Confusing question

[The Nearest Faraway Place]

So heres this...
https://youtu.be/VBdJYZ3i88k
First of all, Brian used to love this song. It was on The Beach Boys Classics... Selected By Brian Wilson.
But Brian’s opinions and thoughts change every 20 minutes, so thats not my question.
My question is does Brian really not remember that Jack Rieley and Van Dyke Parks wrote the lyrics? He says that he has no idea who wrote the lyrics, but the writers are listed.
Is this just another example of Brian BSing with an interviewer?

[WillJC]

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[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Van Dyke Parks didn't write the lyrics, except for the phrase in the chorus. These appear to be everyone's contribtions:

Brian wrote the verse and middle-eight music, Parks wrote the chorus and bridge music, and the chorus words/melody.

Ray Kennedy (and Tandyn Almer, according to Stan Shapiro) wrote the original set of lyrics later used in the KGB version.

Jack Rieley wrote the revised set of lyrics used in the Beach Boys version.

Given Brian's non-involvement in the final track, I wouldn't put it past him to have never actually bothered to ask where those new lyrics came from. Bit weird though.

People overestimate Brian's memory and intellectual involvement in anything outside himself.

[juggler]

VDP certainly claims credit for SOS far beyond just a chorus phrase.

From an old thread:

Van Dyke Parks on "Sail On, Sailor"
"This is my first public comment on the authorship of this song.

Once upon a time, Brian Wilson owned a house on Bellagio Drive in Bel Air, California, (built by Edgar Rice Burroughs). I visited him there one day, with a trusty Sony tape recorder in hand, hoped to resurrect an aborted attempt at commercially successful song collaboration. Let me back-track.

I was working at Warner Brothers' Records at the time, both in A&R and in my newly developed office of "Audio Visual Services". The CEO of the company was Mo Ostin, the Executive V.P., A&R was Lenny Waronker. My influence on Mr. Ostin is best shown by a corporate "org.chart" of that period, which shows that my only superior officer was Mr. Ostin himself. I'd pressured Mo to sign the beleaguered Beach Boys to the label, in spite of industry-wide reservations about the group's ability to deliver. When I went to Bellagio Drive to work on a song with Brian, the entire group was in Holland, working on a record aptly titled "Holland" for delivery to the label.

Mo and Lenny had held great expectations for that record. They suggested that my working with Brian might goad him to similar creative heights reached in "Smile". Mo and Lenny were astonished that Brian wasn't participating in the album effort, and feeling somewhat deceived, thought I should step forward, as I was in large part, the reason for their commitment to the group.

Having only gotten a partial song out of that one meeting with Brian, I put the tape away, and lay low. I wanted to avoid getting involved with the internecine group dilemmas once again.

"Holland" arrived at the Burbank offices, DOA. It was the consensus of everyone in A&R, Promotion, and distribution, that "Holland" was "unreleaseable". Knowing the company's enormous investment, and the high stakes involved, I got out the tape cassette from my session with Brian that evening on Bellagio Dr., gave it a listen, and delivered it to the company with my assurance that it would solve all their problems.

On the tape (I gave my only copy to David Berson, Mr. Ostin's assistant), it's clear from the contents that I authored the words (and the musical intervals to) "Sail On Sail On Sailor". It's also clear that I composed the chords to the bridge, played them, and taught them to Brian.

Ecstatic, Mr. Ostin immediately messengered this tape (or a copy of it) to Amsterdam, and the Beach Boys were instructed to slap words on the verses and deliver it, as a pre-condition for their album's release.

When the song was delivered back to WB, it was designated as the single for the album. My name appeared as co-author on that first issue copy, with Brian's. After Ray Kennedy's lawsuit (claiming authorship of the lyrics), my name and participation diminished, and in some ensuing cases, I've been given no royalties or credit at all.

I understand that there was a general "feeding frenzy" around the tune's lyrics, as the Beach Boys regrouped back in L.A. I have no idea how many people may have been at those final vocal sessions, now claiming additional credit. That's none of my business. All I can attest to is my seminal contribution to "Sail On Sailor", and the authorship of that famous chorus.

Repeated questions about my role in this composition compel me to respond, as "history is written by the victors". I've always believed that honesty is the best course, and I'll be doing all I can to pursue this matter soon, to a just conclusion. I hope that the attorneys' fees don't outweigh the royalties involved. What can I say--it's a town full of heroes and villains!"

-- Van Dyke Parks.


http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,4413.msg72255.html#msg72255

[WillJC]

.

[Fall Breaks]

Van Dyke Parks didn't write the lyrics, except for the phrase in the chorus. These appear to be everyone's contribtions:

Brian wrote the verse and middle-eight music, Parks wrote the chorus and bridge music, and the chorus words/melody.

Ray Kennedy (and Tandyn Almer, according to Stan Shapiro) wrote the original set of lyrics later used in the KGB version.

Jack Rieley wrote the revised set of lyrics used in the Beach Boys version.

Given Brian's non-involvement in the final track, I wouldn't put it past him to have never actually bothered to ask where those new lyrics came from. Bit weird though.

Which section is which? Would the middle eight be the "Caught like a sewer rat" section, and the bridge be the "Seldom stumbled" et c?

[Howie Edelson]

What Brian told me in 2005:

"Y'know what that song is? That song is a bunch of gibberish. That song is filled of lyrics that I don't like to sing. (Sings) 'Persevering, always fearing, never clearing, all my dying, all my sighing. . .' I mean, it's such a negative song. I don't like singing those lyrics at all."

[WillJC]

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[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

What Brian told me in 2005:

"Y'know what that song is? That song is a bunch of gibberish. That song is filled of lyrics that I don't like to sing. (Sings) 'Persevering, always fearing, never clearing, all my dying, all my sighing. . .' I mean, it's such a negative song. I don't like singing those lyrics at all."

I don’t know why but this cracked me up. Probably because he said he didn’t like singing them, then proceeded to sing them rather than speak them. That , and I read that in Brian’s voice

[Fall Breaks]

Van Dyke Parks didn't write the lyrics, except for the phrase in the chorus. These appear to be everyone's contribtions:

Brian wrote the verse and middle-eight music, Parks wrote the chorus and bridge music, and the chorus words/melody.

Ray Kennedy (and Tandyn Almer, according to Stan Shapiro) wrote the original set of lyrics later used in the KGB version.

Jack Rieley wrote the revised set of lyrics used in the Beach Boys version.

Given Brian's non-involvement in the final track, I wouldn't put it past him to have never actually bothered to ask where those new lyrics came from. Bit weird though.

Which section is which? Would the middle eight be the "Caught like a sewer rat" section, and the bridge be the "Seldom stumbled" et c?

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Thanks.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Odd ...the bridge sounds more like something Brian would write (specifically the syncopation)and the middle right more like Parks.

[phirnis]

One of my favorite Brian songs from past the 60s. That said I think I can see how it's not a lyric he can identify with. Also he probably felt like he'd been cheated. I actually like Ray Kennedy's lyrics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYBoYdc17Tw) but what ended up on Holland certainly sounds more professional. I find myself singing "Only a dreamer who came from nowhere" over the BB version from time to time. "Ray, there's a way" - that might actually be a Brian line. 

I'm probably mixing this up with another song, but wasn't there a story floating around about Brian sort of co-producing S.O.S. over the phone?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Same song ^. Not sure if it’s true or not though

[Don Malcolm]

I don't think Van Dyke's rendition of the sequence of events is particularly accurate, though I certainly don't dispute his claims re: a significant level of involvement in the original creation of SOS.

Stepping over the contretemps over who was singing the lead at any given moment, we have Steve Desper's recollection that SOS was worked up in 1971 (which, if he were going to have memories and artifacts related to it, would have to be the case, as he left the BBs employ at the end of the year). We are talking a recording session here, not just a songwriting demo (which is how VDP has consistently characterized his famous tape).

So VDP's session with Brian was NOT while the band was in Holland, but the year before...probably in the fall during a series of tours that the BBs made in support of SURF'S UP. Brian's subsequent work on the song would probably be just in front of the SO TOUGH sessions, which seem to suggest that Brian had gotten reactivated, particularly in tandem with Tandyn Almer. So a backing track of SOS appearing then, quite likely with a work lead from Carl, makes sense.

For some reason, though, the song didn't move forward from there, possibly due to that old "internecine" thing that got cranked up again (as in, no songs with leads for Mike). Tracks such as "He Come Down" and "All This Is That" would fill that gap as some kind of battle over what would make the cut for the lineup on SO TOUGH played out over the winter of 1971-72. At the end of that process, Bruce left the band and tracks from Blondie & Ricky got the nod for inclusion on SO TOUGH as the BBs went all in on the new band alignment. (Side note: could Bruce's "relocation" of the "Out in the Country" tape per Don Goldberg's memoir have led to a final pushback against "Ten Years Harmony" and been another initiating event for his departure?)

VDP tells a version of this story elsewhere where he's called in to hear the HOLLAND LP (figuring mid-October '72 after it's been mastered and submitted with "We Got Love" at the end of Side 1) after which he pulls out the famous tape. The way he's telling this story as conveyed in this thread is that the BBs were still in Holland, which is clearly impossible given that they'd returned to the USA in August. But such a time frame still permits plenty of "feeding frenzy" (though it's clearly not about counter claims regarding songwriting credits--or, at least, any such was peripheral to the uproar from the BBs that ensued when Reprise rejected the LP for not having a single...which, frankly, it didn't).

The big problem timing-wise had to do with the fact that the band was on another long tour in November '72. There are stories that indicate Brian started to work on the track again in this time frame, but those seem unlikely since there was no home studio at that point. Additional work on SOS finally happens at the tail end of November and the song comes out with four co-writers credited along with Brian. Clearly Jack's rewrite superseded some of the work by VDP, Ray Kennedy and (possibly) Tandyn Almer, and he was the last writer to lay hands on it vis-a-vis its genesis as a BBs track. Ray muddied the waters shortly thereafter with the version featuring his lyrics, as recorded by KGB.

Regardless of how it all actually happened, we should thank our lucky stars that it went down as it did. SOS carried a level of prestige that would never have occurred if WB hadn't interceded; imagine if they'd rolled over and gone with "We Got Love." While not a big hit, SOS was a major success d'estime and helped push the BBs back into wider acceptance, something that was particularly needed at that time, since SO TOUGH had been given very mixed reviews.

Despite his shaky timeline, VDP deserves his credit for the track, but at this point he's probably correct when he notes that the legal fees will likely be more than the royalties coming his way.

[c-man]

Of course, the Beach Boys did play Holland in December 1970 (three shows, followed by a fourth in neighboring Belgium). And Ray Kennedy's recollection of the song's genesis has it taking place that year...and while not crediting Van Dyke Parks with co-authorship, Ray does at least acknowledge his involvement in a kinda cryptic way (in that VDP was the only person other than Ray who Brian felt should sing the song). In his 2016 memoir, Brian recalled that he originally wrote the song with Ray and Danny for Three Dog Night in 1970-'71, so that fits both with Ray's recollections of it being intended for Three Dog Night, and of it coming to life in 1970 (although Brian doesn't mention VDP's initial involvement, only him coming to the band's rescue by resurrecting the song a couple of years later).

If you ask me, the most likely scenario was that Brian started the song, Van got him to finish the music (and came up with the hook line) - possibly in December of '70 while, coincidentally as it turns out, the other Boys actually were in Holland...then Ray got together with Brian very shortly after, and provided the initial set of lyrics (as described by Ray below). Two years later, Van reminds everyone of this gem in Brian's back pocket, at which point Jack rewrites the lyrics (keeping only a handful of Ray's original words). And as for Tandyn...maybe Brian felt bad about his name being removed from "Marcella", and just gave him a fourth of "SOS" to make up for it?

Ray Kennedy:
"Danny Hutton, one of the original singers of Three Dog Night, called me in 1970 when I was singing with Jeff Beck and said, 'Hey, we need a hit song.' So I went over to his house, and Brian was there in a little room with a piano and they stuck me in that room with Brian. We were there for three days and ended up writing 'Sail on Sailor', which was originally intended for Three Dog. We went in and cut the basic tracks with Three Dog Night; we hadn't slept in about a week. Then Brian got up with a razor blade and cut the tapes and said, "Only Ray Kennedy or Van Dyke Parks can do this song." And he left. We all stood there looking at each other going, 'What?'
 
"He called me every day after that, and I wouldn't talk to him. Three or four years later, I heard it on the radio and went, "Who's that?' It turns out the song came out on the Beach Boys' Holland album."  

Incidentally, other than very commonly used words such as "I" and "a", only eight of Ray's original words were kept in the final draft - specifically, "Often frightened, unenlightened", "stumble", "heartbreak", "wail", and "the thunder" (I'm giving Ray credit here for the very commonly used word "the" because it appears in a phrase with the not so commonly used word "thunder").

[WillJC]

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[c-man]

Tandyn's officially credited for music but Stan Shapiro recently claimed on twitter that he wrote the lyrics. I took to mean he was part of the Ray Kennedy version, based on Brian and Danny Hutton's recollections that there were a lot of people around all trying to get a line in.

Yeah, the official credits are a mess, with Van initially not credited at all, then credited for music only when he also wrote the words to the hook line - Tandyn being credited with music when according to Stan, he actually wrote words (even if only a line or so) - and neither being credited at all on the officially-released KGB version. Even if Ray was unaware of Van's contribution at the time of his own involvement, the Beach Boys' version had still been released by that time, so he should've seen that he was credited...

[All Summer Long]

For someone who's heard of Stan Shapiro but really don't know how he met Brian, can someone help me out?  I know he's involved in the early 70's Friends rewrites?  Can he be trusted especially since he was cited as the source for the Song to God story that Desper said doesn't exist? 

[Don Malcolm]

Thanks, c-man--my surmise is that Brian worked on the song somehow in the period after VDP "spruced it up" from that initial session at Danny Hutton's. Given Brian's penchant for blowing hot and cold on things (particularly in those days), I'm not convinced that it happened so close to the original "act of creation." Which would explain Steve Desper's recollection of it being worked on at the house in '71.

Has Danny Hutton ever verified that a version of SOS was worked on in a studio? Or was it supposed to have happened at Bellagio? While it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that Brian would do something like what Ray describes, my "urban legend" meter is pinning itself as I read his account.

So maybe a scenario like this:

--December '70: SOS initial version at Hutton's with Kennedy and Almer etal
--early '71: VDP visit with Brian reshapes the song (VDP intimates that he fixed words as well as music--"fixed," did not initiate...suggesting that Ray's words came first)
--early-mid '71: Brian starts his own production with Desper, eventually bringing in Carl. Work stalls: song isn't considered for SURF'S UP amidst the roiling competition underway for individual members' songs on the LP.
--fall '71: Brian, re-energized temporarily, writes "Beatrice" ("Mess of Help") and reconfigs "Pay" into "Marcella," helps with "He Come Down"...but doesn't, apparently, return to SOS.
--fall '72: VDP plays SOS tape for Berson/Ostin/Waronker in the wake of the contretemps over the original HOLLAND track lineup.

[WillJC]

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[Don Malcolm]

The point being elided here is that VDP's recollections are inaccurate and are being corrected by outsiders to conform to a coincidence (the BBs being in Holland in December 1970) that may or may not have occurred in that way.

VDP claims he authored the words, but we don't know what those words are. The assumption is that Ray Kennedy rewrote them, or that Brian neglected to tell him that VDP had written words for it initially; armed only with the title, the two of them (Brian and Ray) would have started over "from scratch."

There's still another possibility if we also try to fit in Brian's alleged tape slashing episode (assuming that this occurred). Brian may have worked with VDP in between the Ray Kennedy songwriting session and the production effort on the song. The incident, if it happened, could have stemmed from Brian feeling conflicted by the dual nature of his collaboration on the song--something he'd neglected to reveal to Kennedy and Hutton at the time--until, perhaps, he recalled it. Which would explain a panicky action such as slashing the tape and indicating that only Kennedy and VDP were entitled to "do" the song.

AGD suggested in a thread here (from 2007) that VDP's visit which produced the famous cassette tape was actually in '72 and provided other details:

The song originates from mid-1971 (is it germane that there's an "SOS" riff in Spring's "Tennessee Waltz" ?) and Brian recorded a partial version with Steve Desper in fall 1971. The famous cassette hails from fall 1972 when Reprise discrened [sic] no single on Holland and Van Dyke remembering the fragment he'd worked on with Brian a year previously (apparently unaware that Brian had done further work on it), showed up at Bellagio 10452 with a cassette recorder. The cassette is just under ten minutes long, all the dialog is present as reported (and some more), it stops and starts like a misfiring Chevvy and the lyrics are improvised on the spot. Brian, bless him, wasn't composing on the fly ("Brian, write a fuckin' middle-eight !"), he was recalling a song from his recent past. I doubt Van Dyke is aware of that to this day.

So AGD muddies things up even more with his dating, which adds a second VDP trip not alluded to by VDP anywhere.

In that same thread, c-man suggests that Jack's revisions could've come in 1971 and that Jack's lyrics were on the version recorded by Steve Desper.

It all makes sense if they worked on the song sometime in '71 after Brian had worked with Kennedy and VDP (in whatever order) and VDP's tape stems from an earlier point in time. But note that AGD suggests that Brian is remembering a song from his recent past...that could also fit with the notion that he worked on it with Kennedy first and had dredged it up during VDP's '71 visit, whereupon VDP wrote lyrics and added sections (presumably captured on the tape).

THAT would support the idea that the Kennedy songwriting session happened first, and that Brian worked with VDP in between that and a production session with Kennedy and Hutton, where Brian (in some kind of altered state) had sudden recall that the track had now been in the hands of two separate collaborators...hence slice the tape and "only Ray and VDP can do this song." (A flashback to the "Time to Get Alone"/"Darlin'" traumas, maybe?)

As someone else noted in the 2007 thread, the person likeliest to remember it all was Carl--from Steve's recollection, it's his vocal on the '71 version, so he had to know something about where it came from. Depending on Brian's state of mind at the time, he might easily have played a version of it to Carl and/or others, who would've picked up on it...

The question remaining is--why did the song languish? It would seem likeliest that Carl was dissatisfied with something about it at that time (there is the sense that he was never satisfied with his vocals for it...), so it got set aside--until whatever sequence of events vis-a-vis HOLLAND's reception at WB prompted VDP to retrieve his cassette, which led to the 11/28/72 session. It could also have been that the large number of tracks to choose from for SURF'S UP (including Dennis' songs that were in the running), combined with already having three Brian tracks in hand , made it into an easy song to shelve. (And there's AGD's dating of the Bellagio SOS session as "fall '71", which means after SURF'S UP was released...)

--Of course, someone can always go over to EH and re-engage AGD on this...of course, I am recusing myself and holding nothing but short straws in my hand for those who might see fit to volunteer! 

[WillJC]

I think this is massively overcomplicating the timeline. Van Dyke has never claimed to have written any lyrics beyond the chorus - when he says he authored the words to "Sail On Sail On Sailor", he means it literally - those five exact words. He's clarified as such on twitter.

Van Dyke was responsible for the bridge music and structured the song, so it's impossible for Ray to have written his lyrics beforehand (or have had any awareness of the thing being 'Sail On Sailor'  as that title also came from Van Dyke). Ray not knowing of Van Dyke's involvement doesn't contradict anything or suggest two separate songwriting sessions, it lines up with what Brian's said about bringing it to separate collaborators without telling them. I think AGD's assesment of Brian "remembering a song from his recent past" is a faulty interpretation based on the scattered dates given by participants. Personally I wouldn't put faith in the years given by any of them or in Van Dyke's questionable comment that the group were in Holland at the time - somewhere between 1970 and 1972 is all we've really got to go on.

Rieley's lyrics were written in '72 after the Holland album was initially rejected. That's the only part of the writing timeline we can definitively stamp a date on. I don't know what they were allegedly working with in '71, but Alan Boyd recently said they haven't found any evidence in the archives of a Beach Boys version on tape prior to the Holland track, which was definitely recorded from scratch in November '72 at Village Recorders. Not to say it didn't happen...but there's no sign of it among the Surf's Up and So Tough tapes. And Rieley didn't know about the song until Van Dyke's rescue (assuming Brian supplied a Kennedy lyric sheet prior to the rewrite), which puts the group working on an earlier version during his time as manager into question.

Of course there's the OTHER possibility that they first wrote and tried recording it way back in Summer 1970, between Sunflower submissions and before Jack Rieley...but that's a rabbit hole I'm not gonna go down.

[phirnis]

If I was a BB member in 1972 I wouldn't record a new track if I had a Brian Wilson track for that song available to the group. They probably did it anyway but I can't imagine why anyone would do that. "SOS" probably would have been a bigger hit as a full Brian production with some lead vocals (maybe the middle-eight?) sung by himself. One can only dream...

[Don Malcolm]

Certainly not interested in getting anyone's knickers in a twist over this, Salty. But a lot of loose ends are "lost and found and still remain there..."  and you introduce some points here that simply aren't in any other discussion of the song's genesis that I can find on the board (which is not to say that they are necessarily inaccurate, given how much inaccuracy has surrounded this topic!).

Clearly VDP's timeline concerning his session with Brian makes little sense, but he's been all over the map on such details elsewhere. His story remains colorful enough that it makes us want to hear that tape, if only to hear Brian's "hypnotize me" line.

Brian neglecting to tell two separate collaborators about their involvement during the time of conception is certainly something that we would attribute to him in the time frame. But assuming that the in-studio story Ray Kennedy told is true, then why wasn't there some kind of follow-up? Why would Ray not want to clarify what was going on? His claim is that he ducked Brian's calls, deciding to cut his losses after the (purported) tape-slashing incident, apparently not willing to go forward with the track, only to become involved in a credits/version dispute once SOS appeared on HOLLAND.

Has anyone asked Danny Hutton to verify this particular story?

As for Rieley and the purported SU version, Steve's comments as reported by c-man in the '07 thread (which also involve a conversation with Al) strongly suggest that there was some version somewhere with a Carl vocal prior to Village Recorders. That leaves open the idea that the version from Bellagio was mined for some of the tracks on the Village tape, and that it might have gone missing (as some number of tapes have done in the BBs career). Clearly a new vocal with Jack's lyrics was put on at that time. What's the basis for such assurance that the entire Village Recorder track was recorded from scratch? There are many examples of tracks being "flown in" by this point in time, so it's a possibility unless eyewitness testimony (that I am not locating anywhere) explicitly corroborates "from scratch."

Quoting from c-man's 2007 post: "Blondie and Ricky remember laying down the bass and drums (respectively) and Carl playing the morse-code pattern on the guitar (which was Brian's idea).  They remember Carl calling Brian on the phone (Brian didn't attend, or wasn't allowed to attend, the session, supposedly because of his by-then neurotic studio habits), but Carl had to call him from the studio to get the chord sequence.   This makes it sound as if the original piano track and maybe some of the background vocals were kept from the Desper version, while other instrumental parts were added at the Village in '72."

And, while not directly related to all of this speculation, there's the question of why none of the key band members seemed especially eager to sing the lead on the song...what's up with that? Was that just a swipe at WB for forcing them to do more work on the LP? Was someone's nose out of joint about having to add another Brian track to the record (note that w/o SOS, you've only got FP and the fairy tale, the latter of which was put into a state of limbo that could be interpreted as either "featuring Brian's charming one-off" or "marginalizing Brian's wacky whims.") Brian's negative memories about the song may not be related to the "strife" depicted in the song's lyrics, but in the real-life strife involved in the birthing of the song as a BB tune...

And finally--was Jack actually in LA in November '72? Gaines reported that Jack stayed in Holland after the BBs departed. In his interview with AGD (in Stomp ~20 years ago), Jack states that he flew back to LA after the LP was initially rejected and rewrote the lyrics at that point, but Gaines also suggests that there was some tug-of-war over whether Brian would be allowed to produce the song--which, ultimately, he was not. (His reluctance to be at the Village session may stem from events transpiring after the original LP was rejected by WB; AGD's sessions/gigs listings indicate that the band had a long tour in November '72, so it seems likely that there was a good bit of jockeying going on during that time related to the track.) It would be all of THIS that would be worth knowing, while at the same time profusely thanking Alan Boyd for running across the instrumental version of SOS, which over the years I've come to prefer to the official release.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I seem to recall reading that Dennis was also going to give a stab at the vocal but I may be misremembering