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663639 Posts in 26587 Topics by 3815 Members - Latest Member: ILikeTheBeachBoys October 31, 2020, 01:12:19 AM
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Author Topic: Brian, Carolyn Williams, and 1979-1982  (Read 4663 times)
Lonely Summer
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« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2020, 06:12:03 PM »

I get it that Brian was on a very self-destructive path with coke and overeating in 1982, and I get the argument that Brian was a difficult patient, and that it took extreme measures like Landy's to get him off the path that he was on. So, yes, Landy's radical intervention in that period achieved the desired result, and it's understandable why Carl et al. were initially happy with him.  

But, man, Landy was a bad guy.   Yes, Brian did indeed need to get off his diet of cocaine, birthday cake and Marlboros.    But a daily smorgasbord of Eskalith, Serentil, Cogentin, Xanax, pot and Navane wasn't necessarily all that much better.   And in fact may have been worse in some respects.

Aside from being hacks as medical professionals, the Landy crew's separation of Brian from his family was absolutely inexcusable.  I get that it may have been necessary to separate Brian from a few people who were toxic for him, but teenagers Carnie & Wendy?  Come on.   And Audree?  Think about that one for a minute.  Audree Wilson spent almost the entire '80s separated from her oldest son.  How painful must have that been? Especially after the loss of Dennis.  

To say, "well, don't forget that Landy saved Brian's life" misses the mark a bit.  It's a bit like talking about some legitimate act of heroism of a military leader... that was followed by a long string of war crimes committed by the same dude.
We were talking about Carolyn Williams, and Landy's staff kidnapping Brian. All I was saying that something had to be done to help Brian, and in the short term, Landy's treatment did Brian a lot of good. I'm not denying that Landy then abused his position when he became co-writer, executive producer, etc.
What I still don't know is, what alternative was there to Landy? Brian had seen other doctors. No one seemed to be able to help him. I don't know anything about Carolyn, but when Brian was with her, his drug and alcohol abuse was at it's worst. I've always been told that Brian's condition was so bad in 1982 that he could have died. Is that in dispute now?
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c-man
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« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2020, 07:52:46 PM »

I get it that Brian was on a very self-destructive path with coke and overeating in 1982, and I get the argument that Brian was a difficult patient, and that it took extreme measures like Landy's to get him off the path that he was on. So, yes, Landy's radical intervention in that period achieved the desired result, and it's understandable why Carl et al. were initially happy with him.  

But, man, Landy was a bad guy.   Yes, Brian did indeed need to get off his diet of cocaine, birthday cake and Marlboros.    But a daily smorgasbord of Eskalith, Serentil, Cogentin, Xanax, pot and Navane wasn't necessarily all that much better.   And in fact may have been worse in some respects.

Aside from being hacks as medical professionals, the Landy crew's separation of Brian from his family was absolutely inexcusable.  I get that it may have been necessary to separate Brian from a few people who were toxic for him, but teenagers Carnie & Wendy?  Come on.   And Audree?  Think about that one for a minute.  Audree Wilson spent almost the entire '80s separated from her oldest son.  How painful must have that been? Especially after the loss of Dennis.  

To say, "well, don't forget that Landy saved Brian's life" misses the mark a bit.  It's a bit like talking about some legitimate act of heroism of a military leader... that was followed by a long string of war crimes committed by the same dude.
We were talking about Carolyn Williams, and Landy's staff kidnapping Brian. All I was saying that something had to be done to help Brian, and in the short term, Landy's treatment did Brian a lot of good. I'm not denying that Landy then abused his position when he became co-writer, executive producer, etc.
What I still don't know is, what alternative was there to Landy? Brian had seen other doctors. No one seemed to be able to help him. I don't know anything about Carolyn, but when Brian was with her, his drug and alcohol abuse was at it's worst. I've always been told that Brian's condition was so bad in 1982 that he could have died. Is that in dispute now?

Well, Brian was in equally bad shape, or close to it, in '75, and he was with Marilyn then. So I don't think it's a case of Carolyn herself being bad for Brian, anymore than it was a case of Marilyn being bad for him. True, Carolyn was a nurse and Marilyn wasn't, but since Carolyn was also in a personal relationship with Brian, I suspect she had little to no actual control over his behavior - if that makes sense. She could take his blood pressure, change his bandage if he had a boo-boo, but she wasn't a doctor, and therefore couldn't "treat" him. Essentially, she followed a doctor's orders until she quit working for the doctor and started working directly for Brian. And remember, it's been said that Brian in this state was very, very good at manipulating people to get what he wanted. Landy - as evil as he turned out to be, and possibly because of that - was the only one would prove to be better at Brian's game than Brian himself, and therefore was more than a match in the game of wits.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 07:54:07 PM by c-man » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2020, 04:23:47 PM »

I've read often about Brian's manipulation of others and I've always wondered how that worked; especially during the late 70s, early 80s. It seems like Carl played a big role in getting Landy back and I am sure Carl felt a some guilt by the end of Landy's time. And for the first few years, maybe the band thought that there was hope for Brian. The episode with Carolyn seems like Brian was rushed away and then giving a scripted statement to read to the press about wanting to sell the house and get rid of her.
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Joel Goldenberg
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« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2020, 04:44:26 PM »

The second time I met Brian was at Tower Sunset. He was out of it. Carolyn was with him. He was slowly making his way through the store, his eyes fixed on the promotional mobiles hanging from the ceiling. I walked up to them and reintroduced myself to him. He did not look down, he did not say anything, he just held out his hand. Sad day.
That second to last sentence is exactly the way he was when I met Brian outside Rockefeller Center in late July 2001.
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smokeythebear
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« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2020, 05:09:17 AM »

I resent the adult child approach that most people seem to have about Brian. There is always an external force that needs to save Brian from himself, girlfriend or doctor, or brother or what have you.

Ever think maybe Brian made his own decisions eating unhealthy, doing drugs, etc. Shouldn't that be his decision to make, weren't they conscious decisions?

Following years of that unhealthy lifestyle, a door opened to a healthier life in Hawaii, Brian decided to pursue that.
He could have told everyone to go to hell and become a street person. He knew inside that living that lifestyle was no long term way to live life, he needed to learn how to cope with depression and auditory hallucinations long term, Landy was his ticket out.

The more I read about Brian I get the sense about a person who gets his way in the end, but the means to get there never involves any form of confrontation more passive-aggressive behavior, think about it.

1. Band does not want to do the album. Brian hands over the keys to the studio to the band until they beg him to produce. Going as far as doing public campaigns
saying he is back, he keeps the album on the shelves for 40 years and then records it with a band that worships him.
2. Bad relationship with over-controlling Marylin. Brian goes into drug stupors until Marilyn ends the relationship.
3. Grow tired of doctor/patient relationship. Brian binge on meds and does incoherent interviews causing the family and state to end the relationship.
4. Grows tired of interviews. Brian memorizes standard answers and reverts to just yes/no if the answers are not in the current repertoire.

Brian is a living display of passive-aggressive control, so think long and hard before thinking that everyone controls Brian it
could very well be the other way around Wink

Anyways end of rant.

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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2020, 12:22:47 PM »

I resent the adult child approach that most people seem to have about Brian. There is always an external force that needs to save Brian from himself, girlfriend or doctor, or brother or what have you.

Ever think maybe Brian made his own decisions eating unhealthy, doing drugs, etc. Shouldn't that be his decision to make, weren't they conscious decisions?

Following years of that unhealthy lifestyle, a door opened to a healthier life in Hawaii, Brian decided to pursue that.
He could have told everyone to go to hell and become a street person. He knew inside that living that lifestyle was no long term way to live life, he needed to learn how to cope with depression and auditory hallucinations long term, Landy was his ticket out.

The more I read about Brian I get the sense about a person who gets his way in the end, but the means to get there never involves any form of confrontation more passive-aggressive behavior, think about it.

1. Band does not want to do the album. Brian hands over the keys to the studio to the band until they beg him to produce. Going as far as doing public campaigns
saying he is back, he keeps the album on the shelves for 40 years and then records it with a band that worships him.
2. Bad relationship with over-controlling Marylin. Brian goes into drug stupors until Marilyn ends the relationship.
3. Grow tired of doctor/patient relationship. Brian binge on meds and does incoherent interviews causing the family and state to end the relationship.
4. Grows tired of interviews. Brian memorizes standard answers and reverts to just yes/no if the answers are not in the current repertoire.

Brian is a living display of passive-aggressive control, so think long and hard before thinking that everyone controls Brian it
could very well be the other way around Wink

Anyways end of rant.


I certainly can't rule it out.
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JakeH
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« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2020, 12:52:57 PM »


Brian is a living display of passive-aggressive control, so think long and hard before thinking that everyone controls Brian it
could very well be the other way around Wink


What you're looking at is not Brian's Machiavellian scheme of human control, but a survival mechanism - an unhealthy and self-defeating one in the long run, but a survival mechanism just the same. And it wasn't something he made a conscious decision to adopt, or not adopt, at will.   I doubt that I, or anybody else reading this, could do better than he did under similar circumstances.  Dennis certainly didn't, neither did Carl.
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« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2020, 01:53:07 PM »

I resent the adult child approach that most people seem to have about Brian. There is always an external force that needs to save Brian from himself, girlfriend or doctor, or brother or what have you.

Ever think maybe Brian made his own decisions eating unhealthy, doing drugs, etc. Shouldn't that be his decision to make, weren't they conscious decisions?

Following years of that unhealthy lifestyle, a door opened to a healthier life in Hawaii, Brian decided to pursue that.
He could have told everyone to go to hell and become a street person. He knew inside that living that lifestyle was no long term way to live life, he needed to learn how to cope with depression and auditory hallucinations long term, Landy was his ticket out.

The more I read about Brian I get the sense about a person who gets his way in the end, but the means to get there never involves any form of confrontation more passive-aggressive behavior, think about it.

1. Band does not want to do the album. Brian hands over the keys to the studio to the band until they beg him to produce. Going as far as doing public campaigns
saying he is back, he keeps the album on the shelves for 40 years and then records it with a band that worships him.
2. Bad relationship with over-controlling Marylin. Brian goes into drug stupors until Marilyn ends the relationship.
3. Grow tired of doctor/patient relationship. Brian binge on meds and does incoherent interviews causing the family and state to end the relationship.
4. Grows tired of interviews. Brian memorizes standard answers and reverts to just yes/no if the answers are not in the current repertoire.

Brian is a living display of passive-aggressive control, so think long and hard before thinking that everyone controls Brian it
could very well be the other way around Wink

Anyways end of rant.



#3....Brian didn稚 chose to binge on meds. He had no choice in the matter; for those who were around at the time, things were actually *worse* than shown in Love and Mercy,
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smokeythebear
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« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2020, 07:16:52 AM »

I resent the adult child approach that most people seem to have about Brian. There is always an external force that needs to save Brian from himself, girlfriend or doctor, or brother or what have you.

Ever think maybe Brian made his own decisions eating unhealthy, doing drugs, etc. Shouldn't that be his decision to make, weren't they conscious decisions?

Following years of that unhealthy lifestyle, a door opened to a healthier life in Hawaii, Brian decided to pursue that.
He could have told everyone to go to hell and become a street person. He knew inside that living that lifestyle was no long term way to live life, he needed to learn how to cope with depression and auditory hallucinations long term, Landy was his ticket out.

The more I read about Brian I get the sense about a person who gets his way in the end, but the means to get there never involves any form of confrontation more passive-aggressive behavior, think about it.

1. Band does not want to do the album. Brian hands over the keys to the studio to the band until they beg him to produce. Going as far as doing public campaigns
saying he is back, he keeps the album on the shelves for 40 years and then records it with a band that worships him.
2. Bad relationship with over-controlling Marylin. Brian goes into drug stupors until Marilyn ends the relationship.
3. Grow tired of doctor/patient relationship. Brian binge on meds and does incoherent interviews causing the family and state to end the relationship.
4. Grows tired of interviews. Brian memorizes standard answers and reverts to just yes/no if the answers are not in the current repertoire.

Brian is a living display of passive-aggressive control, so think long and hard before thinking that everyone controls Brian it
could very well be the other way around Wink

Anyways end of rant.



#3....Brian didn稚 chose to binge on meds. He had no choice in the matter; for those who were around at the time, things were actually *worse* than shown in Love and Mercy,

As he had no choice in binging on Coke, DexAmp, Food, Hash, Shortening bread Wink
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DonnyL
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« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2020, 12:57:16 PM »

Brian was exhibiting self-destructive behavior after Landy left the first time. There were a series of people in his life keeping him away from that from time to time (Marilyn, Stan & Rocky, Carolyn Williams, etc.). Based on the little info we have from this period, I don't think it would be fair to blame Carolyn for the kinds of things that Brian had been doing prior to and during their relationship. For all we know, she helped to keep the bad behavior from getting worse, who knows? It's not like individuals can control others - with the exception of someone like Landy. Do we blame Shawn Love for Dennis' behavior?
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« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2020, 09:08:42 AM »

Brian is or was a manipulator, but I always viewed his manipulation more in the vain of him having Jack Rieley sing A Day in the Life of a Tree. Al (I believe it's Al) even mentions to Audree that he thought Brian was doing a put on when she mentioned the song Is It True What They Say About Dixie? But I'm not sure how Brian manipulated Marilyn and others in his life; the stuff beyond recording songs. I'm not sure Brian manipulated himself into getting back with Landy. Carolyn's account was Brian was furious when the guys said to him that he had to go back to Landy; arguing how much Landy was charging him the previous time. (Going from memory, didn't Brian actually hit Landy when he found out he was upping his monthly rate at the end of 1976?) My personal theory is that Brian had no say at all in going back to Landy and was taken to Hawaii against his will. I'm sure Brian was programmed by Landy to move on from Carolyn while receiving treatment out there. It may be hard to accept that Carl seemed to be 100% behind this hijacking of Brian, first to the hospital and then off to Hawaii. I'm not blaming Carl for Landy's treatment of Brian in the late 80s/early 90s, but he definitely was a catalyst for bringing Landy back into the fold during the last 6 months of 1982. Does Carl and the management deserve any blame for what happened to Carolyn though? Possibly; it does seem like the group and management wanted her gone in addition to Brian going back to Landy. Essentially, Carolyn, who was a close part of his life for 3 years, has been reduced to a footnote, if that, in the story of Brian Wilson.

Another random question to add:

When did his family/friends/the other guys know that Brian suffered auditory hallucinations? I don't recall seeing it mentioned at all during the Brian's Back campaign. It seems like it started to come out to the press near the end of Landy's time; maybe around the fake autobiography. Was this the first time the general public was aware of Brian's struggles with auditory hallucinations?

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juggler
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« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2020, 02:02:48 PM »

When did his family/friends/the other guys know that Brian suffered auditory hallucinations? I don't recall seeing it mentioned at all during the Brian's Back campaign. It seems like it started to come out to the press near the end of Landy's time; maybe around the fake autobiography. Was this the first time the general public was aware of Brian's struggles with auditory hallucinations?

If they didn't know already, they should have started cluing in around 1969 when Brian and Murry started dropping some hints about it...

"When I laid down on my bed, I heard voices in my head
Telling me now, hey, it's only a dream
The more I thought of it ,I had been out of it"
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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2020, 01:32:01 PM »

Brian has said that Murry wrote all the lyrics to Break Away. Could Brian be misremembering? Possibly. We do know that Murry had the habit of taking to bed like Brian when depressed, especially after being fired as their manager. The lyrics may mean nothing in regards to auditory hallucinations. Perhaps Murry suffered from those too? I doubt it, since no other evidence has been presented outside of those lyrics, but we never can know for certain.
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juggler
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2020, 12:44:07 AM »

From Jules Siegel's piece (1967)...

滴ey man, this is really terrible, said Vosse, smiling under a broad-brimmed straw hat. 的t痴 not you, it痴 your chick. Brian says she痴 a witch and she痴 messing with his brain so bad by ESP that he can稚 work. It痴 like the Spector thing. You know how he is. Say, I知 really sorry.

How was something like that interpreted by the BBs at the time?  Brian's an eccentric?  Brian has smoked too much hash?

It's hard to know when they realized or suspected that something was seriously wrong in the way of auditory hallucinations, but it's not as if there weren't some pretty big elephants in the room.
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RONDEMON
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« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2020, 08:54:16 AM »

Excessive weed or hash usage can definitely cause auditory hallucinations or psychiatric breaks in human beings especially young adults. I have a feeling that this is what caused Brian's early mental health issues given that he was very prone to addictive behavior.
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juggler
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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2020, 05:12:20 PM »

Excessive weed or hash usage can definitely cause auditory hallucinations or psychiatric breaks in human beings especially young adults. I have a feeling that this is what caused Brian's early mental health issues given that he was very prone to addictive behavior.

It's hard to do an armchair diagnosis of someone.   But, just in general terms, yes, overdoing it with THC can cause psychosis in some people. There's medical literature on that, and sadly, I personally know people that this has happened to.  And that's why the stories/rumors about Landy "rewarding" Brian with joints in the '80s are especially disturbing because it may have been aggravating Brian's mental situation... on top of the smorgasbord of psychotropic drugs he was also pumping into BW.
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