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Author Topic: Other first (and last?) instrument uses on BBs records  (Read 4377 times)
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« on: April 08, 2020, 02:10:31 PM »

Hive mind, thank you for your help with Clarinets and Flutes.  Some other instruments I want to make sure I've identified all the appearances of:


Trumpet:  First appearance - SDSN - Salt Lake, Cal Gs, LHRW, etc

Horn: First - Today - Kiss Me, Baby .... Thru Pet Sounds (GOK), Smile a little?, what about beyond that?

Trombone:  First - Pet Sounds? Trombone Dix and Here Today...Smile....

English Horn - Today, kiss me...PS, I'm waiting, probably GOK ....

Now - was there ever a true tuba family instrument?  Wagner Tubas are from the horn family and likely appeared on Surf's Up, yes?  But was there ever an actual basstuba? Euphonium? - Wake the world?

What about Saxhorn family - Flugelhorn, Alto Horn, Baritone Horn, etc?

We covered winds pretty well... first flute family instrument would be...be true to your school?  Then Picc on ASL track?


I may think of more as we go.  Thanks.  I have a master list but I want to make sure I didn't miss anything.

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Shane
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2020, 09:55:04 PM »

A section of "Look" from Smile has a tuba, or something in that realm.
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c-man
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2020, 10:27:13 PM »

Brian used trumpets and trombones on "Guess I'm Dumb", recorded during the Today! sessions. Not a Beach Boys track, but still a great BW production!

French horns were used on "Be With Me", "Souful Old Man Sunshine", I think "Good Time", and the Adult Child orchestral tracks. Same with trombones.

English horn was last used on the last Beach Boys track - "Summer's Gone". Smiley

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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2020, 10:27:43 PM »

A section of "Look" from Smile has a tuba, or something in that realm.

Ah yes.  It's hard to pinpoint tubas, there being a few types.  I've definitely never heard about what Hollywood tuba players in the 60s preferred, though one would assume that Euphonia and Baritone Horns would have been pushed on producers because of their handiness.  Otherwise, I assume the current europe/britain/us divisions were in place in the 60s as well, and that, if a proper bass tuba was called for in the studio, it'd be a CC or maybe an F.
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WillJC
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2020, 05:47:36 AM »

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Emdeeh
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2020, 07:26:50 AM »

Does the Christmas album play into the question at hand? It sounds like we're looking for instruments used in sessions produced by Brian or one of the other BBs, so I expect not.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 07:28:38 AM by Emdeeh » Logged
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2020, 08:54:33 AM »

Does the Christmas album play into the question at hand? It sounds like we're looking for instruments used in sessions produced by Brian or one of the other BBs, so I expect not.

Yeah, for the purposes of producing my videos, I'm not going to really address the orchestral stuff on the Christmas album, which certainly has a lot of instruments!!
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2020, 08:57:44 AM »

C-man Craig,

Who were the various tuba players that are credited on the documentation?  I don't really remember...  That would be a good place to start to figure out what kind of tuba for each track.
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c-man
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2020, 09:15:00 AM »

C-man Craig,

Who were the various tuba players that are credited on the documentation?  I don't really remember...  That would be a good place to start to figure out what kind of tuba for each track.

David Duke - tuben horn (& French horn) on "Surf's Up"
Dick Hyde - tuba (& flugel horn) on "Wake The World", tuba on "Look" and "Teeter Totter Love"
George "Red" Callender - tuba on the Christmas Album tracks and "Three Blind Mice"
Don Waldrop - tuba on "Loop de Loop" and apparently one of the Adult Child tracks (his name is on a belatedly-submitted AFM contract with no song title, but with a session date that's within a few days of those sessions)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 09:23:37 AM by c-man » Logged
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2020, 10:47:13 AM »

C-man Craig,

Who were the various tuba players that are credited on the documentation?  I don't really remember...  That would be a good place to start to figure out what kind of tuba for each track.

David Duke - tuben horn (& French horn) on "Surf's Up"
Dick Hyde - tuba (& flugel horn) on "Wake The World", tuba on "Look" and "Teeter Totter Love"
George "Red" Callender - tuba on the Christmas Album tracks and "Three Blind Mice"
Don Waldrop - tuba on "Loop de Loop" and apparently one of the Adult Child tracks (his name is on a belatedly-submitted AFM contract with no song title, but with a session date that's within a few days of those sessions)


Great. 

So Duke is a horn player (recall that wagner tubas are actually horn family instrument, different mouthpiece from an actual tuba so there's rarely and crossover/doubling there, whole different embouchure...)

Hyde and Waldrop appear to be Trombone players, in which case it's very likely we are hearing Euphonia (or baritone horns) on their tracks because that is a very common double for trombone players, though certainly at that point it's no great stretch to play Eb or F Bass Tuba.  Red Callender played full on tubas, probably Ebs or Fs.
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c-man
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2020, 10:55:27 AM »

Curious about "Dreamer" from POB - during John Hanlon's guitar solo, there's a tuba-sounding instrument puffing away in the background, right channel IIRC. Reportedly, this is Dennis himself playing an actual tuba. Not an especially sophisticated part, so not hard to imagine him playing it (especially considering his prowess on the bass harmonica - which, while obviously requiring a somewhat different approach, is still an instrument that is blown into). What do we make of that - an actual tuba, or something similar?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 11:06:45 AM by c-man » Logged
WillJC
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2020, 11:53:24 AM »

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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2020, 04:37:14 PM »

Upon learning that there's a kazoo on "San Miguel", this makes me wonder - how many other BBs songs have a kazoo on them? I'm thinking on some SMiLE tracks, but maybe that's it? Or perhaps one of those Al-ified versions of Loop-De-Loop?
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Mitchell
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2020, 09:43:21 PM »

I couldn't think of a better thread for this than the random instrument hub. Any idea what the hell that whooshing noise is at the end of the a capella break in the single version of Heroes and Villains?

(am aware Probyn used a Tannerin on BWPS but that seemed to get a very different sound)

If it's the part I'm thinking, I've heard it as one of those ring whistle things that chews your lip if you're not careful. I think one instance is at normal speed and it appears later in the song slowed down, which gives it a theremin-like sound. That's just conjecture on my part, though.
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2020, 09:49:33 PM »

What about the horns on trombone Dixie? we seemed to have missed that one. Also isn’t there a French horn in kiss me baby?
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2020, 10:02:58 PM »

What about the horns on trombone Dixie? we seemed to have missed that one. Also isn’t there a French horn in kiss me baby?

Both mentioned in my original post!
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WillJC
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2020, 12:21:32 AM »

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WillJC
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2020, 12:55:49 AM »

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zaval80
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2020, 06:07:55 AM »

Also, just to backtrack so everything's covered: clarinets on Good Vibrations June 16 & 18, Holidays, My Only Sunshine, Love to Say Da Da
Clarinet on GV sessions was used from the very first session - contra-clarinet for S1 and S2, clarinet from S4. I wouldn't say I am able to hear it clearly in GV from S1 or S2, though. I've noticed that TSS book has Fender bass with fuzz in choruses for S1 and S2 played by Ray Pohlman, and contra-clarinet was played during S1 and S2 likewise. Funny thing, I can't hear fuzz during S1 at all, though both basses, the Fender and the upright, are heard absolutely clearly. But there is just a modicum of fuzz during S2, indeed - I guess it's buried deep down in the mix. If I understood it right, any signs of "heaviness" during the choruses of S1 which may be heard are down to contra-clarinet and not the fuzz. For S2, the "heaviest" instrument is the bass harmonica, heard most obviously in the bridge. (Still, I wonder what was the need to use the combination of a Fender bass with fuzz during S1 and S2, as the only clear cases of fuzz use in GV tapes start from S3, when fuzz was driven with a Dano played by Bill Pitman with the exception of S4.)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 06:09:45 AM by zaval80 » Logged
WillJC
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2020, 06:39:14 AM »

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zaval80
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« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2020, 07:21:00 AM »

There wasn't a clarinet used in the first session, just four c-flutes.

Is this known for sure (no contra-clarinet in S1), or that's your impression? Different flutes are mentioned in TSS, but no 4 c-ones. "Flutey" sessions are S4 and S5, pure folk-rock.

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Brian does briefly mention something about a fuzztone during one of the sessions (can't remember which) but it doesn't sound to me at all like Ray's bass used one - Carol Kaye's 12-string guitar on the other hand does sound like it went through a fuzz pedal.
Yes, in S5, I think ("Anybody got a fuzztone? Can you try fuzz?"; sure Bill Pitman had it).

I agree it's strange to have a Fender bass driving the fuzz, only to obtain some pituful results (in the mixes we have, that is; an important notion because fuzz is not heard that well during S3 tapes, but in one of the final takes for song parts where it is mixed LOUDLY). It would be way more logical to ask a guitarist for that (though not likely the 12-string player), if just a subtle (or, shall I say, finely controlled) fuzz effect was what needed - must be why from S3 it's Dano and not Fender that was fuzzed. Still, some fuzz-like distortion can be vaguely heard near the end of one of the fuller takes of S2 (closer to coda), though nowhere of an obvious kind a Fender bass can create. And I've listened several times through the S1 tapes, and found just a second where some echo of a distortion is heard, but, unlike with S2, no obvious moment where I could say "that must be fuzz".

I think I hear during GV choruses of S1, S2 certain "heavy moments" where obviously some "heavy sound" was intended - like, 6 to 8 or so short bursts. These may be created by fuzz, or these may be created by a clarinet in the case of S1 (where there was no bass harmonica). But I don't think these indicate the use of fuzz; they're too subtle for this. And of course the basses are heard only too clear on their own during S1.    
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WillJC
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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2020, 07:54:54 AM »

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zaval80
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2020, 09:04:54 AM »

'Contra-clarinet' isn't an instrument, it's just something Brian says on the tape (April 9 session though, not the original) because it's Brian.

Aw, thank you! I'll have to look that moment up (and to educate myself about the "contra-clarinet"  Cheesy)

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The original Good Vibrations woodwinds are a flute quartet, none of which go above or below the range of a standard c-flute - one playing a lead melody, the other three providing block harmonies. The second version reduced that to two standard flutes and apparently a piccolo.

I'm not a musician, so will have to think of this, thank you - obviously I remember piccolo on its own from the intro, but not much beyond that.

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The fuzz box usually used by Bill Pitman, Carol and others on 60s session dates was a Gibson Maestro. It could've been used on a Fender bass if needed, Brian just didn't go that for whatever reason and usually kept those parts to 6-strings. Gonna have to hard disagree with the TSS book that a fuzz pedal was used on any basses until the May 27th Good Vibrations session. There may be some natural distortion happening but no deliberate effect.
Later today I'll be able to quote you the exact moments where I've heard fuzz in S2 (which would make it supposedly Pohlman's work on the Fender), where I've heard a second of some echo vaguely referring to a distortion in S1, but yes I doubt the TSS book regarding fuzz during S1. As for S3, fuzz is very clear in, I think, "Archaeology". I'll quote that as well. I've listened too much to those tapes to take fuzz for natural distortion.
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zaval80
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2020, 03:07:26 PM »

'Contra-clarinet' isn't an instrument, it's just something Brian says on the tape (April 9 session though, not the original) because it's Brian. The original Good Vibrations woodwinds are a flute quartet, none of which go above or below the range of a standard c-flute - one playing a lead melody, the other three providing block harmonies. The second version reduced that to two standard flutes and apparently a piccolo.

I Googled "contra clarinet", and came up with "contrabass clarinet" and "contra alto clarinet"; it's understood these are rare instruments, but nonetheless not something out of complete reach. Wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrabass_clarinet) has this photo of both lined up near one another: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Clarinette_metal_CAlt_CBas.jpg/200px-Clarinette_metal_CAlt_CBas.jpg

S1 line-up as per TSS included 3 flutes: piccolo, flute, tenor flute. This line-up of 3 flutes was the same for S2 and S3 as well (ocarina was also used additionally during S2). For S1 and S2, it says contra-clarinet. I am under the impression that there was no clarinet, a common one or of contrabass variety, during S1, you are right about this. However, it was employed during S2 for sure. I think it can heard very clearly in the bridge, after the bass harmonica - on its own and in interplay with bass harmonica.

Now, to the use of fuzz. I am interested in this because of what happens in the choruses, like, is there fuzz or other bassy instruments. Fuzz is mixed low in the choruses. Among S1-S2-S3, it's best heard in S3, not as good in S2, and as to S1, one has to strain his ears to detect it, I guess. Because fuzz is mixed low in the choruses, one could think of other instruments making "heavy" sounds instead of fuzz, but I think it's fuzz in the choruses and things like bass harmonica (S2 and S3), bass sax (S3), contra clarinet (S2) in parts like bridge and the closing parts.

S3: fuzz can be heard to a good effect (though obviously not on the level of the fuzz-bass bridge of S6), especially on Archaeology, track 3-10. Here, fuzz is heard in the chorus and chorus fade, and bass harmonica and bass sax are in the bridge.

S2: likewise, but not as clear as on Archaeology 3-10 (Session 3) - on Archaeology 3-02 and 3-11. Here, fuzz is heard in the chorus at lower volume, and bass harmonica and contra(bass, I guess?) clarinet - in the bridge, in this order of appearance, LOUD. There's an interesting mix (Heroes & Vibrations track 1) where fuzz and these instruments are mixed at a similar level. I guess this indicates that the idea was to mix fuzz low in the choruses from the start, as that's how it is on most of the tapes. When we hear bass harmonica or clarinet, they are loud. Otherwise, nothing would prevent Brian from using sax-clarinet-bass harmonica instead of fuzz and mixing them low just the same.

S1: impossibly tricky re: contra-clarinet and fuzz. I don't hear any clarinet at all (I had a notion it may have been used in the choruses and mixed way low, but I really doubt it; this way, Brian would have had no reason to employ fuzz at all.) Fuzz is not heard as well, but there are interesting moments:

SOT UM Vol. 15 1-13: at 1.40 to 1.41 a very vague distortion can be heard in the 2nd chorus of one of Takes 24.

More interestingly, these "distortion moments" can be heard in some of finished versions, which are based on Take 28. Yet I wasn't able to detect any distortion during Take 28 as on SOT UM or on "Stereo backing track" of Take 28 which is on TPSS box from 1997, track 2-13.

Yet, one can hear such "moment of distortion" (strangely, single ones, never two or more in a row) on:
- track 2-12 of TPSS box (1997) at 0.37 - session tape;
- track 2-13 of SMiLE 2CD version at 0.43 - session tape;
- track 25 of the twofer at 1.29 and Good Vibrations box track 5-08 - early version with vocals (!)

All these utilize S1 material.

If this distortion is created by louder moments of fuzz coming through, then it WAS used during S1, but mixed so low in all available tapes and mixes that it can't be heard unmistakably on its own. But the question arises, what's the use in mixing fuzz that low.

As nothing like bass harmonica, bass sax, or it seems, contra clarinet was employed during S1, and fuzz, if there's any, is unheard, it's understood Brian ordered a Jew harp overdub to compensate.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 03:11:24 PM by zaval80 » Logged
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