20/20 album (which actually wasn't a bad song).  And if anything, Dennis' solo album Pacific Ocean Blue is even more popular now in the present than it ever was when he was still alive.

It's low hanging fruit. Blame it on clickbait or whatever you want, but ultimately that will be forever a stain on the legacy. One Mike/Trump show/connection might have made that fade quicker, but by golly Mike's many repeated Trump connections ensured that he LOVED to be associated with Trump, and Mike wanted the public to know that even as late as NYE 2021 after Trump had been voted out of office, during the time period when Mike's buddy Trump was planting the seeds for what would 6 days later be an insurrection. Mike wanted the world to know that even at that late date, he was still A-OK with publicly supporting Trump at an indoor maskless show. With Vanilla Freaking Ice. Crapping on the legacy.

More hyperbolic hysteria.  Exactly *how* and in what way have either of these connections with Manson and Trump truly hurt things for the band's image overall?  Love has been "crapping on the legacy" for years and yet I don't recall anyone burning their Pet Sounds albums when he put out Summer In Paradise.

It's too soon to really quantify the damage, only time will tell. Mind you, this whole thing only makes me incredibly sad, and I hate to see my favorite band repeatedly associated with Trump and dragged through the mud.

And yet again exactly how is the band being "dragged through the mud" here?  You do realize that 47 million people voted for Trump; think it's safe to say some of them probably are Beach Boys fans.  

And I'm going to just be brutally honest: just because Love supported an unpopular President and played a show for an unpopular group does not mean that he actually did anything objectively wrong, no matter how we may feel about it.  There are far worse things that Mike could be doing that could bring considerable damage to the brand name; these things are ultimately trivial.

If Trump flat out said "I could give a sh*t about Black/LGBTQ rights", "Hitler was vastly misunderstood and wasn't really such a bad guy", etc, - would Mike repeatedly supporting that person publicly be something you'd qualify as an objectively wrong action?

Sure, but Trump has never actually said any of these things, at least not publicly.  You realize that, right?  So exactly what is your point here?  

And like I said with my example earlier of people being turned off to an artist so much PRIOR to having given their music a chance, prior to being a fan, that they won't even bother... well that's an actual thing that happens. I can personally attest that it happens. It's not some super rare occurrence. One doesn't need to be a political extremist or zealout in order for this to happen, it's human nature sometimes.

I can give you a list of artists who are famous, who I've never listened to their music before (who I'm well aware of their actions/views which deeply don't jive with mine, to put it lightly) who I would simply choose to never give the time of day to due to the eww factor. They don't have the advantage of me having gotten emotionally invested in their music beforehand. I've never sat down and listened to a Ted Nugent, Kanye West, Gary Glitter album. Maybe there's great music I'm leaving on the table, but you know what? I'm ok with that. There's soooo much music out there, why would I push myself to try to emotionally connect to something by someone who already has planted that seed of being a total POS? So your comment "were they really fans to begin with" holds no water, because I'm talking about people whose fandom was stopped before it ever even started.

You have stated yourself that you are grandfathered into Beach Boys fandom; therefore you clearly are able to make a distinction between your dislike of Mike Love and your appreciation of the music (which kinda nerfs your entire viewpoint if you think about it).  Why is it so inconceivable for you to consider that other folks might be able to enjoy the music regardless as to what Mike Love does?  It's not as if the Beach Boys are this totally obscure, unknown group.  Even if you've never owned a single album chances are you've heard their music somewhere, whether it be on TV or the radio as they are a staple of American culture.  And if people don't want to give the band a chance regardless as to the reason, who cares?  How does this affect you?  Hell, I've been a megafan of the group for decades now and many of my friends don't understand why I enjoy them; that's fine!  It doesn't detract from my appreciation of them in the slightest.

Sorry if I've been coming off harsh but I am quite confident that you are completely going off the rails with this.  Your criticism and your points seem to only be based on one thing: your own hysteria over your own prejudices against both Love and Trump.  Clearly you don't like these guys; we get it.  And as I've stated numerous times before, it's perfectly fine that you don't like these guys.  You don't have to.  But I find this incessant ranting over "the Beach Boys' image is at stake" to be wearisome and totally unfounded paranoia, especially since you have yet to provide any factual, credible, objective evidence to support this argument.  You've only offered an endless parade of hyperbolic and conjectural "what-if's", anecdotal arguments "I know some folks are upset over this", and completely pointless and hysterical posts like this one about Trump giving an award to Toby Keith - which doesn't have anything at all to do with the Beach Boys.  All you're doing is ghost-hunting here.  Relax.  Breathe.  It's going to be okay.  

[DonnyL]

While I’m the first to call out how lame it is that Mike/“The Beach Boys” are associated in any way with Trump, I think the “Mike and Trump are similar” angle is a bit much, and not based in reality.

While Mike is often cast as one of the biggest villains in the town full of heroes & villains- I don’t believe Trump and Mike seem too similar aside from that kind of ego thing of seemingly having a tough time admitting you’re wrong, and placing blame on others.

What sets them apart in my observation is that Mile is ultimately a spiritual guy and an emotionally sensitive guy. Trump I believe might be an actual sociopath. I can’t envision Trump being a vegetarian, singing “All This is That”, and meditating. Let’s pause for a moment and the consider Mike Love, the artist that we admire in this way.

My theory- Mike liked being involved in “presidential” stuff again, and the pickings were so slim for the Trump camp, that the Trump era was the first time in many years Mike was able to place himself in a prominent position as being associated with a sitting President.

[rab2591]

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? It was marked as a "General On Topic Discussion" thread yet last I checked Toby Keith has f***-all to do with The Beach Boys. Last I checked there is no written or verifiable record of Mike Love ever stating that he wanted an award from Donald Trump. And yes, I'm sure I could get an essay full of "what-ifs" and straw-man arguments that point toward Mike Love working his hardest at trying to get this award, but in the end it is all pure speculation.

And with that said, for someone so concerned about The Beach Boys being tarnished by being associated with Donald Trump, CD, you sure are trying hard to further escalate that association here.

I'm annoyed at Mike for the crap he's done throughout the years. I was greatly annoyed by Mike's playing the Trophy Hunter gig. I'm annoyed at Mike for associating this beautiful and spiritual music with the toilet water of politics. But I also don't understand the point of this thread - if one is worried about fans being turned off by Mike's association with Trump, why create a thread (on the most popular Beach Boys forum ever) that further discusses Mike's association with Trump?

If Mike actually got an award I would completely understand if a thread were made (much like I was a huge opponent of Mike's actions in the Trophy Hunter thread). But no award was given to Mike. Mike hasn't publicly stated animosity towards Toby Keith. If we're annoyed about Trump being associated with The Beach Boys perhaps it would be wise to not further create agitation by posting scenarios and speculation about Trump's association with The Beach Boys.

I'm not trying to escalate the association, though I understand how you might feel it came across that way. I'm more just horrified by the association is all. I'm not particularly fond of censoring my feelings on the matter, but yes I do understand and respect what you are saying. I'm just worried about what this all means for the future. Anyway, I certainly hope fans will look past that association, even though I fear that a sizeable amount won't.

Consciously you may not be trying to escalate the association, but you're creating a speculative scenario to further associate the two. This thread is entirely centered around the "all-around terrible human" "brownnoser" Mike Love being possibly annoyed that he didn't get an art award from the "twice-impeached" "sociopath" president. Again, I have to stress that if one is horrified by the association between Trump and Love (and the subsequent backlash from fans) that perhaps one shouldn't create a thread on the most visited Beach Boys forum that shines a spotlight on a hypothetical scenario that could further intensify the animosity that some fans have toward the band regarding this situation.

[Awesoman]

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? It was marked as a "General On Topic Discussion" thread yet last I checked Toby Keith has f***-all to do with The Beach Boys. Last I checked there is no written or verifiable record of Mike Love ever stating that he wanted an award from Donald Trump. And yes, I'm sure I could get an essay full of "what-ifs" and straw-man arguments that point toward Mike Love working his hardest at trying to get this award, but in the end it is all pure speculation.

And with that said, for someone so concerned about The Beach Boys being tarnished by being associated with Donald Trump, CD, you sure are trying hard to further escalate that association here.

I'm annoyed at Mike for the crap he's done throughout the years. I was greatly annoyed by Mike's playing the Trophy Hunter gig. I'm annoyed at Mike for associating this beautiful and spiritual music with the toilet water of politics. But I also don't understand the point of this thread - if one is worried about fans being turned off by Mike's association with Trump, why create a thread (on the most popular Beach Boys forum ever) that further discusses Mike's association with Trump?

If Mike actually got an award I would completely understand if a thread were made (much like I was a huge opponent of Mike's actions in the Trophy Hunter thread). But no award was given to Mike. Mike hasn't publicly stated animosity towards Toby Keith. If we're annoyed about Trump being associated with The Beach Boys perhaps it would be wise to not further create agitation by posting scenarios and speculation about Trump's association with The Beach Boys.

I'm not trying to escalate the association, though I understand how you might feel it came across that way. I'm more just horrified by the association is all. I'm not particularly fond of censoring my feelings on the matter, but yes I do understand and respect what you are saying. I'm just worried about what this all means for the future. Anyway, I certainly hope fans will look past that association, even though I fear that a sizeable amount won't.

Consciously you may not be trying to escalate the association, but you're creating a speculative scenario to further associate the two. This thread is entirely centered around the "all-around terrible human" "brownnoser" Mike Love being possibly annoyed that he didn't get an art award from the "twice-impeached" "sociopath" president. Again, I have to stress that if one is horrified by the association between Trump and Love (and the subsequent backlash from fans) that perhaps one shouldn't create a thread on the most visited Beach Boys forum that shines a spotlight on a hypothetical scenario that could further intensify the animosity that some fans have toward the band regarding this situation.

Spot on.  I think this is more about feeding the anti-Mike paranoia than anything else.  It's no secret how polarizing the guy is and he undoubtedly has earned a lot of the criticism against him.  But this "hate Mike" hysteria really took a life of its own.   I don't think many folks who constantly feed into it realize how silly and irrational they come off as.  A lot of folks fretting about how allegedly fragile the Beach Boys' legacy is seem conveniently oblivious to the fact that this is a band that has existed in the mainstream for 60 years now and continues to be a steady part of pop culture.  They've endured constant ups & downs, endless infighting and dysfunction, lawsuits, death, mental illness, and countless other obstacles.  Yet despite all of this, there are still those who immediately fall to pieces every time Mike says or does something questionable or any other band misstep.  Believe it or not folks but you can care about the band's legacy while simultaneously being confident that it remains strong and unwavering.

[rab2591]

Believe it or not folks but you can care about the band's legacy while simultaneously being confident that it remains strong and unwavering.

Here's the way I view the legacy: the music of The Beach Boys is like a brilliantly lit star, and all the feuds, lawsuits, and questionable gigs are little annoying problems that orbit that star. If we constantly aim our telescopes at the problems then of course the music will be dimmed in our viewpoint. But if we change our perspective and just focus on the music it will shine brightly as ever.

These little issues will forever orbit the star. And Mike has done his best this past year to add more toxic debris to The Beach Boys solar system. But this doesn't change how incredible the music is. I do think that the legacy can be tarnished and hurt (or at least, the problems can continue to add up), but this baggage that accompanies the music doesn't change any of the harmonies or musical notes in the music itself. And the music is the most important thing. Perhaps this comparison is flawed, but it's the way I have looked at it for many years.

There are enough actual problems with this band that we don't need to start making up hypothetical ones. I mean, the title of this thread claims that Trump is "Mike's buddy" - implying these two are good friends or partners (which from actual evidence just isn't the case....playing a few gigs and getting your picture taken with someone doesn't make you buddies) - proving Awesoman's point that there is a lot of overdramatic hyperbole going on here. And if we're actually worried about potential fans being turned away from this music due to the Trump/Mike association then perhaps we shouldn't exaggerate their relationship.

Mike has done plenty of foolish things relating to Trump in the past few years, and each of those issues has had their own threads. But if we made a thread for every possible scenario where Mike Love could possibly get annoyed by something the server hosting this forum would burst into flames from bandwidth strain.

Anyways, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. Great posts, Awesoman.

[Awesoman]

Believe it or not folks but you can care about the band's legacy while simultaneously being confident that it remains strong and unwavering.

Here's the way I view the legacy: the music of The Beach Boys is like a brilliantly lit star, and all the feuds, lawsuits, and questionable gigs are little annoying problems that orbit that star. If we constantly aim our telescopes at the problems then of course the music will be dimmed in our viewpoint. But if we change our perspective and just focus on the music it will shine brightly as ever.

These little issues will forever orbit the star. And Mike has done his best this past year to add more toxic debris to The Beach Boys solar system. But this doesn't change how incredible the music is. I do think that the legacy can be tarnished and hurt (or at least, the problems can continue to add up), but this baggage that accompanies the music doesn't change any of the harmonies or musical notes in the music itself. And the music is the most important thing. Perhaps this comparison is flawed, but it's the way I have looked at it for many years.

There are enough actual problems with this band that we don't need to start making up hypothetical ones. I mean, the title of this thread claims that Trump is "Mike's buddy" - implying these two are good friends or partners (which from actual evidence just isn't the case....playing a few gigs and getting your picture taken with someone doesn't make you buddies) - proving Awesoman's point that there is a lot of overdramatic hyperbole going on here. And if we're actually worried about potential fans being turned away from this music due to the Trump/Mike association then perhaps we shouldn't exaggerate their relationship.

Mike has done plenty of foolish things relating to Trump in the past few years, and each of those issues has had their own threads. But if we made a thread for every possible scenario where Mike Love could possibly get annoyed by something the server hosting this forum would burst into flames from bandwidth strain.

Anyways, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. Great posts, Awesoman.

Thanks Rab and I agree with you.  I would even go as far as saying that all these idiosyncrasies, feuds and controversies actually enhance my interest in the group as a lot of these stories are downright fascinating from a historical standpoint.  To take into account everything this band has been through really makes it all the more worthwhile when they crank out good music.  And even if they've also produced at times some of the worst pop music known to man, even that stuff bakes into the cake with my fascination of them.  It might be useful to some of these doomsayers to try accepting things for how they are, and appreciating what we've got from this group.  Instead of endlessly obsessing over hypotheticals where the band inexplicably fades into obscurity. 

[CenturyDeprived]

Believe it or not folks but you can care about the band's legacy while simultaneously being confident that it remains strong and unwavering.

Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally know actual human beings (not hypothetical imaginary people) who have soured to the band/brand as a result of the endless barrage of Trump stuff. Those people who are turned off to the brand DO exist (it gives me zero pleasure to state that sad fact), so it's not possible to quantify the reputation as unwavering. I'm assuming those people are merely insignificant imbeciles in your book and couldn't possibly be indicative of a being a portion of other like-minded fans too,  because you'll say there haven't been mass boycotts or people marching in the street during a pandemic, etc to prove there has been any damage done.

I admit that everyone has their own social media bubble/echo chamber, and I am not above that myself (neither are you), but trust me when I tell you that there are people out there who feel this way. Trust me when I tell you that the concept of people who are not yet fans of an artist who will just dismiss that artist outright because of the artist's well-known disastrous political views/unhinged narcissism, exist. I will certainly agree these people absolutely aren't the majority of fans of this band. The band/brand has plenty of bedrock fans who don't care, and now will probably gain fans from the extreme right/Proud Boys crowd. So if you're OK with that, and with the idea of people being turned off to the brand in advance of becoming fans, if that doesn't bother you one bit and you want to just give your middle finger to those people, then the brand will be "OK" and there's nothing more to discuss.

I'm not trying to be a downer, but I don't want to live in the land of make-believe either. Do I think the brand will now shrivel up and die? No. Will hardcore and plenty of other casual fans stick around? Yep. But I think there's still harm that's been done. Maybe those folks who I know are in the minority of fans and simply "don't matter" in your view, but neither you nor I have any way of quantifying the number of people who this could effect.  All in all it's just another revenue stream of decay for the brand.

The only thing we can bicker about is the quantity of people this can effect, we cannot argue about the fact that the repeated Trump connection DOES and HAS affected some fans. I'm not making up the people of which I speak of, they're real.  I hate rehashing this, I'm only responding because I feel it's folly to just dismiss the truth. All we can dispute is the degree to which this hurts the brand, not if it hurts the brand.  

[Awesoman]

Believe it or not folks but you can care about the band's legacy while simultaneously being confident that it remains strong and unwavering.

Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally know actual human beings (not hypothetical imaginary people) who have soured to the band/brand as a result of the endless barrage of Trump stuff. Those people who are turned off to the brand DO exist (it gives me zero pleasure to state that sad fact), so it's not possible to quantify the reputation as unwavering. I'm assuming those people are merely insignificant imbeciles in your book and couldn't possibly be indicative of a being a portion of other like-minded fans too, merely because you'll say there haven't been mass boycotts or people marching in the street during a pandemic, etc to prove there has been any damage done. I admit that everyone has their own social media bubble/echo chamber, and I am not above that myself (neither are you), but trust me when I tell you that there are people out there who feel this way. I will certainly agree these people absolutely aren't the majority of fans of this band.

I'm not trying to be a downer, nor am I trying to harp about only bad stuff, but I think minimizing that and pretending it doesn't exist or doesn't matter is both unrealistic and absurd. Do I think the brand will now shrivel up and die? No. Will hardcore and plenty of other casual fans stick around? Yep. But I think there's still harm that's been done. I'm simply trying to not be an ostrich and call it like I see it. Maybe those folks who I know are in the minority of fans and simply "don't matter" in your view, but neither you nor I have any way of quantifying the number of people who this could effect.  

The only thing we can bicker about is the quantity of people this can effect, we cannot argue about the fact that the repeated Trump connection DOES and HAS affected some fans. I'm not making up the people of which I speak of, they're real.  I hate rehashing this, I'm only responding because I feel it's folly to just dismiss the truth. All we can dispute is the degree to which this hurts the brand, not if it hurts the brand.  

Actually we can totally dispute whether or not the Trump connection is having any real negative impact with the band.  Because again, you have produced no objective evidence that any significant fallout or backlash occurred to cause any lasting or irreparable damage to the band's name.  I don't nor have I ever disputed that you know people who soured over Love's connection with Trump; I'm sure these people exist and that's their business.  But my point is that just because some folks might be turned off over that, it doesn't mean that there has been any considerable reason to worry that the band's image is being dragged through the mud.  Maybe you feel that it does, but facts do not care about feelings because your argument here is completely subjective.  Because not everyone shares your views over Trump no matter how strongly you feel about them.  As I suggested before, do you not think that there are some Beach Boys fans out there that supported Trump?  And Love has been doing dodgy and questionable things for the entirety of the band's 60-year-old history; how are these recent matters any different?  I purposely keep bringing up the band's longevity because you don't seem to be able to see the forest for the trees. 

You seem highly fixated on worrying about how others might perceive this band.  May I ask you exactly why does this even matter?  If someone chooses to give up the band or decides for whatever reason not to give them a chance in the first place, exactly how does that affect you in any way?  People change their minds and their tastes all the time.  There is no practical way (as you suggested yourself) to gage these things for every single individual out there as everyone thinks differently.  All we can do is look at the bigger picture and the objective reality of the situation.  And both point to the fact that this is a band that has weathered the storm for decades, have had plenty of ups and downs and yet continue to be a part of our culture.  They've experienced far worse dilemmas than Mike Love entertaining a polarizing President.   Again, because there has been no public outcry or backlash against the Beach Boys over this, no banning of their music or burning of surfboards, I simply reject the arguments that "some folks took issue with this" or "someone somewhere could possibly reject the band as a whole" as legitimate reasons to worry here.  Conclusion: I think you are totally making a much bigger deal out of these things than necessary. 

[Occasional grilled cheese]

At most, some publications might have pulled clickbait thinkpieces from publication due to the optics of glorifying The Beach Boys in light of Mike's recent missteps, but who can really consider that as a loss or damage to their reputation? For a band that the world at large (read: not those who visit this site) sees in past tense, I think The Beach Boys can afford to let potential fans deal with their own cognitive dissonance as they see fit.

[CenturyDeprived]

Conclusion: I think you are totally making a much bigger deal out of these things than necessary.  

You're free to think that, and perhaps to some degree I am. Maybe you are underestimating things as well. Maybe the truth falls somewhere in the middle. Hell if either of us can say for sure. I still contend that the concept of long term decay and death (or diminishment) by 1000 cuts can happen over time, silently, in any number of ways that are not necessarily immediately obvious, despite your desire to have instant gratification piles of massive evidence. I care because the music matters to me very much, that is all.

This is all ultimately a matter of how repulsive one feels about Trump and one's favorite band's repeated connection to him. I'm sure if Mike started flying swastikas at BBs shows, you might not think that people who take issue with that are making a bigger deal out of things than necessary. Right? That would cross a line with you, right?  I'm always curious where people's lines are. Everyone must have a line somewhere, no?

It ultimately all depends on how big or small a gap one sees between repeated Trump support involving the brand name (against the wishes of 2 members - and probably against the wishes of 4 members if 2 deceased ones were living) and a hypothetical scenario I've just described.  I don't mean to turn this into a political debate, but there's no way to divorce political views/opinions from a discussion of how big a deal (or not big a deal) one sees the connection as. And how one thinks history will view Trump and will view his ardent supporters, and how that could impact the band's legacy on future generations. Minimize these fears away, as I'm sure you will.  I simply prefer not to have stains of this magnitude on the legacy of my favorite band.

The Trump/BBs connection is either gonna deeply repulse someone to the core to the swastika level, or it's not. Or somewhere between. As I said earlier, your mileage may vary. You clearly think this is merely an insignificant blip and no big deal and I won't be able to change your mind so I'll stop trying to even meet you halfway. It's OK, no hard feelings. We just won't agree on this.

Nothing as polarizing as Trump should EVER have come within contact of the brand name, that's the only certainty in this whole mess.

[Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll]

Lets just all agree that Trumps a piece of sh*t. We can all at least do that...right? 

[Awesoman]

Conclusion: I think you are totally making a much bigger deal out of these things than necessary.  

You're free to think that, and perhaps to some degree I am. I still contend that the concept of long term decay and death (or diminishment) by 1000 cuts can happen over time, silently, in any number of ways that are not necessarily immediately obvious, despite your desire to have instant gratification piles of massive evidence. I care because the music matters to me very much, that is all.

And that's perfectly fine.  The music matters to me as well; I just feel I am far more confident in the band's overall reputation and legacy than you appear to be.  Do you honestly believe that the Beach Boys are the only band or artist/entertainer that have done or said anything that irked some or any of their fans?  This happens all the time.  What are we supposed to do about it, retreat to a whimpering fetal position?  

And this should be painfully obvious but evidence is actually important in supporting your argument.  Because without any credible examples to point to, it makes you look rather foolish when all you can produce are strawman arguments.  

This is all ultimately a matter of how repulsive one feels about Trump and one's favorite band's repeated connection to him. I'm sure if Mike started flying swastikas at BBs shows, you might not think that people who take issue with that are making a bigger deal out of things than necessary. Right? That would cross a line with you, right?  I'm always curious where people's lines are. Everyone must have a line somewhere, no?

I am not interested in your endless "coulda/woulda/shoulda" arguments; I am only concerned with the objective reality of the matter.  You are not making *any* valid points by constantly leaning on hypothetical situations that have not actually occurred and it only makes you look like you are desperately clinging to a narrative you cannot defend.  

It ultimately all depends on how big or small a gap one sees between repeated Trump support involving the brand name (against the wishes of 2 members - and probably against the wishes of 4 members if 2 deceased ones were living) and a hypothetical scenario I've just described.  I don't mean to turn this into a political debate, but there's no way to divorce political views/opinions from a discussion of how big a deal (or not big a deal) one sees the connection as. And how one thinks history will view Trump and will view his ardent supporters, and how that could impact the band's legacy on future generations. Minimize these fears away, as I'm sure you will.  I simply prefer not to have stains of this magnitude on the legacy of my favorite band.

Dude, as a conservative let me tell you how many times I've been to a concert or read an interview of an artist/group I appreciated only to have them rant away against politicians and policies I don't have any problem with, or embracing policies/politicians that make me shudder.  It's a far more common occurrence for me since most of the entertainment industry is dominated by folks left-of-center.  It sure can be annoying sometimes, but that's life.  Not everyone sees things the same way; no point in being a total drama queen about it.  So cry me a river.

The Trump/BBs connection is either gonna deeply repulse someone to the core to the swastika level, or it's not. Or somewhere between. As I said earlier, your mileage may vary. Nothing as polarizing as Trump should EVER have come within contact of the brand name, that's the only certainty in this whole mess.

I refer you to every other response I have given you thus far: all of this you state is completely subjective as you seem to be acknowledging yourself somewhat.  I am not trying to convince you to change your mind about Trump (or Love for that matter); I'm simply challenging you to reevaluate your concerns with a more level-headed, pragmatic approach and not solely from baseless fears coming from your own echo chamber.  In any case we're just running around in circles at this point so unless you can present some kind of credible evidence to support your arguments, I don't think there is anything else I can say here.  

[Awesoman]

At most, some publications might have pulled clickbait thinkpieces from publication due to the optics of glorifying The Beach Boys in light of Mike's recent missteps, but who can really consider that as a loss or damage to their reputation? For a band that the world at large (read: not those who visit this site) sees in past tense, I think The Beach Boys can afford to let potential fans deal with their own cognitive dissonance as they see fit.

You said it far better in just several sentences than I could with my 4-5 responses.  

[guitarfool2002]

I'm all for a free and open forum for debate and discussion, and giving everyone a chance to say their thing, but I'm going to lock this thread tomorrow. So say what you need to say, try to keep it civil and above board, and that will be it for this one after tomorrow. 

[Awesoman]

I'm all for a free and open forum for debate and discussion, and giving everyone a chance to say their thing, but I'm going to lock this thread tomorrow. So say what you need to say, try to keep it civil and above board, and that will be it for this one after tomorrow.  

Probably just as well.  And for the record Century - again it's not my intention to pick on you too much nor do I even have any real problem with you.  Sometimes I just like getting into the spirit of the debate.  Definitely not personal.

[mtaber]

I’ll add that a great number of people who voted for Trump did so because they find Hillary Clinton to be an even more repulsive human being.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm all for a free and open forum for debate and discussion, and giving everyone a chance to say their thing, but I'm going to lock this thread tomorrow. So say what you need to say, try to keep it civil and above board, and that will be it for this one after tomorrow.  

Probably just as well.  And for the record Century - again it's not my intention to pick on you too much nor do I even have any real problem with you.  Sometimes I just like getting into the spirit of the debate.  Definitely not personal.

It's cool, and thanks. I don't take it personally, I just wish peace and love to you and everybody on this board as well as the band. The dark side of the force needs to take a hike.

[Lonely Summer]

As soon as I started seeing Mike do fundraisers for Satan, aka Donald Trump, i threw out all my Beach Boys records, cassettes, 8 tracks, cd's, and books.

Finding out about Dennis befriending Manson had the opposite effect. "Dennis was buds with Manson? That's cool! I gotta hear more Beach Boys music!"

BTW, my favorite Dennis song is "Never Learn Not to Love" aka "Cease to Exist".