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Author Topic: Why are BB albums so short?  (Read 4097 times)
The Nearest Faraway Place
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« on: May 12, 2020, 03:59:59 PM »

Iíve always wondered this. Obviously the time limit of vinyl is short, most LPs max at between 20 and 24 minutes a side. But thats the thing. Most BB albums are extremely short. Especially the albums between Surfin' Safari and Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!). Excluding the 1964 concert LP, none of these even reach 30 minutes. Hell, some donít even reach 25 minutes. But the question is, why? The albums from several of the BBs fellow artists around the same time were much longer. Some pushing it over 40 minutes, but the BBs are all still barely 12 minutes a side. Why?
Which leads me to this question, why did this trend continue on.
We know that several of their early 70s albums have tons and tons of outtakes, but the albums are still so short. Surfs up isnít even 34 minutes, but Dennis canít even get a track.
Holland had one of its songs booted off to make way for another, but the albums only 9 tracks and 35 minutes.
The late 70s are weirder, KTSA was only 32 minutes.
And there is historical evidence that there was huge arguments on what songs would make the final cut of an album, when really these arguments shouldnít have taken place, because all these albums are way shorter than necessary.
They didnít release an album that passed the 40 minute mark until 1979, and didnít do it again until 1992.
Was there some kind of stipulation in the contract that said they couldnít release an album that exceeded a certain amount of time?
I donít know, it just seems so weird to me that they have so many unreleased tracks, but then you look at their albums and theyíre all barely 30 minutes, and itís like, well no wonder. Even their big 15 year 15 song album doesnít reach 40 minutes
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DonnyL
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 05:22:58 PM »

I think I can offer some insight here.

1. Artistic reasons. Just because you can fit more music on a record doesnít mean it will work. Iíve personally released a record that was 10 songs at about 24 minutes, even though there were two additional completed songs that I liked more than some of the songs that were included. The reason was I simply could not get them to sit right in the sequence and they just didnít feel right or hang together with the group. It could be there is a sameness or too many songs in a particular key, with a certain kind of tempo etc, and theyíre choosing the ones that work best in the sequence.

2. Regarding the early LPs - 12 tracks were their standard, and BB tracks were quite short On average (ďLittle Deuce CoupeĒ is 1.5 minutes!). There is no incentive for a record company to include more tracks than they need to in order to move units (quite the opposite).

3. Regarding the Reprise era - while itís true you can fit up to 45 mins comfortably on a record, quality is better if you can keep it under 30. To me, there seems to be a conscious effort for this era records to run around 35 minutes.

I think Mt Vernon & Fairway being a separate disc from Holland sort of confirms points 1 and 3.

One manís opinion.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 05:29:24 PM by DonnyL » Logged

phirnis
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2020, 08:49:37 PM »

I think they're all the better for being so short. Today! isn't even 30 minutes long but it's an incredibly strong record. Same goes for All Summer Long, Friends, or Wild Honey, the list goes on. Also love how short some of their very best songs are, like Little Deuce Coupe which was already mentioned in the post before. It always leaves me wanting more! To pick another example, there's so much happening in This Whole World and then it's not even 2 minutes long. That is true brilliance!
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2020, 10:28:04 PM »

The point about song length is also relevant. Brian was writing tight songs in the early years, and ones that didn't feature any extended instrumental solos. If your songs are 2:10 to 2:20 (aiming for the early 60s' ideal "hit single" length), and you write 10 songs (or have your record company only release 10 tracks and stockpile 2-4 others for inclusion on the next LP) you'll have a short LP.

Which brings up Capitol's greed. They infamously carved up the Beatles' EMI LPs to create "extra" US LPs to pad their coffers, and they pushed Brian to write and record songs in 63-64 to get as many LPs as possible out of their "cash cow." 3-4 LPs a year seems to have been the goal; remember that BEACH BOYS PARTY was concocted to give Brian more time to work on PET SOUNDS, which took ten whole months (!!) to follow up SUMMER DAYS (AND SUMMER NIGHTS).

I think Donny has it right with LPs in the Steve Desper era--with more sophisticated recording techniques evolving, there was an emerging audiophile mentality that argued for LPs of moderate length (no more than 15-16 minutes per side). Those types of considerations remained baked into people's brains until CDs changed that landscape in the early-mid 80s; remember that KTSA is right at the tail end of the initial LP era, so it's following the established rules in place at the time.
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2020, 01:01:37 PM »

The point about song length is also relevant. Brian was writing tight songs in the early years, and ones that didn't feature any extended instrumental solos. If your songs are 2:10 to 2:20 (aiming for the early 60s' ideal "hit single" length), and you write 10 songs (or have your record company only release 10 tracks and stockpile 2-4 others for inclusion on the next LP) you'll have a short LP.

Which brings up Capitol's greed. They infamously carved up the Beatles' EMI LPs to create "extra" US LPs to pad their coffers, and they pushed Brian to write and record songs in 63-64 to get as many LPs as possible out of their "cash cow." 3-4 LPs a year seems to have been the goal; remember that BEACH BOYS PARTY was concocted to give Brian more time to work on PET SOUNDS, which took ten whole months (!!) to follow up SUMMER DAYS (AND SUMMER NIGHTS).

I think Donny has it right with LPs in the Steve Desper era--with more sophisticated recording techniques evolving, there was an emerging audiophile mentality that argued for LPs of moderate length (no more than 15-16 minutes per side). Those types of considerations remained baked into people's brains until CDs changed that landscape in the early-mid 80s; remember that KTSA is right at the tail end of the initial LP era, so it's following the established rules in place at the time.
I would agree with you, except for the fact that LALight is 41 minutes. Also, this trend continued even after they started putting new albums on CD.
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2020, 01:15:27 PM »

I think I can offer some insight here.

1. Artistic reasons. Just because you can fit more music on a record doesnít mean it will work. Iíve personally released a record that was 10 songs at about 24 minutes, even though there were two additional completed songs that I liked more than some of the songs that were included. The reason was I simply could not get them to sit right in the sequence and they just didnít feel right or hang together with the group. It could be there is a sameness or too many songs in a particular key, with a certain kind of tempo etc, and theyíre choosing the ones that work best in the sequence.

2. Regarding the early LPs - 12 tracks were their standard, and BB tracks were quite short On average (ďLittle Deuce CoupeĒ is 1.5 minutes!). There is no incentive for a record company to include more tracks than they need to in order to move units (quite the opposite).

3. Regarding the Reprise era - while itís true you can fit up to 45 mins comfortably on a record, quality is better if you can keep it under 30. To me, there seems to be a conscious effort for this era records to run around 35 minutes.

I think Mt Vernon & Fairway being a separate disc from Holland sort of confirms points 1 and 3.

One manís opinion.
The reason that it was a separate EP was because the rest of the band thought of it as a completely separate product. They also considered releasing it on its own, but compromised by packaging it with the LP. Originally, Brian wanted the entire Holland album to be centered around that fairytale, but everyone else had other ideas like California Saga and The trader that just didnít fit with that idea. Also, this goes without saying, but the majority of the band hated it.
But it was probably just the record company being completely greedy to be honest. 
Nowadays itís actually the opposite, the more tracks that are on an album, the more the record company makes. Because streams of a song go towards album sales, an album that has 12 tracks makes them way less money than if that same album has 20 or 24 tracks. thatís why you see so many new artists releasing new albums that are like 1 1/2 hours long.
As for songs fitting on the album, during the early 60s I think that might be kind of true, but I think it also might be just because they didnít have a lot of material. As you said, they were being demanded an album every three months or so, and thatís why the 1963-65 have a lot of filler instrumentals and random skits and stuff like that just thrown on there.
Also, when it comes to them deciding what tracks to put on the album, I donít think there was much artistic intent with the running order when it comes to albums like CATP and MIU. Example: the two Dennis tracks that are just shoehorned into the B-side of CATP. On their own, theyíre great songs, but they donít fit into the album, so itís very jarring.
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2020, 02:14:02 PM »

There was a time in the cd era where I thought it was great that artists could put out longer albums, but I have changed my mind. There were very few times when longer meant better. I love the Kinks Phobia album from 93, which clocks in at something like 70 minutes; and I love all 70 minutes of it. Generally, though, I prefer short, concise statements. How long was Meet the Beatles? I had Here's Little Richard on last night, and that clocked in easily under 30 minutes.
Quality, not quantity. People are busy, we don't have endless hours to sit and listen to music.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2020, 03:46:57 PM »

The point about song length is also relevant. Brian was writing tight songs in the early years, and ones that didn't feature any extended instrumental solos. If your songs are 2:10 to 2:20 (aiming for the early 60s' ideal "hit single" length), and you write 10 songs (or have your record company only release 10 tracks and stockpile 2-4 others for inclusion on the next LP) you'll have a short LP.

Which brings up Capitol's greed. They infamously carved up the Beatles' EMI LPs to create "extra" US LPs to pad their coffers, and they pushed Brian to write and record songs in 63-64 to get as many LPs as possible out of their "cash cow." 3-4 LPs a year seems to have been the goal; remember that BEACH BOYS PARTY was concocted to give Brian more time to work on PET SOUNDS, which took ten whole months (!!) to follow up SUMMER DAYS (AND SUMMER NIGHTS).

I think Donny has it right with LPs in the Steve Desper era--with more sophisticated recording techniques evolving, there was an emerging audiophile mentality that argued for LPs of moderate length (no more than 15-16 minutes per side). Those types of considerations remained baked into people's brains until CDs changed that landscape in the early-mid 80s; remember that KTSA is right at the tail end of the initial LP era, so it's following the established rules in place at the time.
I would agree with you, except for the fact that LALight is 41 minutes. Also, this trend continued even after they started putting new albums on CD.

This is soley due to the disco track IMO. '70s BB albums are all "around 35 mins", give or take. Some closer to 30, some closer to 40. This is more consistent than the number of songs (8 on So Tough vs 15 on 15 Big Ones). This is different from a lot of artists of the era, whose average might be something like 45 mins.

Maybe Stephen Desper can chime in. I would bet money that getting the best sound quality on vinyl was a factor in these decisions - particularly if Carl and Desper were guiding them.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2020, 03:48:56 PM »


The reason that it was a separate EP was because the rest of the band thought of it as a completely separate product. They also considered releasing it on its own, but compromised by packaging it with the LP. Originally, Brian wanted the entire Holland album to be centered around that fairytale, but everyone else had other ideas like California Saga and The trader that just didnít fit with that idea. Also, this goes without saying, but the majority of the band hated it.


But isn't that what makes an album? Vs just throwing a collection of recently-recorded tracks that can fit on the disc? Concept, continuity, vibe, tempo, tone, etc ...

Main point is Mt Vernon technically could have fit on the main Holland disc if they wanted to do that. The likely reasons they didn't were because of concept/continuity/artistic preference, and consideration for sound quality.

Squeezing 13 minutes on a 7-inch includes significant compromises too, but as this is largely spoken word w/ quiet musical passages, it sounds pretty good. You'll notice it was cut at a lower volume than the main Holland record. Presumably, these decisions were factored into how it would be presented (you don't press a 7 inch at 33 RPM without considering the pros/cons and practical considerations of 33 vs 45 vs. 10" vs. 12" etc.). The idea of Mt Vernon being on the main record might have been considered at some point.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 04:22:08 PM by DonnyL » Logged

The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2020, 10:27:17 AM »


The reason that it was a separate EP was because the rest of the band thought of it as a completely separate product. They also considered releasing it on its own, but compromised by packaging it with the LP. Originally, Brian wanted the entire Holland album to be centered around that fairytale, but everyone else had other ideas like California Saga and The trader that just didnít fit with that idea. Also, this goes without saying, but the majority of the band hated it.


But isn't that what makes an album? Vs just throwing a collection of recently-recorded tracks that can fit on the disc? Concept, continuity, vibe, tempo, tone, etc ...

Main point is Mt Vernon technically could have fit on the main Holland disc if they wanted to do that. The likely reasons they didn't were because of concept/continuity/artistic preference, and consideration for sound quality.

Squeezing 13 minutes on a 7-inch includes significant compromises too, but as this is largely spoken word w/ quiet musical passages, it sounds pretty good. You'll notice it was cut at a lower volume than the main Holland record. Presumably, these decisions were factored into how it would be presented (you don't press a 7 inch at 33 RPM without considering the pros/cons and practical considerations of 33 vs 45 vs. 10" vs. 12" etc.). The idea of Mt Vernon being on the main record might have been considered at some point.
You clearly donít understand what I meant when I said that they booted tracks off of Holland. Originally, the first side started with Steamboat and ended with a track named We Got Love.
However, when the label added Sail On, Sailor to the LP, We Got Love was completely scrapped. itís weird too, because the band are clearly fond of it that song, they performed it live and included it on the live73 album. also, it was completely possible for We Got Love to make the final cut, and be placed somewhere on the LP. This is clearly some type of label politics that forced them to keep that album to 9 tracks.
Also, most people donít know this, but We Got Love was officially released in 2015. Itís an iTunes and Apple Music exclusive bonus track.
As for Mt. Vernon and Fairway, my understanding is that Brian wanted to make the entire LP Center around this theme or idea. And all the songs would be interconnected with the Mt. Vernon and Fairway story. However, The other members of the band were not a fan of this idea at all. They all already had their own songs that made up the Holland album. Brian was obviously upset by this, but Carl helped him finish the Version that we know.
And as a compromise, they decided to include Mt. Vernon and Fairway along with the standard LP as a bonus.
So technically, Holland and Mt. Vernon and Fairway are two completely different things. They have nothing to do with each other in the state that theyíre in now. The only thing that keeps these two things together is that they were both packaged together, and they were recorded around the same time.
Obviously, now days they are thought of as basically the same entity because on CD and download releases of Holland, Mt. Vernon and Fairway is literally listed as part of the album. Itís listed as tracks 10 through 15, and it starts playing directly after Funky Pretty. This has always annoyed me, because the two products are just that. Two products. Theyíre not the same album. The least they couldíve did is put a minute or two of silence between Funky Pretty and Mt. Vernon and Fairway (Theme), or even put Mt. Vernon and Fairway on a separate disk, but nope. Itís stuffed on the same disk, and labeled as the same album.
I know this is kind of an unpopular opinion, but the most recent releases of the BBs Core studio albums are a bit of a mess.
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2020, 10:51:24 AM »

Except that on the back cover of the Holland album Brian is listed as composer of Mount Vernon and Fairway in the same format as all of the other songs, and the disk itself is labelled 'side three' and 'side four'. They clearly weren't thought of as separate products at the time.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2020, 01:12:28 PM »


The reason that it was a separate EP was because the rest of the band thought of it as a completely separate product. They also considered releasing it on its own, but compromised by packaging it with the LP. Originally, Brian wanted the entire Holland album to be centered around that fairytale, but everyone else had other ideas like California Saga and The trader that just didnít fit with that idea. Also, this goes without saying, but the majority of the band hated it.


But isn't that what makes an album? Vs just throwing a collection of recently-recorded tracks that can fit on the disc? Concept, continuity, vibe, tempo, tone, etc ...

Main point is Mt Vernon technically could have fit on the main Holland disc if they wanted to do that. The likely reasons they didn't were because of concept/continuity/artistic preference, and consideration for sound quality.

Squeezing 13 minutes on a 7-inch includes significant compromises too, but as this is largely spoken word w/ quiet musical passages, it sounds pretty good. You'll notice it was cut at a lower volume than the main Holland record. Presumably, these decisions were factored into how it would be presented (you don't press a 7 inch at 33 RPM without considering the pros/cons and practical considerations of 33 vs 45 vs. 10" vs. 12" etc.). The idea of Mt Vernon being on the main record might have been considered at some point.
You clearly donít understand what I meant when I said that they booted tracks off of Holland. Originally, the first side started with Steamboat and ended with a track named We Got Love.
However, when the label added Sail On, Sailor to the LP, We Got Love was completely scrapped. itís weird too, because the band are clearly fond of it that song, they performed it live and included it on the live73 album. also, it was completely possible for We Got Love to make the final cut, and be placed somewhere on the LP. This is clearly some type of label politics that forced them to keep that album to 9 tracks.
Also, most people donít know this, but We Got Love was officially released in 2015. Itís an iTunes and Apple Music exclusive bonus track.
As for Mt. Vernon and Fairway, my understanding is that Brian wanted to make the entire LP Center around this theme or idea. And all the songs would be interconnected with the Mt. Vernon and Fairway story. However, The other members of the band were not a fan of this idea at all. They all already had their own songs that made up the Holland album. Brian was obviously upset by this, but Carl helped him finish the Version that we know.
And as a compromise, they decided to include Mt. Vernon and Fairway along with the standard LP as a bonus.
So technically, Holland and Mt. Vernon and Fairway are two completely different things. They have nothing to do with each other in the state that theyíre in now. The only thing that keeps these two things together is that they were both packaged together, and they were recorded around the same time.
Obviously, now days they are thought of as basically the same entity because on CD and download releases of Holland, Mt. Vernon and Fairway is literally listed as part of the album. Itís listed as tracks 10 through 15, and it starts playing directly after Funky Pretty. This has always annoyed me, because the two products are just that. Two products. Theyíre not the same album. The least they couldíve did is put a minute or two of silence between Funky Pretty and Mt. Vernon and Fairway (Theme), or even put Mt. Vernon and Fairway on a separate disk, but nope. Itís stuffed on the same disk, and labeled as the same album.
I know this is kind of an unpopular opinion, but the most recent releases of the BBs Core studio albums are a bit of a mess.

I'm well-familiarized w/ the history -- your question was why are the albums so short. The reasons are IMO as I stated in my initial post, and they are different depending on the era.

Obviously label politics will play into it, but I do not believe Reprise's issue with the record had anything to do w/ "We Got Love". If Reprise disliked the song, why would they allow it on In Concert later in the year? IMO it was simply a matter of none of the initial tracks being good candidates for a single. "Sail On Sailor" solved that problem. The group removed "We Got Love" for whatever artistic reasons they had ... why -- most likely continuity, keeping the sound quality standard high on the vinyl format, and possibly group politics.

Take a look at this:

http://www.rainborecords.com/mastering.htm

Optimum time for sound quality on a 33 1/3 LP is 17 mins per side (34 minutes total). BB records of the '70s tend to fall around this mark, give or take. Also keep in mind, it's not the total time but *time per side*. "We Got Love is a 5 min track. Side 1 of Holland runs about 19 mins. Keeping "We Got Love" and adding "Sail on Sailor" would bring that to 24 for Side 1, or 23 for Side 2 (give or take). This also creates an imbalance in running time between sides 1 and 2, and/or re-sequencing to accommodate.

Though I disagree Holland and Mt Vernon are separate products, my main point is you are essentially supporting what I am referring to w/ regard to "artistic reasons". Unless you are introducing the concept of group politics as a primary factor, which I agree was a factor for sure. I'd personally say something like LA (Light Album) is more representative of a "political" sequence ... Holland feels to me like someone (probably Carl) was kind of keeping the artistic continuity in place more so than political considerations. We know Carl and Dennis had an argument about the sequence of the Surf's Up LP, which caused Dennis to pull his tracks. This seems to be me to be an example of an artistic consideration ... and also suggests Carl was the one overseeing the sequence more than others IMO.

To summarize my opinions on why the albums are "short" -

1- Artistic reasons (could include "political" here, though I don't think this is as applicable in most cases) - all eras
2- 1962-1965: 12 song standard w/ short songs
3- 1966-1969: Artistic preference
4- 1970-1980: Keeping around 35-min mark for optimum vinyl sound quality

I think it's that simple personally - does not seem mysterious or questionable to me.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 01:23:32 PM by DonnyL » Logged

DonnyL
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2020, 01:15:29 PM »

Except that on the back cover of the Holland album Brian is listed as composer of Mount Vernon and Fairway in the same format as all of the other songs, and the disk itself is labelled 'side three' and 'side four'. They clearly weren't thought of as separate products at the time.

The original vinyl release also says "This *ALBUM* includes one 12-inch and one 7-inch 33 1/3 RPM disc, or one and one-half long playing records". I think it's pretty clear Mt Vernon is a "suite" that is part of Holland.
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2020, 03:00:30 PM »

Except that on the back cover of the Holland album Brian is listed as composer of Mount Vernon and Fairway in the same format as all of the other songs, and the disk itself is labelled 'side three' and 'side four'. They clearly weren't thought of as separate products at the time.

The original vinyl release also says "This *ALBUM* includes one 12-inch and one 7-inch 33 1/3 RPM disc, or one and one-half long playing records". I think it's pretty clear Mt Vernon is a "suite" that is part of Holland.
Sorry, but youíre wrong. The only reason that it was included with the album was specifically to please Brian. The rest of the band weíre not a fan of it at all, and if they had it their way, it would not be anywhere close to this album. they even considered releasing it on its own, but obviously they didnít have enough funding to put out two products with two different marketing strategies, one of them just 13 minutes. Therefore, they were just slap together. Like I said, while the recording of the two projects did overlapped, this project had nothing to do with the actual album.
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2020, 03:05:14 PM »

Except that on the back cover of the Holland album Brian is listed as composer of Mount Vernon and Fairway in the same format as all of the other songs, and the disk itself is labelled 'side three' and 'side four'. They clearly weren't thought of as separate products at the time.

The original vinyl release also says "This *ALBUM* includes one 12-inch and one 7-inch 33 1/3 RPM disc, or one and one-half long playing records". I think it's pretty clear Mt Vernon is a "suite" that is part of Holland.
Sorry, but youíre wrong. The only reason that it was included with the album was specifically to please Brian. The rest of the band weíre not a fan of it at all, and if they had it their way, it would not be anywhere close to this album. they even considered releasing it on its own, but obviously they didnít have enough funding to put out two products with two different marketing strategies, one of them just 13 minutes. Therefore, they were just slap together. Like I said, while the recording of the two projects did overlapped, this project had nothing to do with the actual album.

Do you have an actual source for that...? The others may have felt weird about it at first (Jack Rieley admitted as such) but they had to beg Brian to even finish it, which he didn't in the end, and Jack improvised the last minute. I've seen no public comments from any of the group backing up what you're saying beyond speculation by biographers. The real issue seems to have been the length, and if anything it's a major testament to the group wanting it there that they came up with the EP solution rather than turning it down entirely. Nothing to do with disliking the piece. But it is, quite literally according to the Holland packaging, considered part of Holland.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 03:17:43 PM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2020, 03:06:44 PM »

Except that on the back cover of the Holland album Brian is listed as composer of Mount Vernon and Fairway in the same format as all of the other songs, and the disk itself is labelled 'side three' and 'side four'. They clearly weren't thought of as separate products at the time.

The original vinyl release also says "This *ALBUM* includes one 12-inch and one 7-inch 33 1/3 RPM disc, or one and one-half long playing records". I think it's pretty clear Mt Vernon is a "suite" that is part of Holland.
Sorry, but youíre wrong. The only reason that it was included with the album was specifically to please Brian. The rest of the band weíre not a fan of it at all, and if they had it their way, it would not be anywhere close to this album. they even considered releasing it on its own, but obviously they didnít have enough funding to put out two products with two different marketing strategies, one of them just 13 minutes. Therefore, they were just slap together. Like I said, while the recording of the two projects did overlapped, this project had nothing to do with the actual album.

Are there some direct quotes or contemporary reporting on the rest of the band not liking Mt. Vernon?

And regardless, I don't quite understand the conflict here?  The suite can simultaneously be part of the Holland record while still being there for certain complicated reasons borne out of compromise?
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2020, 06:04:33 PM »

Except that on the back cover of the Holland album Brian is listed as composer of Mount Vernon and Fairway in the same format as all of the other songs, and the disk itself is labelled 'side three' and 'side four'. They clearly weren't thought of as separate products at the time.

The original vinyl release also says "This *ALBUM* includes one 12-inch and one 7-inch 33 1/3 RPM disc, or one and one-half long playing records". I think it's pretty clear Mt Vernon is a "suite" that is part of Holland.
Sorry, but youíre wrong. The only reason that it was included with the album was specifically to please Brian. The rest of the band weíre not a fan of it at all, and if they had it their way, it would not be anywhere close to this album. they even considered releasing it on its own, but obviously they didnít have enough funding to put out two products with two different marketing strategies, one of them just 13 minutes. Therefore, they were just slap together. Like I said, while the recording of the two projects did overlapped, this project had nothing to do with the actual album.

Yeh I guess I donít really understand where youíre getting this info from.

Mt Vernon had  everything to do with Holland - it was Brianís main contribution to the project, and he wrote it while in Holland. Also, Carl was obviously heavily involved in the creation of Mt Vernon, and the entire group sings on it.

Also agree w Joshilyn that Iím not quite sure what weíre debating. I donít personally believe the group hated  it and only included  it to please Brian ... Iím open to that angle but it doesnít change the main points I made initially regarding album length. Again, one manís opinion.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2020, 06:19:50 PM »

Anyway, since Brian himself considers it part of the Holland album, thatís good enough for me:

"I kind of like The Beach Boys Love You, 15 Big Ones, and Holland," he notes. "Those are the three albums I think were the best."

Although 1973's Holland received solid reviews and went Top 40, recording the album in Holland nearly bankrupted the band.

"I can't tell you exactly why I like Holland so much, but I think the fairy tale made the whole album for me," says Wilson, referring to "Mt. Vernon & Fairway," the autobiographical fairy tale that came with Holland on a 7-inch EP. "That was a great fairy tale."

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2000-07-21/77984/
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2020, 12:00:17 PM »

Anyway, since Brian himself considers it part of the Holland album, thatís good enough for me:

"I kind of like The Beach Boys Love You, 15 Big Ones, and Holland," he notes. "Those are the three albums I think were the best."

Although 1973's Holland received solid reviews and went Top 40, recording the album in Holland nearly bankrupted the band.

"I can't tell you exactly why I like Holland so much, but I think the fairy tale made the whole album for me," says Wilson, referring to "Mt. Vernon & Fairway," the autobiographical fairy tale that came with Holland on a 7-inch EP. "That was a great fairy tale."

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2000-07-21/77984/
Brian likes 15 Big Ones. Interesting, seeing as in 1976 he gave several interviews saying that it wasnít that great.
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2020, 05:56:29 PM »

Anyway, since Brian himself considers it part of the Holland album, thatís good enough for me:

"I kind of like The Beach Boys Love You, 15 Big Ones, and Holland," he notes. "Those are the three albums I think were the best."

Although 1973's Holland received solid reviews and went Top 40, recording the album in Holland nearly bankrupted the band.

"I can't tell you exactly why I like Holland so much, but I think the fairy tale made the whole album for me," says Wilson, referring to "Mt. Vernon & Fairway," the autobiographical fairy tale that came with Holland on a 7-inch EP. "That was a great fairy tale."

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2000-07-21/77984/
Brian likes 15 Big Ones. Interesting, seeing as in 1976 he gave several interviews saying that it wasnít that great.

His answers change from year to year...or day to day.
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2020, 10:02:45 AM »

Anyway, since Brian himself considers it part of the Holland album, thatís good enough for me:

"I kind of like The Beach Boys Love You, 15 Big Ones, and Holland," he notes. "Those are the three albums I think were the best."

Although 1973's Holland received solid reviews and went Top 40, recording the album in Holland nearly bankrupted the band.

"I can't tell you exactly why I like Holland so much, but I think the fairy tale made the whole album for me," says Wilson, referring to "Mt. Vernon & Fairway," the autobiographical fairy tale that came with Holland on a 7-inch EP. "That was a great fairy tale."

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2000-07-21/77984/
Brian likes 15 Big Ones. Interesting, seeing as in 1976 he gave several interviews saying that it wasnít that great.

His answers change from year to year...or day to day.
If you ask him on the right day, heíll put SIP as the cream of the crop
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2020, 02:11:12 PM »

Anyway, since Brian himself considers it part of the Holland album, thatís good enough for me:

"I kind of like The Beach Boys Love You, 15 Big Ones, and Holland," he notes. "Those are the three albums I think were the best."

Although 1973's Holland received solid reviews and went Top 40, recording the album in Holland nearly bankrupted the band.

"I can't tell you exactly why I like Holland so much, but I think the fairy tale made the whole album for me," says Wilson, referring to "Mt. Vernon & Fairway," the autobiographical fairy tale that came with Holland on a 7-inch EP. "That was a great fairy tale."

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2000-07-21/77984/
Brian likes 15 Big Ones. Interesting, seeing as in 1976 he gave several interviews saying that it wasnít that great.

His answers change from year to year...or day to day.
If you ask him on the right day, heíll put SIP as the cream of the crop
I would love to see an interviewer as Mike about that "giant turkey of an album" (I believe those were his words for Brian's 1988 album).
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2020, 05:26:10 PM »

Anyway, since Brian himself considers it part of the Holland album, thatís good enough for me:

"I kind of like The Beach Boys Love You, 15 Big Ones, and Holland," he notes. "Those are the three albums I think were the best."

Although 1973's Holland received solid reviews and went Top 40, recording the album in Holland nearly bankrupted the band.

"I can't tell you exactly why I like Holland so much, but I think the fairy tale made the whole album for me," says Wilson, referring to "Mt. Vernon & Fairway," the autobiographical fairy tale that came with Holland on a 7-inch EP. "That was a great fairy tale."

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2000-07-21/77984/
Brian likes 15 Big Ones. Interesting, seeing as in 1976 he gave several interviews saying that it wasnít that great.

His answers change from year to year...or day to day.
If you ask him on the right day, heíll put SIP as the cream of the crop
I would love to see an interviewer as Mike about that "giant turkey of an album" (I believe those were his words for Brian's 1988 album).
2015, someone did ask Mike about it.
He refused to talk about the actual album, but he did mention that he loves the title track, and called it something like ďan anthem for the environment.Ē
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2020, 01:07:27 PM »

Anyway, since Brian himself considers it part of the Holland album, thatís good enough for me:

"I kind of like The Beach Boys Love You, 15 Big Ones, and Holland," he notes. "Those are the three albums I think were the best."

Although 1973's Holland received solid reviews and went Top 40, recording the album in Holland nearly bankrupted the band.

"I can't tell you exactly why I like Holland so much, but I think the fairy tale made the whole album for me," says Wilson, referring to "Mt. Vernon & Fairway," the autobiographical fairy tale that came with Holland on a 7-inch EP. "That was a great fairy tale."

https://www.austinchronicle.com/music/2000-07-21/77984/
Brian likes 15 Big Ones. Interesting, seeing as in 1976 he gave several interviews saying that it wasnít that great.

His answers change from year to year...or day to day.
If you ask him on the right day, heíll put SIP as the cream of the crop
I would love to see an interviewer as Mike about that "giant turkey of an album" (I believe those were his words for Brian's 1988 album).
2015, someone did ask Mike about it.
He refused to talk about the actual album, but he did mention that he loves the title track, and called it something like ďan anthem for the environment.Ē
so maybe he does recognize it as the colossal failure it was?
The title track is the one song from SIP that the guys continued to play long past the expiration date. It's not a bad song, really.....<can't believe i'm saying this> <gag>..the live version on the MIC is olay, despite the visions of Stamos and bikini-clad 18 year olds it conjures <gag>.
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juggler
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2020, 01:34:22 PM »

I think it was in his famous Crawdaddy interview that David Anderle said that Brian had recorded enough instrumental tracks for Smile for 2 or 3 albums.  And, by gosh, it was true.  And maybe that was a huge part of the problem, editing the whole thing down to his customary ~30 minutes.
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