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Author Topic: First appearance of clarinets on BBs record (and final?)  (Read 5048 times)
c-man
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2020, 10:52:03 AM »

Just remembered that there's clarinet (and bass clarinet) on some of the Imagination songs - like, "She Says That She Needs Me". Not a BBs record, of course, but a BW record nonetheless.
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2020, 11:00:17 AM »

OK, so the lower flute on Caroline actually does have to be a bass flute--it goes down below the Alto Flute's compass.

So I'm thinking the lineup is:

1 concert flute, 2 altos, and a bass?

In this video of the Caroline backing track, at what time stamp in the track do you hear the low note that suggests it's lower than an alto flute?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypKTz1Kmpg
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2020, 11:02:50 AM »

Just an aside: Whether it's actually there in the blend or not, I always thought there was a clarinet in the marching band ensemble heard on the "Be True To Your School" single mix. What woodwind says "marching band" more than a clarinet and piccolo?  LOL
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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2020, 11:12:20 AM »

OK, so the lower flute on Caroline actually does have to be a bass flute--it goes down below the Alto Flute's compass.

So I'm thinking the lineup is:

1 concert flute, 2 altos, and a bass?

In this video of the Caroline backing track, at what time stamp in the track do you hear the low note that suggests it's lower than an alto flute?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypKTz1Kmpg

If you sing the lyrics to the melody at the end that the flutes play, the "did" in "where did your long hair go" is a middle C on the lowest flute and should be the lowest note an alto flute can play, but the melody goes much lower (to at least an F3, can't tell if the low Db is even played on the bass flute).
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2020, 11:18:08 AM »

Speaking of flutes and Pet Sounds era tracks, I just had a listen to the first Good Vibrations session on UM, and it seems as if there's a quartet of flutes/alto flutes/piccolos on the verse (with one playing the melody, and the other three forming chords around it). However, the sessionography in the Smile book gives Bill Green a credit on contrabass clarinet, which I'm not hearing anywhere. What does the AFM contract say?

Also, the 4/9 session has Arthur C. Smith credited for ocarina and piccolo in the book, but I'm just hearing piccolo throughout the session. I'm guessing ocarina was tried in early rehearsals and not kept?
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2020, 11:24:09 AM »

OK, so the lower flute on Caroline actually does have to be a bass flute--it goes down below the Alto Flute's compass.

So I'm thinking the lineup is:

1 concert flute, 2 altos, and a bass?

In this video of the Caroline backing track, at what time stamp in the track do you hear the low note that suggests it's lower than an alto flute?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypKTz1Kmpg

If you sing the lyrics to the melody at the end that the flutes play, the "did" in "where did your long hair go" is a middle C on the lowest flute and should be the lowest note an alto flute can play, but the melody goes much lower (to at least an F3, can't tell if the low Db is even played on the bass flute).


on that video 0:58 is one example of a low concert E that would be full minor third below the Alto's low G.  (keeping in mind that that backing track is sped up to match the LP)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:24:45 AM by aeijtzsche » Logged
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2020, 11:24:44 AM »

OK, so the lower flute on Caroline actually does have to be a bass flute--it goes down below the Alto Flute's compass.

So I'm thinking the lineup is:

1 concert flute, 2 altos, and a bass?

In this video of the Caroline backing track, at what time stamp in the track do you hear the low note that suggests it's lower than an alto flute?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypKTz1Kmpg

If you sing the lyrics to the melody at the end that the flutes play, the "did" in "where did your long hair go" is a middle C on the lowest flute and should be the lowest note an alto flute can play, but the melody goes much lower (to at least an F3, can't tell if the low Db is even played on the bass flute).

Keep in mind the track was recorded a half-step lower too - In the original key before it was sped up, I did hear what sounded like a flute hitting its lowest note as an "E". So the melody and the corresponding notes would be:
"Where (E) did (B) your (G) long (F) hair (D) go (A) oh (G) oh (F)"

So yes, the alto flute's low range would stop at the "G", and the melody goes under that. It's very hard to hear but in this case yes it would be lower than an alto flute if it is a flute doubling down an octave.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2020, 11:27:33 AM »

Here's a quick transcrip of one way to do it.  I haven't added in all the nice little flutey embellishments and the rhythm isn't quite right but the pitches are.  It's not laid out to follow the song but simply all the times the flute play condensed into one iteration of each.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:29:27 AM by aeijtzsche » Logged
c-man
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2020, 12:11:35 PM »

Speaking of flutes and Pet Sounds era tracks, I just had a listen to the first Good Vibrations session on UM, and it seems as if there's a quartet of flutes/alto flutes/piccolos on the verse (with one playing the melody, and the other three forming chords around it). However, the sessionography in the Smile book gives Bill Green a credit on contrabass clarinet, which I'm not hearing anywhere. What does the AFM contract say?

Also, the 4/9 session has Arthur C. Smith credited for ocarina and piccolo in the book, but I'm just hearing piccolo throughout the session. I'm guessing ocarina was tried in early rehearsals and not kept?

At some point in that first session, Brian calls out the contra clarinet by name. Maybe he misspoke, or maybe that instrument was replaced by the final take, but the assignment is based on that. What I have down as a tenor flute could well by an alto flute.

As for the 4/9 session - yes, quite possibly.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2020, 12:27:39 PM »

Speaking of flutes and Pet Sounds era tracks, I just had a listen to the first Good Vibrations session on UM, and it seems as if there's a quartet of flutes/alto flutes/piccolos on the verse (with one playing the melody, and the other three forming chords around it). However, the sessionography in the Smile book gives Bill Green a credit on contrabass clarinet, which I'm not hearing anywhere. What does the AFM contract say?

Also, the 4/9 session has Arthur C. Smith credited for ocarina and piccolo in the book, but I'm just hearing piccolo throughout the session. I'm guessing ocarina was tried in early rehearsals and not kept?

At some point in that first session, Brian calls out the contra clarinet by name. Maybe he misspoke, or maybe that instrument was replaced by the final take, but the assignment is based on that. What I have down as a tenor flute could well by an alto flute.

As for the 4/9 session - yes, quite possibly.

Another important note on naming conventions - within the Clarinet family now; "contra clarinet" is not really a thing -- there are contra-alto and contrabass clarinets.  Contrabass clarinets are really quite rare, even moreso than bass flutes.  If there is a clarinet lower than a bass clarinet on a BBs record, I'd expect it to be a contra-alto clarinet, which, while still relatively rare, seems more likely to even be manufactured let alone purchase-able at that time.

For a beautiful example, see: https://www.wwbw.com/Selmer-Paris-Model-40-Contra-Alto-Clarinet-620602.wwbw

And as you can see, it costs about the same as a luxury sedan.  So you have to know you're gonna use it before you take out a loan on that!
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sloopjohnb72
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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2020, 12:36:24 PM »

Speaking of flutes and Pet Sounds era tracks, I just had a listen to the first Good Vibrations session on UM, and it seems as if there's a quartet of flutes/alto flutes/piccolos on the verse (with one playing the melody, and the other three forming chords around it). However, the sessionography in the Smile book gives Bill Green a credit on contrabass clarinet, which I'm not hearing anywhere. What does the AFM contract say?

Also, the 4/9 session has Arthur C. Smith credited for ocarina and piccolo in the book, but I'm just hearing piccolo throughout the session. I'm guessing ocarina was tried in early rehearsals and not kept?

At some point in that first session, Brian calls out the contra clarinet by name. Maybe he misspoke, or maybe that instrument was replaced by the final take, but the assignment is based on that. What I have down as a tenor flute could well by an alto flute.

As for the 4/9 session - yes, quite possibly.

Another important note on naming conventions - within the Clarinet family now; "contra clarinet" is not really a thing -- there are contra-alto and contrabass clarinets.  Contrabass clarinets are really quite rare, even moreso than bass flutes.  If there is a clarinet lower than a bass clarinet on a BBs record, I'd expect it to be a contra-alto clarinet, which, while still relatively rare, seems more likely to even be manufactured let alone purchase-able at that time.

For a beautiful example, see: https://www.wwbw.com/Selmer-Paris-Model-40-Contra-Alto-Clarinet-620602.wwbw

And as you can see, it costs about the same as a luxury sedan.  So you have to know you're gonna use it before you take out a loan on that!
What do you make of the "contra clarinet" on the 4/9 session? On The Smile Sessions, disc 5, track 2 at 5:40, it plays some very low Bbs and Ebs during the bridge (I can't tell what octave). Then at 6:12 it plays the bass line. Is this firmly in the contra alto range?
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2020, 12:41:17 PM »

I agree about the contrabass clarinet - As with some of the other examples, the naming of certain specialized instruments like this may not have reflected what the actual definition would be.  If I would guess, I'd say it was a  more standard "bass clarinet" as they were very common outside classical orchestras because big-band arrangements used them occasionally.

I will say that there *is* a possibility for any of these more obscure specialty instruments in and around Hollywood, since some of the main uses for them were not in orchestral literature but rather in film scoring work. So there actually would be more of these among the musicians who worked on the film music circuit around LA than there may be elsewhere.

I compare it to Brian finding and hiring literally the only guy with an Electro-Theremin from the film scoring scene to play on his records, along with the guy many say was the only pedal steel and lap steel guitarist in LA who could sight-read specific notated parts on those instruments - Al Vescovo. There is a track record with Brian so the possibilities are definitely more than perhaps producers working in other areas. Who knows.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2020, 12:49:57 PM »

Speaking of flutes and Pet Sounds era tracks, I just had a listen to the first Good Vibrations session on UM, and it seems as if there's a quartet of flutes/alto flutes/piccolos on the verse (with one playing the melody, and the other three forming chords around it). However, the sessionography in the Smile book gives Bill Green a credit on contrabass clarinet, which I'm not hearing anywhere. What does the AFM contract say?

Also, the 4/9 session has Arthur C. Smith credited for ocarina and piccolo in the book, but I'm just hearing piccolo throughout the session. I'm guessing ocarina was tried in early rehearsals and not kept?

At some point in that first session, Brian calls out the contra clarinet by name. Maybe he misspoke, or maybe that instrument was replaced by the final take, but the assignment is based on that. What I have down as a tenor flute could well by an alto flute.

As for the 4/9 session - yes, quite possibly.

Another important note on naming conventions - within the Clarinet family now; "contra clarinet" is not really a thing -- there are contra-alto and contrabass clarinets.  Contrabass clarinets are really quite rare, even moreso than bass flutes.  If there is a clarinet lower than a bass clarinet on a BBs record, I'd expect it to be a contra-alto clarinet, which, while still relatively rare, seems more likely to even be manufactured let alone purchase-able at that time.

For a beautiful example, see: https://www.wwbw.com/Selmer-Paris-Model-40-Contra-Alto-Clarinet-620602.wwbw

And as you can see, it costs about the same as a luxury sedan.  So you have to know you're gonna use it before you take out a loan on that!
What do you make of the "contra clarinet" on the 4/9 session? On The Smile Sessions, disc 5, track 2 at 5:40, it plays some very low Bbs and Ebs during the bridge (I can't tell what octave). Then at 6:12 it plays the bass line. Is this firmly in the contra alto range?

I think the low low concert Gb is the lowest note a standard Contra-Alto can hit.  Of course with clarinets there's always deluxe models with extensions.  It goes lower than a bass clarinet though, certainly.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 12:50:50 PM »

All of this means, damn it, I'm going to have to rent a lot of woodwind instruments to demonstrate their use on Beach Boys records...
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SBonilla
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 05:11:55 PM »

I think contrabass clarinets are more common than you might think. I went to a city college, my alto sax playing was so bad that the instructor had me play bassoon parts on the contrabass clarinet.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 05:22:32 PM »

I think contrabass clarinets are more common than you might think. I went to a city college, my alto sax playing was so bad that the instructor had me play bassoon parts on the contrabass clarinet.

I'm sure most colleges with a music program have one for rep.
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« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2020, 12:47:33 PM »

On the issue of the bass clarinet: Photos from the GV session films showing Jay Migliori sitting next to Tommy Morgan inside Western 3, where Jay is clearly playing a bass clarinet:







Note the RCA 77 ribbon mics...
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2020, 12:49:54 PM »

Yeah, I love that film.

Jay was the low reed guy, for sure. 

I feel like the 77 was to them what the 57 is now.  They put it on everything.
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