It’s OK

[guitarfool2002]

One more point - it was said at the time that Bruce had a two-album producer deal, so that's why he took the reigns for KTSA even though L.A. wasn't a hit. Again, it was probably the label who initiated that deal, with the band's support, of course. After KTSA bombed, the hope among the fanbase, of course, was that Brian would resume the producer role. But the band, especially Carl, were intent on having a "marketable" product - they had already let Brian run the show for a couple of albums, and the results were disastrous in their eyes, so that's why they decided to bring in an outside producer, with Levine eventually getting the nod due to Bruce's recommendation and his recent chart success with Culture Club.

But wasn't it Carl who actually ended up producing or "cleaning up" the final mixes and songs on those mid-to-late 70's albums where Brian was supposed to be running the show? I'm thinking the argument could have been made that since Carl was the one finishing off those albums (call it 'fixing' or production or post-production) after Brian did what he did for them, it was Carl's work that made the final results of those albums not as marketable. Maybe fans wanted to hear a pure Brian Wilson production warts and all at that time, and they didn't get that.

I'd also add that if the band either hoped or expected Brian Wilson from 1978-1981 to produce and write like "the good old days", they were delusional. And I have to think at some point the idea of new Beach Boys music and albums was sidelined in favor of the solo material fans got instead. Carl bailed for a time, Mike had his solo projects, Brian was in a very bad place, Dennis was into his own things...I think the only ones left were Al and Bruce as far as producing anything new. But marketable? That's not what fans got anyway, for the most part, at least until Levine and Melcher got involved and you started to hear new BB's tracks on the radio (and MTV).

[Join The Human Race]

I was wondering about this tonight on my walk when listening to some tracks from Love You. How much did Carl contribute in the final production of Love You and 15 Big Ones. I think it might have been trying to sweeten up the rough side of Brian's return. I am a fan of Brian's material during this time, but I also recognize why it wasn't popular. I find it hard how Holland pre-Sail On, Sailor was rejected but 15 Big Ones and Love You were accepted. I don't know if it was screw what the product actually is, as long as we can market a Brian Wilson production while the time is hot. I think Carl and Dennis went along with it because they loved Brian. Al was just there because Al was always there. I don't know what Mike felt during this time. 15 Big Ones seems like an album Mike would like; both he and Brian playing oldies again. I give credit to It's OK because it sounds the best like a classic Beach Boys song, classic as in All Summer Long grown up. It hides Brian's rough voice, it's quick, short, commercial, and features a good counter play of their voices. Brian's voice shouldn't be that prominent because it was so rough and sometimes it's weird to hear gruff Brian sing songs like Chapel of Love. I really wonder what was Brian's thought process during this time. He basically was being force to make music during this time and how much of what he contributed as incomplete or bizarre; as a possible passive aggressive way of manipulation. You're putting me back out here against my will so I'm just going to write, record whatever, and call it a day. Brian has given praise for Love You as his favorite Beach Boys album. Contemporary interviews indicate that Brian was really proud of these songs. So then why does Carl came in and contribute so much? Was it a last ditch effort to fix the raw Brian no one was expecting? I have no idea what Carl thought of Love You. Did he ever talk about that time/those songs? Mike referred to it in his autobiography something in the vain of that thing Brian did. Did the guys have a naive belief that putting Brian into a studio would generate big hits? A lot I don't know.
?

[c-man]

As much as I love Love You and have a deep affection for parts of 15 Big Ones, they were NOT commercial records by 1976-77 standards (aside from the two singles on Big Ones), and only really marketable as curiosity "come-back" albums - no matter what Carl did to them. If you listen to tracks like "Chapel Of Love", "That Same Song", "Back Home", "In The Still Of The Night", "Mona", "Solar System", "I Wanna Pick You Up", "Let's Put Our Hearts Together", "Love Is A Woman"...it's clear that the vocal performances and arrangements were NOT going to be appreciated, understood, or enjoyed by the great unwashed masses. No matter what Carl did to make them more presentable in the mix, the only way they would've had a chance at mass appeal would have been to be completely re-recorded in a style that fit in with what was getting played on the radio in those days.

Again, I'm quite fond of both, but that's 'cause I (like most of us here) "get it" - but Joe Average Record Buyer back then definitely did not, and would not. I think Mike and Al and the band's management were banking on the "Produced by Brian Wilson" tag being enough to ensure big hit albums, and Carl and Dennis were supportive enough of their big brother to let him go for it - but after the dismal sales and/or reviews (mostly dismal reviews for Big Ones, mostly dismal sales for Love You, but certainly some of both for both), both factions of the band  - and their new label - said "Enough is enough", and decided from that point on to only make albums with more "mainstream" appeal. Let's face it, these guys came up in the business having big hit records, and to a very large extent, that's how they (including Brian) measure success. Having a series of "bombs" tends to humble you, and especially with a new label to please, they couldn't afford to release product that they knew wouldn't stand a realistic chance of success.

[thetojo]

We are all lucky that JWGuercio was so supportive of Carl and Dennis in those late 70s / early 80s years.

The band could have easily been scrap-heaped at that juncture, with no-one willing to support them unless and until they actually produced something commercial, which they never really did in that era.

[CenturyDeprived]

We are all lucky that JWGuercio was so supportive of Carl and Dennis in those late 70s / early 80s years.

The band could have easily been scrap-heaped at that juncture, with no-one willing to support them unless and until they actually produced something commercial, which they never really did in that era.

Truth.

[Gerry]

C-man hits it on the head. This was also another time that the BB's blew it big time with the general public. After the two-part article on Brian in Crawdaddy the expectations were high and once again they just blew it. I to have great affection for those two albums but they were not for the general public.

[All Summer Long]

I also agree that c-man described it well, but I want to talk a little more about “That Same Song.” I know it’s been discussed previously on the board about Brian subconsciously sabotaging the record, or Stephen Moffitt’s engineering ruining the record, but this was one definitely could be better. I haven’t seen the full 1976 TV special, but I have seen the band and choir performing “That Same Song” and that clearly crushes the album version.

[guitarfool2002]

As much as I love Love You and have a deep affection for parts of 15 Big Ones, they were NOT commercial records by 1976-77 standards (aside from the two singles on Big Ones), and only really marketable as curiosity "come-back" albums - no matter what Carl did to them. If you listen to tracks like "Chapel Of Love", "That Same Song", "Back Home", "In The Still Of The Night", "Mona", "Solar System", "I Wanna Pick You Up", "Let's Put Our Hearts Together", "Love Is A Woman"...it's clear that the vocal performances and arrangements were NOT going to be appreciated, understood, or enjoyed by the great unwashed masses. No matter what Carl did to make them more presentable in the mix, the only way they would've had a chance at mass appeal would have been to be completely re-recorded in a style that fit in with what was getting played on the radio in those days.

Again, I'm quite fond of both, but that's 'cause I (like most of us here) "get it" - but Joe Average Record Buyer back then definitely did not, and would not. I think Mike and Al and the band's management were banking on the "Produced by Brian Wilson" tag being enough to ensure big hit albums, and Carl and Dennis were supportive enough of their big brother to let him go for it - but after the dismal sales and/or reviews (mostly dismal reviews for Big Ones, mostly dismal sales for Love You, but certainly some of both for both), both factions of the band  - and their new label - said "Enough is enough", and decided from that point on to only make albums with more "mainstream" appeal. Let's face it, these guys came up in the business having big hit records, and to a very large extent, that's how they (including Brian) measure success. Having a series of "bombs" tends to humble you, and especially with a new label to please, they couldn't afford to release product that they knew wouldn't stand a realistic chance of success.

Several ironies and points to consider too. That tour where they were playing the "Love You" material mixed in with the 60's hits was a massive success, in fact isn't it one of their most successful tours on the books in the band's history? So the fans may have been "tolerating" the material, yet I don't think the new songs were getting booed or heckled at those shows. And I think part of the draw was that Brian was actually on stage with them, even though his participation varied show to show. But as they say in the business, the numbers don't lie - The band made a fortune touring behind that uncommercial album.

That leads to another point. As much as the hardcore fans know and appreciate what he did, I think Carl's strength was more in keeping the live show running and the band tight - respecting the music and ensuring it was presented in top form - rather than as a studio producer. If we're talking strictly commercial, were any of Carl's studio productions successful, or did any of them sell in any large numbers? That's what I was getting at in my previous comments, I think pointing at Brian's state at the time and his work is one thing, but Carl went in and touched up, finished in some cases, and "produced" a lot of that material. So maybe if it had been left alone and unfiltered, the curiosity factor may have driven sales no matter how bizarre some of it was. It's just hypothetical, of course.

As far as commercial viability, consider 1976 and 1977. It's not like the band didn't have a publicity blitz working in their favor. I don't think they'd see that level of widespread media attention for well over another decade. Look who came calling - Rolling Stone with a cover story, network television with full specials, Saturday Night Live with a solo spot for Brian, radio specials...all of those in the mid 70's were huge profile-boosting outlets. SNL especially, I've heard that Billy Joel chose to skip his high school reunion when SNL offered him a slot to perform because labels were literally battling each other to get their artists on that show during the Belushi era once they saw sales spike the week after an artist appeared.

But the albums and singles just didn't have the same juice as the live shows.

And the irony is that when the Boys consciously tried to present "commercial" albums in the late 70's and 80's, they bombed worse than the weird sh*t! I'm reminded of the famous Walter Yetnikoff quote after hearing a preview of the band's first offering for their new label, along the lines of "we've just been f***ed". So when the band did overtly try to go commercial, it laid a bigger egg.

Ironic too that something like "Good Vibrations" would come off as non-commercial even among some in the band yet it became an iconic #1 record. Same with Barbara Ann, again reminded of a Capitol exec telling Brian it won't work after getting a preview, and Brian walking out the door holding the record above his head and saying "this will be our next single" as he walked out the door - Brian was right. Another iconic hit that was thought to be uncommercial.

It's all what-if's and Monday-morning quarterbacking 44 years later, but points worth considering.

[guitarfool2002]

Just adding that the various labels the band was on throughout the 70's had conditions on the band and their contracts with these labels that Brian be involved in creating the music, so it wasn't just the band trying to get him visible on the credits to try to get more sales. The labels contractually demanded Brian's presence on what they were handing in as part of their contract, and that speaks volumes.

[Steve Latshaw]

"I'm reminded of the famous Walter Yetnikoff quote after hearing a preview of the band's first offering for their new label, along the lines of "we've just been f***ed". So when the band did overtly try to go commercial, it laid a bigger egg."
According to Jerry Schilling, Walter said that quote in the summer of 1978 when the Beach Boys flew to New York to meet with CBS.  CBS was upset that they'd received nothing from The Beach Boys since they'd signed the previous year.  Schilling and the band walked in and sat down.  Walter leaned forward and said that famous line. It didn't have anything to do with LA session tapes.  According to Jerry, at that point, Brian came to the rescue of the meeting and said he had some definite ideas for the first CBS album and wanted to go to Criteria in Miami to record.  After the Criteria sessions, a tape was assembled for CBS that included California Feelin', Santa Ana Winds, Baby Blue, Love Surrounds Me, Good Timin', Brian's Back, Calendar Girl, Lookin' Down the Coast, Shortnin' Bread and a demo of I'm Beggin' You Please.  The label found it promising and with CBS Producer Bruce Johnston at the helm, recording continued.

[guitarfool2002]

"I'm reminded of the famous Walter Yetnikoff quote after hearing a preview of the band's first offering for their new label, along the lines of "we've just been f***ed". So when the band did overtly try to go commercial, it laid a bigger egg."
According to Jerry Schilling, Walter said that quote in the summer of 1978 when the Beach Boys flew to New York to meet with CBS.  CBS was upset that they'd received nothing from The Beach Boys since they'd signed the previous year.  Schilling and the band walked in and sat down.  Walter leaned forward and said that famous line. It didn't have anything to do with LA session tapes.  According to Jerry, at that point, Brian came to the rescue of the meeting and said he had some definite ideas for the first CBS album and wanted to go to Criteria in Miami to record.  After the Criteria sessions, a tape was assembled for CBS that included California Feelin', Santa Ana Winds, Baby Blue, Love Surrounds Me, Good Timin', Brian's Back, Calendar Girl, Lookin' Down the Coast, Shortnin' Bread and a demo of I'm Beggin' You Please.  The label found it promising and with CBS Producer Bruce Johnston at the helm, recording continued.

That's according to Jerry, but the impression I got was that Yetnikoff said that infamous line after hearing demos or roughs of what the band had been working on, not because they didn't have anything. I've also heard Yetnikoff added a line about wanting the label's money back! 

Here's what Ed Roach said, and maybe Ed can clarify further since he was there, though I'm sure he has already done that:

Also something I didn't know-when Yetnikoff of Columbia Records told the BBs that he had been f--ked, it was said at the Columbia office in New York. To which Brian allegedly raised his hand and said "I think I have some good ideas for [L.A.}, let me record at Criteria in Miami."

Back to the actual topic of the thread, so is the assertion here that Yetnikoff responded in this fashion to recordings made *prior* to any sessions at Criteria in Miami?

In a recent post ( http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,4151.msg559026.html#msg559026 ), the reel Yetnikoff listened to was reportedly as follows:

California Feelin'
Santa Ana Winds (1st mix)
Love Surrounds Me (early mix)
Baby Blue (early Mix/Carl vocal)
I'm Beggin' You Please (Brian demo)
Lookin Down the Coast
Brian's Back
Calendar Girl (Criteria version - not the later, polished and unheard Bruce Johnston production)
Good Timin' (1974 with Carl scratch vocal)
Shortnin' Bread (I believe this was a new instrumental track... basic track for the released version without vocals - not the Adult Child version)

This included some things recorded in Miami I believe.

I was there when this happened, (in fact, I think I was the first one ever quoted on this), and it most definitely took place at Criteria in Miami.

So that suggests the comment came after tapes were played.

[c-man]

The CBS contract reportedly included a requirement that Brian write or produce at least 80% of their recorded output - so in the end, they DID get "f**ked"! Warners didn't make such a specific demand, but they obviously wanted as much Brian as they could get - which was relatively little until the last three albums. 

[Lonely Summer]

The CBS contract reportedly included a requirement that Brian write or produce at least 80% of their recorded output - so in the end, they DID get "f**ked"! Warners didn't make such a specific demand, but they obviously wanted as much Brian as they could get - which was relatively little until the last three albums. 

Yes. How much was Brian involved in LA? One co-write - Good Timin'; and his version of Shortenin' Bread. If CBS signed the group in the belief that Brian was truly back, they did indeed get f----d.
KTSA has a bunch of Brian/Mike co-writes, but Brian didn't produce the album, and vocally, there's not much evidence of him being there. The only one of those Wilson/Love songs that really stands out is "Goin' On".

[phirnis]

The CBS contract reportedly included a requirement that Brian write or produce at least 80% of their recorded output - so in the end, they DID get "f**ked"! Warners didn't make such a specific demand, but they obviously wanted as much Brian as they could get - which was relatively little until the last three albums. 

Yes. How much was Brian involved in LA? One co-write - Good Timin'; and his version of Shortenin' Bread. If CBS signed the group in the belief that Brian was truly back, they did indeed get f----d.
KTSA has a bunch of Brian/Mike co-writes, but Brian didn't produce the album, and vocally, there's not much evidence of him being there. The only one of those Wilson/Love songs that really stands out is "Goin' On".

Even Shortenin' Bread doesn't sound like he was really involved, more like it was a recording loosely based on a Brian Wilson idea.

[WillJC]

.

[phirnis]

The CBS contract reportedly included a requirement that Brian write or produce at least 80% of their recorded output - so in the end, they DID get "f**ked"! Warners didn't make such a specific demand, but they obviously wanted as much Brian as they could get - which was relatively little until the last three albums.  

Yes. How much was Brian involved in LA? One co-write - Good Timin'; and his version of Shortenin' Bread. If CBS signed the group in the belief that Brian was truly back, they did indeed get f----d.
KTSA has a bunch of Brian/Mike co-writes, but Brian didn't produce the album, and vocally, there's not much evidence of him being there. The only one of those Wilson/Love songs that really stands out is "Goin' On".

Even Shortenin' Bread doesn't sound like he was really involved, more like it was a recording loosely based on a Brian Wilson idea.

The lead guitar and vocals might give that impression, but the track itself underneath is all Brian. It's a poor mix that buries a lot of the arrangement.
...

That lead guitar is what really destroys that version for me. Whoever thought it was a good idea to add this, it really wasn't.

[c-man]

The lead guitar and vocals might give that impression, but the track itself underneath is all Brian. It's a poor mix that buries a lot of the arrangement.

Curt Becher spoke of how difficult it was to mix that track ("Shortenin' Bread") in an interview with BBFUN, published in 1980. He said there was just so much going on in that song. Not sure if his was the final mix or not, but obviously that one was a bit of a bear. Someone once said, "To mix is a bitch." Guess this track was proof of that!

[guitarfool2002]

Two points about Yetnikoff: I'm sure it's been hammered out before but I just can't dig up every reference. So there are two reports from two men who were present for these meetings, Ed Roach and Jerry Schilling. They seem to contradict each other as to when and where that famous Yetnikoff quote "we've just been f***ed" happened. Schilling says it was in New York, implying that he said this because the band had nothing to show, to which Brian spoke up and said he wanted to record at Criteria in Florida. Ed Roach says he was at Criteria when it happened, which contradicts Schilling's timeline.

So which is it and what exactly happened?

Second about Yetnikoff: An interesting point came out in an interview with Bruce from the late 70's. Bruce said Yetnikoff was open to the idea of the Beach Boys going in a more "disco" route anyway, if not encouraging it or hoping they'd do more in that style. So that corresponds with the recent discussions here about the Here Comes The Night disco remake. I mention all that because it does paint at least a partial picture of what the *label* thought would be commercial and had a good chance of selling more records at that time.

Again, as seems to be the case quite often, when the band did try to go that route and truly "go commercial", it bombed.

[Seagull Merlin]

This may steer the topic slightly, but in regards to what Carl did to Love You is the “alternate versions” of tracks like the night was so young and let’s put our hearts together Brian’s original productions pre Carl or are they just different mixes?

[WillJC]

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