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Author Topic: is there a definitive bass list for David, Al and Brian during the 60's?  (Read 2212 times)
Rebel
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« on: April 24, 2020, 03:32:45 PM »

I had Made in California on shuffle today and it landed on the 'Surfers Rule - with session intro'. It sounds like to me that is has David on the bass at the beginning and not guitar - is that a bass? Sounds deep and like it's kind of distorting out. Common for those old Fender tube bass amps. I didn't know David played bass on any of those early career sessions.

I know Al and Brian played bass, and during a brief overlap both David and Al were in the recording studio.

So is there a list where we see who played bass on early 60's stuff before studio musicians began to creep in?
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2020, 05:42:30 PM »

I had never considered that, but Murry also says David to sweeten up and not remove treble (so I don't think it's likely would've said that about bass), plus it's possible that Al plays since this is on the Surfer Girl LP.  Plus, I know guitarfool2002 and/or c-man and/or Jon Stebbins have discussed that Carl and David used different string gauges than what are typically available now.

There are partial lists available, and I can dig up everything I've written down from the c-man's archives tomorrow.

EDIT: I think Jon Stebbins and Carrie Marks have said in the past that David has no memory of Carl playing bass in the studio while he was there. No comments about himself, but I assume he would said something if it happened/he remembered at that moment. Obviously he was 14/15, so understandable if he forgets. Just thought Id throw that out there. Not that Im an expert, but Im going to (slightly) throw my money behind on Al.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 09:48:24 PM by All Summer Long » Logged
aeijtzsche
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2020, 08:11:48 PM »

I think it's probably Carl on bass on Surfers Rule.
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aeijtzsche
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2020, 08:17:13 PM »

That said, Al did start to become the de facto studio bassist for the band around then, after he "came back" (Well, I never knew that he was gone, still they say Al is back...)
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2020, 09:30:11 PM »

Can't be Carl on bass as you hear their Dad say 'let me hear you David' and he plays what sounds like a bass. You hear Carl at the beginning plucking away at guitar, too.

As for the comment "I had never considered that, but Murry also says David to sweeten up and not remove treble (so I don't think it's likely would've said that about bass)"

Murry was kind of known to say stuff just to say stuff, it seems. He was also known to direct the guitars to be super trebly and bright. David Marks has credited him for suggesting that and making that sound come through. I think it's very possible that Murry thought David had a good bass tone and not to remove treble as the mix sounded good from in the room. merely to play smoother/cleaner etc as a way to 'sweeten it up'. He is kind of flubbing notes on the transition.

For me, it sounds like a bass being played through a Fender Showman and kind of 'flubbing out'. I went and played my P bass with a pick through my 1961 Fender Showman and at higher levels it will kind of flub out.

It's also a very typical bass line of the day doing the 1, 3, 5, 6.

Upon further listening in headphones: I'm almost certain David is playing bass. Especially when he transitions to the next part when Brian tells him to slow down.

I don't hear another guitar come in, either. Brian is on piano, too. Leaving the bass open.

I'd almost bet David is playing bass on it. Not that Wikipedia is de facto - but he isn't credited with playing bass on the whole album; perhaps this should be revised? Is this the only instance he is on bass?

Waiting to hear what C man would have to say, but at this point I feel pretty confident saying David is playing bass, which is kind of revolutionary at this point.
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2020, 06:50:23 AM »

That's something I've always been curious about, how Carl and Dave would've split up the bass duty on the very early recordings whenever Brian played keyboards. Anyone know anything about Lana and Little Deuce Coupe etc? Finders Keepers is a really unusual one where there straight up ISN'T a bass. I think Brian overdubbed bass on Cindy Oh Cindy.

On the first version of The Rocking Surfer (bootlegged) it sounds like a 5-piece band (not including Mike's sax), but on the final album version I'm only making out one guitar. That'd be another one.

How about the early Gary Usher/Brian demo session at Western? The tapes don't give a lot away, but it kinda sounds like Gary's on guitar there while Carl plays bass.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 06:58:52 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
aeijtzsche
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2020, 07:58:17 AM »

Can't be Carl on bass as you hear their Dad say 'let me hear you David' and he plays what sounds like a bass. You hear Carl at the beginning plucking away at guitar, too.

As for the comment "I had never considered that, but Murry also says David to sweeten up and not remove treble (so I don't think it's likely would've said that about bass)"

Murry was kind of known to say stuff just to say stuff, it seems. He was also known to direct the guitars to be super trebly and bright. David Marks has credited him for suggesting that and making that sound come through. I think it's very possible that Murry thought David had a good bass tone and not to remove treble as the mix sounded good from in the room. merely to play smoother/cleaner etc as a way to 'sweeten it up'. He is kind of flubbing notes on the transition.

For me, it sounds like a bass being played through a Fender Showman and kind of 'flubbing out'. I went and played my P bass with a pick through my 1961 Fender Showman and at higher levels it will kind of flub out.

It's also a very typical bass line of the day doing the 1, 3, 5, 6.

Upon further listening in headphones: I'm almost certain David is playing bass. Especially when he transitions to the next part when Brian tells him to slow down.

I don't hear another guitar come in, either. Brian is on piano, too. Leaving the bass open.

I'd almost bet David is playing bass on it. Not that Wikipedia is de facto - but he isn't credited with playing bass on the whole album; perhaps this should be revised? Is this the only instance he is on bass?

Waiting to hear what C man would have to say, but at this point I feel pretty confident saying David is playing bass, which is kind of revolutionary at this point.


Murry says "start it out with him, Carl--you and David".  So it can be Carl as far as that goes.
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2020, 08:08:11 AM »

Before Today is not my personnel wheelhouse, but here's what I've got for Today, SDSN, and PS:

Today:

Al plays bass on: DHMLS, WIGU(TBAM), SKMTW and is the only BB to play bass on that record.

SDSN: Al plays bass on GfNYC and YSGTM; Brian likely on TIKH and definitely on GDTM

PS: Brian likely plays bass on TNM, and may have overdubbed a second 6-string bass part there too, but it could have been Al.
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2020, 08:21:00 AM »

Before Today is not my personnel wheelhouse, but here's what I've got for Today, SDSN, and PS:

Today:

Al plays bass on: DHMLS, WIGU(TBAM), SKMTW and is the only BB to play bass on that record.



Uh...Brian is on bass for "Dance, Dance, Dance", and likely overdubbed a 6-string Dano part on "I'm So Young".
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2020, 08:29:55 AM »

I'll have to dig out my SOT disc and listen to the full session for "Surfer's Rule", but my recollection is that Carl definitley played bass on "South Bay Surfer" and overdubbed the lead guitar.

And, while not bootlegged, I've heard the full session tape for "Little Deuce Coupe", and that one definitely has Carl on bass, Brian on piano, and David playing the only guitar. Which is interesting, since it was cut at the same session as "Surfer Girl" (Brian on bass), and the basic track for "Catch A Wave" (Al on bass). Three songs in three hours, each with a different Beach Boy playing bass.
Probably the only time THAT ever happened!

Although, there was the Party! session at which Carl overdubbed bass on "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" - if Brian and Bruce both played bass that particular day, that would count. And, of course there's there were the Lei'd In Hawaii concerts at which Carl, Al, and Brian each took turns on the bass (professionally recorded, therefore counting as a recording session).
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 08:33:10 AM »

Before Today is not my personnel wheelhouse, but here's what I've got for Today, SDSN, and PS:

Today:

Al plays bass on: DHMLS, WIGU(TBAM), SKMTW and is the only BB to play bass on that record.



Uh...Brian is on bass for "Dance, Dance, Dance", and likely overdubbed a 6-string Dano part on "I'm So Young".


I think we've long since established that I am basically good for nothing at this point.
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2020, 08:43:34 AM »

Beyond PS to 20/20, as far as I'm aware (lots of probablies)

Brian:
Heroes and Villains (IIGS, likely Animals chant)
You're With Me Tonight (first version)
Vegetables
Gettin' Hungry (verse, probably high part in chorus)
Sloop John B (Lei'd)
A Thing or Two (both sections, probably)
Been Way Too Long (both main 1967 sections, again probably)
I'd Love Just Once to See You (secondary part, probably)
You're as Cool as Can Be (second version)
All I Wanna Do (first version, main part?)

Carl:
Good Vibrations (first version overdub, fourth and seventh versions)
Wind Chimes (first version)
He Gives Speeches
Holidays
Vegetables (1st chorus & 2nd chorus)
You're With Me Tonight (second version)
You're With Me Tonight (third version)
With Me Tonight (likely unused part)
Whistle In
Gettin' Hungry (probably low part in chorus)
almost all of the Lei'd in Hawaii studio versions except for Sloop John B (Brian) and probably Surfer Girl (Al?)
Game of Love
The Letter
With a Little Help from My Friends
Aren't You Glad
Cool Cool Water (second version, probably)
Lonely Days (basic track, replaced by Bruce, maybe replaced again by Ron Brown)
Let the Wind Blow
Hide Go Seek (probably)
Honey Get Home (maybe)
I'd Love Just Once to See You (main part, probably)
Country Air
You're as Cool as Can Be (first version)
Passing By (6-string)
Anna Lee the Healer
My Little Red Book (probably)
All I Wanna Do (first version 6-string?)
Do It Again (probably)
We're Together Again (first version)
Sail Plane Song
Ol' Man River (probably)
Walkin' (probably)
Can't Wait Too Long (intro, probably)
We're Together Again (second version, probably)
Never Learn Not to Love
I Can Hear Music

Al:
Surfer Girl (probably both Lei'd in Hawaii studio versions)
How She Boogalooed It
Walk On By

I don't know about the first versions of Transcendental Meditation and Be Still or the Friends-era Rock & Roll Woman and odd Time to Get Alone rewrite, but those sound quite Carl-ish too?

« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 08:57:53 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2020, 09:25:43 AM »

I'll have to dig out my SOT disc and listen to the full session for "Surfer's Rule", but my recollection is that Carl definitley played bass on "South Bay Surfer" and overdubbed the lead guitar.

And, while not bootlegged, I've heard the full session tape for "Little Deuce Coupe", and that one definitely has Carl on bass, Brian on piano, and David playing the only guitar. Which is interesting, since it was cut at the same session as "Surfer Girl" (Brian on bass), and the basic track for "Catch A Wave" (Al on bass). Three songs in three hours, each with a different Beach Boy playing bass.
Probably the only time THAT ever happened!

Although, there was the Party! session at which Carl overdubbed bass on "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" - if Brian and Bruce both played bass that particular day, that would count. And, of course there's there were the Lei'd In Hawaii concerts at which Carl, Al, and Brian each took turns on the bass (professionally recorded, therefore counting as a recording session).


Fascinating. So for the song "Little Deuce Coupe", would that be the only incident of David being the only guitar player on a recorded BBs song?
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2020, 08:49:41 PM »

I'll have to dig out my SOT disc and listen to the full session for "Surfer's Rule", but my recollection is that Carl definitley played bass on "South Bay Surfer" and overdubbed the lead guitar.

And, while not bootlegged, I've heard the full session tape for "Little Deuce Coupe", and that one definitely has Carl on bass, Brian on piano, and David playing the only guitar. Which is interesting, since it was cut at the same session as "Surfer Girl" (Brian on bass), and the basic track for "Catch A Wave" (Al on bass). Three songs in three hours, each with a different Beach Boy playing bass.
Probably the only time THAT ever happened!

Although, there was the Party! session at which Carl overdubbed bass on "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" - if Brian and Bruce both played bass that particular day, that would count. And, of course there's there were the Lei'd In Hawaii concerts at which Carl, Al, and Brian each took turns on the bass (professionally recorded, therefore counting as a recording session).


c-man, is that the only Party! song that Carl plays bass on? I know during the sessions, Bruce comments for Carl to go get his bass, but I assumed it was a joke.

And, regarding the Surfer Girl album, does that mean that the idea of marathon sessions with Al alternating between playing bass on some songs and sitting around doing nothing on others is possible?
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2020, 11:56:52 PM »

wow never knew carl played so much studio bass.  of course he did, but wow, had no idea......for the pre pet sounds stuff what did Al play bass on?  im sorry i was born during the keepin the summer alive tour and dont have all those abbreviations hardwired- huge fan of all eras though
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2020, 12:01:04 PM »

wow never knew carl played so much studio bass.  of course he did, but wow, had no idea......for the pre pet sounds stuff what did Al play bass on?  im sorry i was born during the keepin the summer alive tour and dont have all those abbreviations hardwired- huge fan of all eras though

Before Today is not my personnel wheelhouse, but here's what I've got for Today, SDSN, and PS:

Today:

Al plays bass on: DHMLS, WIGU(TBAM), SKMTW and is the only BB to play bass on that record.



Uh...Brian is on bass for "Dance, Dance, Dance", and likely overdubbed a 6-string Dano part on "I'm So Young".


Al:
DHMLS - Dont My Little Sister
WIGU(TBAM) - When I Grow Up To Be A Man
SKMTW - She Knows Me Too Well
GfNYC - The Girl from New York City
YSGTM - Youre So Good To Me

Brian:
TIKH - Then I Kissed Her
GDTM - Girl Dont Tell Me
TNM - Thats Not Me

I thought Al also played on Im So Young too (Al on Fender, Carl on Dano, and Brian on an overdubbed Dano).
The Dano on Thats Not Me could be Brian or Al, according to c-man and Joshilyn.


On an another related topic, SaltyMarshmallow, you definitely think Carl is on that much? Crazy, especially Do It Again, which a I thought wouldve leaned towards Al.
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2020, 12:08:10 PM »

wow never knew carl played so much studio bass.  of course he did, but wow, had no idea......for the pre pet sounds stuff what did Al play bass on?  im sorry i was born during the keepin the summer alive tour and dont have all those abbreviations hardwired- huge fan of all eras though

Before Today is not my personnel wheelhouse, but here's what I've got for Today, SDSN, and PS:

Today:

Al plays bass on: DHMLS, WIGU(TBAM), SKMTW and is the only BB to play bass on that record.



Uh...Brian is on bass for "Dance, Dance, Dance", and likely overdubbed a 6-string Dano part on "I'm So Young".


Al:
DHMLS - Dont My Little Sister
WIGU(TBAM) - When I Grow Up To Be A Man
SKMTW - She Knows Me Too Well
GfNYC - The Girl from New York City
YSGTM - Youre So Good To Me

Brian:
TIKH - Then I Kissed Her
GDTM - Girl Dont Tell Me
TNM - Thats Not Me

I thought Al also played on Im So Young too (Al on Fender, Carl on Dano, and Brian on an overdubbed Dano).
The Dano on Thats Not Me could be Brian or Al, according to c-man and Joshilyn.


On an another related topic, SaltyMarshmallow, you definitely think Carl is on that much? Crazy, especially Do It Again, which a I thought wouldve leaned towards Al.


Carl was playing bass on pretty much everything else in the studio at the time unless session musicians were involved. He was the bass player among the boys after Smile, with some exceptions. Do It Again's bass was an overdub and I just don't see Al sticking around to do that given his lack of instrument playing on most other things at the time. He does seem to be responsible for the hardly-noticeable Walk On By bass though recorded at the same session.

Quote
for the pre pet sounds stuff what did Al play bass on?

Post-Surfer Girl and pre-Today, Al played bass on almost everything. This is basically gonna just be a list of songs they recorded in that era:

Be True to Your School (album version)
Spirit of America
No-Go Showboat
Ballad of Ole' Betsy
Crazy Car Cutie
Cherry Cherry Coupe
Custom Machine
Little Saint Nick
I Do (first version)
Fun Fun Fun
Don't Worry Baby
In the Parkin' Lot
This Car of Mine
Keep an Eye on Summer
Pom Pom Playgirl
Shut Down Part II
I Get Around
Little Honda
Girls on the Beach
Don't Back Down
Carl's Big Chance
Hushabye
Wendy
All Summer Long
Do You Remember
The Man With All the Toys
Santa's Beard
Merry Christmas Baby

Brian played bass on Christmas Day, I think Louie Louie, and one of the Fun Fun Fun overdubs.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 12:18:13 PM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2020, 12:26:11 PM »

Good work.
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2020, 12:48:12 PM »

SaltyMarshmallow, thanks for responding quickly and sorry for the doubting tone of my question. Its just so shocking for me that Al can go from being the studio bassist to barely playing on anything unless he brought it the band or sang lead on it. But then again, this is The Beach Boys, and all sorts of crazy stuff has happened and continues to. Thanks again!!
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2020, 01:21:20 PM »

SaltyMarshmallow, thanks for responding quickly and sorry for the doubting tone of my question. Its just so shocking for me that Al can go from being the studio bassist to barely playing on anything unless he brought it the band or sang lead on it. But then again, this is The Beach Boys, and all sorts of crazy stuff has happened and continues to. Thanks again!!

No problem! Hey, it's still totally possible that Al played bass on Do It Again since there's no way to know for sure with most overdubs, it'd just be an odd kick in the trend at the time! It could've been Brian for all we know.
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2020, 07:21:05 PM »

It is strange that Al was such a prominent instrumentalist from Surfer Girl through Summer Days, and then drops out. Of course, he plays here and there, but sparingly. And like others have pointed off, when he does play, it's on something he's singing or co-wrote like Crack At Your Love, Island Girl, It's About Time...

Given the fact that much KTSA was recorded at his studio, I wonder if he played on that album more than one would think?
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2020, 07:37:01 PM »

SaltyMarshmallow, thanks for responding quickly and sorry for the doubting tone of my question. Its just so shocking for me that Al can go from being the studio bassist to barely playing on anything unless he brought it the band or sang lead on it. But then again, this is The Beach Boys, and all sorts of crazy stuff has happened and continues to. Thanks again!!

No problem! Hey, it's still totally possible that Al played bass on Do It Again since there's no way to know for sure with most overdubs, it'd just be an odd kick in the trend at the time! It could've been Brian for all we know.

SaltyMarshmallow, do you have any clue about who played bass on the various Party! songs? Im going to guess Bruce on Barbara Ann because he seems to play the same bassline at Knebworth. Not like we can use Brian in 2012 as a judge since he stays on the roots of the chords. Also, is Youve Got To Hide Your Love Away the only one on that album with Carl on bass? Bruce does make a joke about Carl grabbing his bass, but it sounds like a joke.

It is strange that Al was such a prominent instrumentalist from Surfer Girl through Summer Days, and then drops out. Of course, he plays here and there, but sparingly. And like others have pointed off, when he does play, it's on something he's singing or co-wrote like Crack At Your Love, Island Girl, It's About Time...

Given the fact that much KTSA was recorded at his studio, I wonder if he played on that album more than one would think?

C-man said that he thinks its because Als very hard on his own playing, I dont think Al plays on Crack At Your Love, but he does (rhythm, Im assuming) on California Calling. I remember c-man says that Al plays on Santa Ana Winds and Endless Harmony, plus at least one or two outtakes: Goin To The Beach (and maybe Johnny B. Goode, but I cant remember.) Im guessing School Days could be a possibility too?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 07:39:35 PM by All Summer Long » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2020, 08:03:49 PM »

I strongly wish that thered be reissues of the albums with accurate liner notes of who played what . Or at least as accurate as possible, for their entire career, collected in one easy to access spot, almost as bad as I would love to actually play around with the mixes ... for fun not to improve on what was done because that is impossible. More because Im interested in hearing all of the little details .
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2020, 07:43:40 AM »

SaltyMarshmallow, thanks for responding quickly and sorry for the doubting tone of my question. Its just so shocking for me that Al can go from being the studio bassist to barely playing on anything unless he brought it the band or sang lead on it. But then again, this is The Beach Boys, and all sorts of crazy stuff has happened and continues to. Thanks again!!

No problem! Hey, it's still totally possible that Al played bass on Do It Again since there's no way to know for sure with most overdubs, it'd just be an odd kick in the trend at the time! It could've been Brian for all we know.

SaltyMarshmallow, do you have any clue about who played bass on the various Party! songs? Im going to guess Bruce on Barbara Ann because he seems to play the same bassline at Knebworth. Not like we can use Brian in 2012 as a judge since he stays on the roots of the chords. Also, is Youve Got To Hide Your Love Away the only one on that album with Carl on bass? Bruce does make a joke about Carl grabbing his bass, but it sounds like a joke.

It is strange that Al was such a prominent instrumentalist from Surfer Girl through Summer Days, and then drops out. Of course, he plays here and there, but sparingly. And like others have pointed off, when he does play, it's on something he's singing or co-wrote like Crack At Your Love, Island Girl, It's About Time...

Given the fact that much KTSA was recorded at his studio, I wonder if he played on that album more than one would think?

C-man said that he thinks its because Als very hard on his own playing, I dont think Al plays on Crack At Your Love, but he does (rhythm, Im assuming) on California Calling. I remember c-man says that Al plays on Santa Ana Winds and Endless Harmony, plus at least one or two outtakes: Goin To The Beach (and maybe Johnny B. Goode, but I cant remember.) Im guessing School Days could be a possibility too?

Regarding "Barbara Ann" - Bruce once told me (in person) that Brian played the bass on that.

From the KTSA sessions, I only have AFM documentation and sometimes tape box track sheet notation to go by, as I've not heard the tapes. The only indication there of an Al instrumental contribution is on "Goin' To The Beach", on which both the AFM contract AND the track sheet notation indicate he added a guitar part. There's actually no documentation of him playing on "Santa Ana Winds", but I'd say there's a very good chance that he did (since it's his song, and since no other guitarist is documented as having played on it).


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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2020, 08:05:29 AM »

Al played a modest amount from Sunflower to Holland, didn't he? Not that I can think of much outside of his own songs but he seemed more active instrumentally. Then of course Come Go With Me, and later MIU. It's pretty strange that Carl and Dennis were playing all over 15 Big Ones and Love You but Al basically only turned up for vocals, and in the case of 15BO quite a bit more than them on that end.
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