Best point in time to break up-if any-to maximize the group's critical standing?

[thr33]

Yes, I'm sure this topic has been done a dozen times in slightly different ways but I couldn't find one about this specific question. I have seen plenty of hypotheticals about "what happens if the Beach Boys break up in [xxxx]".

So, what would have been the best point in time for the Beach Boys to break up to maximize their critical standing in the years following? (It's possible never breaking up is the correct answer.)

(I am leaving the meaning of breaking up as intentionally ambiguous so people can fill in the blanks of their own scenarios.)

[Tony S]

I think most people might point to the tarmac incident of 1977 since following that they really became an oldies band that put out a couple  more albums that did nothing and failed to enhance their critical reputation.

[rab2591]

I feel like anytime after Surf's Up they could've called it quits. And I say that only from a "critical standing" standpoint. No music critic in recent years has lauded the brilliance of BB85, or even Love You to an extent. The experimental rock influence of 'All I Wanna Do' is part of the pinnacle of the post-Pet Sounds era. But they never really achieved anything like that after Surf's Up. Don't get me wrong, I think there are gems on pretty much every post-Surf's Up album (definitely not counting Summer in Paradise) but those gems aren't anything a music critic would freak out over.

However, those gems are personally some of my favorite moments in The Beach Boys career. So to us fans that live and breathe The Beach Boys, we need every minute of their amazing and fractious career, and to music critics I feel like The Beach Boys could've hung it up after Surf's Up and their standing would be the same as it is today.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

I feel like anytime after Surf's Up they could've called it quits. And I say that only from a "critical standing" standpoint. No music critic in recent years has lauded the brilliance of BB85, or even Love You to an extent. The experimental rock influence of 'All I Wanna Do' is part of the pinnacle of the post-Pet Sounds era. But they never really achieved anything like that after Surf's Up. Don't get me wrong, I think there are gems on pretty much every post-Surf's Up album (definitely not counting Summer in Paradise) but those gems aren't anything a music critic would freak out over.

However, those gems are personally some of my favorite moments in The Beach Boys career. So to us fans that live and breathe The Beach Boys, we need every minute of their amazing and fractious career, and to music critics I feel like The Beach Boys could've hung it up after Surf's Up and their standing would be the same as it is today.

Well put, Rab. We do need every bit because those moments are getting fewer and fewer with each passing year. I would add that the break up should have taken place sometime between the unfortunate passing of Dennis and Carl. That situation fueled Mike Love's mission creep to capture the group and add his awful spin and send it down the oldies road to the terrible rickety, tacky skeleton it is today.

[phirnis]

Very few bands produce any of their best work when they're into their third, fourth or fifth decade. I'm glad they went on and on. Love You is a late masterpiece. They put out some pretty lukewarm stuff after that and SIP of course is awful but I'm still happy that stuff like Good Timin', Getcha Back or Pacific Coast Highway exists.

[Kid Presentable]

Doing it *at* Smile would have given them an all-time mystique in pop culture that would even make the likes of Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, and Kurt Cobain blush

[juggler]

Doing it *at* Smile would have given them an all-time mystique in pop culture that would even make the likes of Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, and Kurt Cobain blush

Have to agree.  If the group had disbanded in May 1967, we certainly would have missed out on a tidal wave of great Beach Boys songs, albums and concerts.  BUT purely in terms of this hypothetical, ending with a 1-2-3 punch of Pet Sounds-Good Vibrations-Smile (released or unreleased) would have put left them in the public mind on a plateau unmatched by any group except the Beatles.

[rab2591]

Doing it *at* Smile would have given them an all-time mystique in pop culture that would even make the likes of Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, and Kurt Cobain blush

Interesting thought. Personally, I think the years of dropping completed SMiLE songs on random albums after the SMiLE era is what gave so much ever-growing interest to the material over the decades. Like, to read about this magical music is one thing, but to hear ‘Surf’s Up’ for the first time from the self-titled album must’ve been utterly thrilling - and would beg the question from the listener: what does the other SMiLE material offer? Same goes for ‘Cabinessence’ - and this song wouldn’t even be in its current completed form had 20/20 never existed.

My history of SMiLE bootlegs may be completely off, but weren’t many of the bootlegs only leaked because The Beach Boys were still recording years later when someone gained access to the tapes and booted them in a studio? Point being, had The Beach Boys not have continued to record, who knows what would have happened to the tapes, and if anyone would have gotten the chance to bootleg them like they did. And if the tapes never leak, then does the mystique of SMiLE grow or slowly fade away?

Of course, the tapes would have likely leaked somehow, but the completed nature of many of those tracks released on future albums would have been lost had The Beach Boys never recorded ‘Smiley Smile’ and onward. Thus, I personally feel that The Beach Boys staying together post-SMiLE only helped the mystique of SMiLE (and subsequently the band’s mystique relating to that era) grow as large as it could have.

[guitarfool2002]

Doing it *at* Smile would have given them an all-time mystique in pop culture that would even make the likes of Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, and Kurt Cobain blush

Interesting thought. Personally, I think the years of dropping completed SMiLE songs on random albums after the SMiLE era is what gave so much ever-growing interest to the material over the decades. Like, to read about this magical music is one thing, but to hear ‘Surf’s Up’ for the first time from the self-titled album must’ve been utterly thrilling - and would beg the question from the listener: what does the other SMiLE material offer? Same goes for ‘Cabinessence’ - and this song wouldn’t even be in its current completed form had 20/20 never existed.

My history of SMiLE bootlegs may be completely off, but weren’t many of the bootlegs only leaked because The Beach Boys were still recording years later when someone gained access to the tapes and booted them in a studio? Point being, had The Beach Boys not have continued to record, who knows what would have happened to the tapes, and if anyone would have gotten the chance to bootleg them like they did. And if the tapes never leak, then does the mystique of SMiLE grow or slowly fade away?

Of course, the tapes would have likely leaked somehow, but the completed nature of many of those tracks released on future albums would have been lost had The Beach Boys never recorded ‘Smiley Smile’ and onward. Thus, I personally feel that The Beach Boys staying together post-SMiLE only helped the mystique of SMiLE (and subsequently the band’s mystique relating to that era) grow as large as it could have.

The full story was told on this board (and archived), but to sum up it was when the authorized BB's book by Byron Preiss was being compiled (around the time they were working on MIU) that a tape of Smile material was bartered in the process and that tape became the source of the first Smile bootlegs. Look for posts by Jeff Deutch, unfortunately he passed away in 2013 but he had been a guest on the old Smile Shop. Posts like these are invaluable:

Let me try to clear up some of the confusion here. Back in the mid '70's, I was a friend and neighbor of Byron Preiss. I had been a huge fan of The Beach Boys since the very beginning of their career and was a struggling independent record producer. One day in 1976, Byron and I were hanging out and I said to him, we should do a book about the Beach Boys. End of discussion. About a month later he asked to borrow my collection of magazine articles, pictures, etc. I had saved on the band and then...about a month after that, he came by and said, Guess what, we're doing the authorized biography of The Beach Boys. He was able to work a deal through Hanna-Barbera (The Flinstones) who at the time had the merchandising rights to the BB.
Cut to the fall of '77. Byron had worked extremely hard on the book. At my suggestion he had talked to some of the recording engineers and was going to cover the Smile album. I was also to do the Beach Boy's discography for the book. His biggest frustration was he had been unsuccessful in trying to talk directly to the members of the band. And we did not know that after playing a free concert in NY in Sept. '77, the band had a big fight and broke up.
Byron then received a call from Stan and Steve Love, saying that at least some of the guys would be together in Iowa and that he could talk to them there. So we got on a plane for MIU not having any idea what to expect.
As we were parking our rental car, we ran into Mike Love, who greeted us and said there is one rule..no cigarette smoking because they were trying to get Brian to quit. A few minutes later, Brian comes walking up to us, introduces himself, and is very excited when we show him artwork for Cool Cool Water and explain a little bit about the book. Things got a little crazy after that. The backing band was there as well as Stan and Steve Love and Dianne Rovell. Al Jardine arrived that evening. Diane was getting phone calls from Marilyn, who was talking to Carl Wilson. Everyone applauded when Diane had received word that Carl was back in the group. Later that night we spent hours talking to Al and then Mike.
We ended up staying 4 or 5 days because Brian kept putting off talking to us. On the third day Byron and I were hanging out, still waiting on Brian, when we spotted Diane sitting by herself. A rare moment when she wasn't at Brian's side. We went over to talk to her and she was as nice as could be. I asked her if there were any plans to do more recording with Spring. She was amazed that we even knew about Spring and said that Brian wanted to cut "This Could Be The Night", but that they couldn't find a copy of the record. When I told her I had a copy, she got really excited and said, I would do anything to get my hands on that. Half kidding, I said, how about a copy of the Smile tapes. To our amazement, she said no problem. Like it was an easy request to fulfill. Wow!!!
The next morning, they finally got Brian to have breakfast with us. Later that day you could see Brian's mood changing for the worse and Byron and I decided it was a good time to leave.
Of course, I sent my copy of This Could Be The Night to Diane as promised, as well as a tape of a song I was producing at that time. We spoke a few times by phone also. And sure enough, after a while Byron received a copy of demos for the California Feelin' album which became MIU. Also included was the tape which has become known as the Preiss tape.
I will come back later and explain what happened next, if there is any interest.

Jeff Deutch 

Continued from before...So Byron knocks on my door, hands me the cassettes, and tells me to make a copy for myself as long as I promise to not make copies for anyone else. I don't remember if I asked where they came from, whether it was directly from Diane or from Stan Love. It certainly didn't come from Dennis Wilson. We never got to meet him.
Byron wrote about the Smile songs from what he heard on the tape, from listening to the Smile songs which had been released..such as Cabinessence, other written accounts..as from Teen Set, and a tiny bit from what Brian had said at MIU..for instance I had asked Brian what the "air" section of the "Elements" was going to be and he answered that they had cut an instrumental piece.
A few months after Byron's book came out, I received a phone call, asking if I was the person involved with the book. It was Brad Elliot asking. I turned down his request to make a copy for him, but he kept calling and calling. He offered $1,000 for a copy next. I was flat broke at the time and it was very tempting, but again I turned him down.  Finally, he called saying that he was representing a collector, who had to remain nameless. Would I be willing to trade for a large batch of unreleased Beach Boys material including songs like Loop De Loop which I was dying to hear. I broke down and agreed to a trade. We continued to talk by phone and I ended up spending hours and hours helping him with his book, "Surf's Up". I asked that my credit be minimal because I wasn't sure if Byron would be upset.
A number of years ago, Brad admitted publicly that he was the one who turned the tape. In 2004, while in London for BWPS, I met "the collector" who was involved with the trade. A great guy who I will keep nameless at this time.

Jeff Deutch

I do agree the mystique among fans and specifically musicians who got hold of the Smile bootlegs kept the fire burning and spreading. Every time a known musician dropped a Smile reference in an interview, people reading those magazines (like me) would seek it out somewhere or somehow to hear what the fuss was about.

But again back to the Smile era itself, recall how there was a sentiment bubbling under everything else happening in 1966-67 that Brian may have been able to go out as a solo artist. Some were even suggesting that to him. Brother Records was set up in large part to allow band members to work on productions and with artists outside of being Beach Boys. There is an interview with Brian where he says the group nearly broke up around something with "Surfs Up". I have an interview from Summer '67 where Brian's attitude is in effect how long can we keep doing this as The Beach Boys, his phrase was "Beach Boy-ing". And keep adding up all of these references and quotes from Smile in '67 into '68 and despite Brian working on the new material and writing/producing for the band, there was something else bubbling under all of that which led directly to those quotes and things like the Redwood sessions and which goes all the way back to that whisper in the air of Brian "going solo".

So the biggest what if relevant to this topic could indeed be "what if" the band had put out Smile, what if they had Brother up and running as it was originally designed as an outlet for solo projects, and what if "The Beach Boys" had become an entity, a place to return for the members to work together rather than the keystone of their lives and careers?

[rab2591]

Guitarfool, can't thank you enough for digging those posts up. I was hoping someone would chime in with the story because my poor memory had forgotten all of the details.

I can't believe how lucky so many of us young fans were to be able to hit up Warnakey's Beach Boys blog to download bootlegs for free - and then when you learn the history behind some of those bootlegs haha. Also how lucky we all are that the puzzle pieces aligned in such a way where we got the most incredible SMiLE boxset we could have imagined, and that a super-fan named Darian was able to help Brian complete his version of SMiLE in 2004. What a timeline.

[Emdeeh]

Back to the original question, my feelings haven't changed on this issue. IMHO, there is no such thing as a good time for ANY act to break up to ensure the legacy. The legacy is the music left behind, everything else fades away.

For example, I'm still disappointed with REM for calling it quits, and I am grateful for the 3/4 reunion I attended (everyone except Stipe). And I'm also disappointed in how things resolved out in BB-land in late 2012, but at least Brian and Al got together. Mixed emotions, yep.

[Summertime Blooz]

Probably right after Holland  and In Concert was the final high point of their critical respectability under the guidance of Jack Riley, so that would be my answer to the question. In Concert was a highly successful summation of their entire career. Break up at the end of 1974 after a big farewell tour.

[tpesky]

The beachago tour is such a great moment I’d want and I think 1980 was the last great tour . I would say they should have taken a break in 77. Things were very hot and they could have used a break . They would have gotten together again for the money when the oldies bands became big in the early 80s.

[Join The Human Race]

They should have broke up before Brian's Back; in terms of keeping the legacy of the band near perfect. What we have gotten since Brian's Back is very hit or miss, to say the least. The tarmac incident should have been the last straw, but there was all that money on the table. Greed killed the band; the return to the top for several years in the 1970s corrupted them. It solidified the Beach Boys entourage problem. Obviously Landy gets the most publicity for leeches on the Beach Boys/Brian; but the late 1970s with Brian being guarded by Stan and Rocky is just terrible to think about. Brian was bullied by them for years all in the name of love. It's no wonder Brian relapsed in 1978. So many pressures were put on him with Brian's Back. So many careers depended on Brian magically turning back the clock to sound like 1964. The fact we get 3 Brian heavy albums (not to mention Adult/Child and other bootlegs) from 76-78 is kind of a miracle. Brian was also touring during these years until his relapse in August of 78. Just so much pressure put on him; from Mike, from Landy then Rocky/Stan, from the band, from the labels, etc. So if the Beach Boys ended after Holland, their legacy would be pretty impeccable.

[Gerry]

the story about the Smile bootleg tape sure brings back a lot of memories. I got it from my friend John Pickens in, I think 1981. Both John, Les Chan and myself were pretty thick in those days. I have a feeling Derek Bill had something to do with the bootleg

[saborlord123]

I think smile was the best point to break up if you want the band to be viewed on par with the beatles, rolling stones, the who etc to the general public... smile is kinda their apex. They never reached the same heights again...

But at the same time, I will say sunflower. That album felt like their abbey road, and would have been perfect to end on that note.

[thetojo]

Critical standing, as opposed to commercial standing - somewhere between Holland and 15 Big Ones.

15 Big Ones was an unmitigated sell-out.

[Lonely Summer]

Commercially - 1967 - everybody hated Smiley Smile, their worst selling album up to that point. They should have broke up instead of putting out that album - an album I love.

Critically - 1973 - Carl and Dennis should have left the group to do their own thing. Mike could have continued touring using the Beach Boys name, using Endless Summer as the theme for his endless tours. Al might have gone along with Mike - the other "clean" member of the group; or he might have retired to a ranch in Big Sur. Don't know what Mike would have done with Blondie and Ricky; they probably would have joined Carl and Dennis. Guessing Bruce would have joined Mike's group to perfect the art of playing unamplified keyboards, and adjusting mike stands.

Brian would have finally been free to record and release the kind of songs he wanted to do. His first solo hit is a song about running out to Carnie and Wendy's school bus to ask the driver for a pack of smokes. The b-side is a song about how he's gonna take that pack of smokes and flush it down the commode.

[Robbie Mac]

Back to the original question, my feelings haven't changed on this issue. IMHO, there is no such thing as a good time for ANY act to break up to ensure the legacy. The legacy is the music left behind, everything else fades away.

For example, I'm still disappointed with REM for calling it quits, and I am grateful for the 3/4 reunion I attended (everyone except Stipe). And I'm also disappointed in how things resolved out in BB-land in late 2012, but at least Brian and Al got together. Mixed emotions, yep.

I disagree wholeheartedly. It is better to leave the audience wanting more than it is to overstay your welcome.

REM was a shell of what it was when Bill Berry was in the band. And they knew it. Their peak in popularity was also in the rear view mirror and they were slowly becoming what they said they didn’t want to be: a band putting out albums just for the sake doing so. They honored the contract with Warner Brothers that they signed the year before Berry quit and dissolved the band. There is an argument to be made that they long since outstayed their welcome since every new REM album was starting to be greeted with a “ho hum” response since UP.  They were self aware enough to see that and started to plot their exit strategy. That’s a stance that should be respected, not mourned.

[thr33]

Thinking back to this, it's probably either 67 (Smile comes out) or 71 (it doesn't), I think there is no higher high to go out on than having Surf's Up as your swan song (I'm assuming it would've been the closer had Smile been finished).

I am obsessed with the Brian's Back era (listening to some late 77 concerts right now) but it didn't have the same widespread appeal. I'm happy they didn't break up then because there's a lot of great music, but I think that would really enhance the band's legend.

[Join The Human Race]

Holland. I love Love You and Adult/Child, but that period in general is such a low point for the band. Endless Summer ruined them, making them a corporation, in which each member is different, but they stick together because of the money.

[phirnis]

I think Endless Summer saved them in many ways; creatively, though, they drew the wrong conclusions from its success. The early material is so magical and timeless because of Brian's youthful creativity and because it was completely authentic. Nobody wanted to hear albums like M.I.U. or Keepin' the Summer Alive from these guys because they sounded so contrived and sometimes even cynical. I'm a huge Holland fan despite Brian's limited input and one thing that I love about this album is how Mike and Al managed to write about California in a way that, again, was authentic considering they were in their early 30s by then. Al's "California Saga" borrows heavily from "California Girls" but it does sound joyful and convincing, unlike something like "Kona Coast" from five years later. I do like the music on their earlier 70s albums but for me, Holland is the one where they really found a good consistent 70s sound for the band. In typical Beach Boys manner, they stopped after this one of course, so I'm just thankful that this album exists, definitely my favorite from that decade together with Love You.

[feelintheflows]

I think most people might point to the tarmac incident of 1977 since following that they really became an oldies band that put out a couple  more albums that did nothing and failed to enhance their critical reputation.

What was the incident?

[All Summer Long]

I think most people might point to the tarmac incident of 1977 since following that they really became an oldies band that put out a couple  more albums that did nothing and failed to enhance their critical reputation.

What was the incident?

There was a massive fight within the band on Al’s birthday. Mike and Al were jealous of the response to POB. Al told Dennis the band didn’t need them now that Dennis had a solo career. Dennis told Al he could only play four chords. They split up for two weeks, until Mike was given Brian’s vote. Dennis was also told in this time he’d be fired if he did a POB solo tour (which Carl was going to join him for). A minor compromise was that he was allowed to play a couple POB songs in the next few BB shows.

[feelintheflows]

I think most people might point to the tarmac incident of 1977 since following that they really became an oldies band that put out a couple  more albums that did nothing and failed to enhance their critical reputation.

What was the incident?

There was a massive fight within the band on Al’s birthday. Mike and Al were jealous of the response to POB. Al told Dennis the band didn’t need them now that Dennis had a solo career. Dennis told Al he could only play four chords. They split up for two weeks, until Mike was given Brian’s vote. Dennis was also told in this time he’d be fired if he did a POB solo tour (which Carl was going to join him for). A minor compromise was that he was allowed to play a couple POB songs in the next few BB shows.

Ooh yea totally forgot about this, thank you. Does anyone know of any fist fights between members? Besides Mike and Dennis