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Author Topic: First appearance of clarinets on BBs record (and final?)  (Read 5047 times)
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« on: April 06, 2020, 03:05:09 PM »

Hello all;

Can you think of any time a clarinet was on a Beach Boys record before Pet Sounds?

And what can you think of that a clarinet was on post Smile?

Thanks!  Trying to compile a master list of clarinet parts so I can transcribe and learn them all.
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WillJC
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2020, 03:22:20 PM »

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JK
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 07:17:13 AM »

"I Went To Sleep":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSsQOfKm2y0

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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 07:37:23 AM »

Looking through the wiki credits for 15 Big Ones I see there are four clarinettists credited on "Rock And Roll Music", namely Dennis Dreith, John J. Kelson, Jr., Jack Nimitz and Mike Altschol!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzyLAfOGc4U
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2020, 08:00:45 AM »

My quick wiki search (which I regularly update to include the findings of you, c-man, and our other board experts) turns up nothing pre-Pet Sounds, adds Time to Get Alone, and I currently have nothing from 15BO other than R&RM and Had to Phone Ya.   I haven't heard all of Adult/Child yet and cannot comment on that.
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 08:18:09 AM »

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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 08:28:47 AM »

Thanks everyone.  This is lining up with my own beliefs.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2020, 08:31:49 AM »

Also,

how interesting to follow Brian's little fads.  No clarinets till Pet Sounds, and then all of a sudden they become almost de rigeur for a session. 
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2020, 09:30:17 AM »

There isn't a clarinet on Time to Get Alone, just a flute. I Went to Sleep also sounds more like an alto or bass flute than a clarinet to me.

The AFM contract for "Time To Get Alone" has Jay Migliori playing a double, and specifically credits him with Flute and Clarinet. There are several mixes of that song, including the Redwood mix eventually released on the Three Dog Night anthology set Celebrate. I seem to recall that most of the wind instruments were dropped on the mixes included on 20/20 and MIC, but I recall that the Redwood mix includes more of them, so it's possibly there. And maybe the Beach Boys' 1967 mix on Hawthorne, CA. Not really inclined to dig them out now myself, though.
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JK
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2020, 09:34:00 AM »

There isn't a clarinet on Time to Get Alone, just a flute. I Went to Sleep also sounds more like an alto or bass flute than a clarinet to me.

It almost sounds like a bass clarinet. I'll risk my reputation and stick with a member of the clarinet family. Wink
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2020, 09:36:18 AM »

There isn't a clarinet on Time to Get Alone, just a flute. I Went to Sleep also sounds more like an alto or bass flute than a clarinet to me.

It almost sounds like a bass clarinet. I'll risk my reputation and stick with a member of the clarinet family. Wink

Well, the 20/20 and MIC mixes include what I believe is a Mellophonium...but that sounds altogether different. EDIT: just realized you're referring to "I Went To Sleep", not "TTGA". But to me, "I Went To Sleep" sounds more alto or bass flute-ish. And, the track sheet for that is labeled "Flute".
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020, 09:48:10 AM »


I think the R&R Music credit in the liner notes is an error - I only hear saxes on each of the four mixes, and the same liners credit two of the woodwinds players with 'clavinets' on It's OK (obviously a clarinet typo) when there are none on that either. They also miss the clarinets on That Same Song, presumably played by Steve Douglas and Jay Migliori alongside their sax parts.

Yeah, I've always thought that the "R&R Music" credit for clarinets must be an error, likewise "clavinets" on "It's OK" is clearly a typo. As for "That Same Song" - there are two AFM contracts for that - one is the basic track, which has Steve and Jay both down for saxes, then an overdub contract from the following day that has Jay down for clarinet, but Steve down for sax again - wonder if that's a typo? Do you hear TWO clarinets on that track? Interestingly, an early version of Al's decades-spanning masterpiece "Don't Fight The Sea" was also recorded at those two sessions, according to the contract - and THAT apparently featured saxes, clarinet(s), and violins, as well.
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2020, 09:49:00 AM »

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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2020, 09:57:46 AM »

There isn't a clarinet on Time to Get Alone, just a flute. I Went to Sleep also sounds more like an alto or bass flute than a clarinet to me.

It almost sounds like a bass clarinet. I'll risk my reputation and stick with a member of the clarinet family. Wink

Well, the 20/20 and MIC mixes include what I believe is a Mellophonium...but that sounds altogether different. EDIT: just realized you're referring to "I Went To Sleep", not "TTGA". But to me, "I Went To Sleep" sounds more alto or bass flute-ish. And, the track sheet for that is labeled "Flute".


Alto Flute almost for certain.  Although, C-Man, is there any indication of the identity of the Flautist?  I doubt a reedman like Steve or Jay would shell out for a bass flute, since the repertoire is (and was) fairly limited, but a true flute player might have a bass flute for gigs like "The Jungle Book"  or whatever.
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2020, 09:59:34 AM »

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c-man
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2020, 10:10:56 AM »

There isn't a clarinet on Time to Get Alone, just a flute. I Went to Sleep also sounds more like an alto or bass flute than a clarinet to me.

It almost sounds like a bass clarinet. I'll risk my reputation and stick with a member of the clarinet family. Wink

Well, the 20/20 and MIC mixes include what I believe is a Mellophonium...but that sounds altogether different. EDIT: just realized you're referring to "I Went To Sleep", not "TTGA". But to me, "I Went To Sleep" sounds more alto or bass flute-ish. And, the track sheet for that is labeled "Flute".


Alto Flute almost for certain.  Although, C-Man, is there any indication of the identity of the Flautist?  I doubt a reedman like Steve or Jay would shell out for a bass flute, since the repertoire is (and was) fairly limited, but a true flute player might have a bass flute for gigs like "The Jungle Book"  or whatever.

Per the AFM contract, the flautist on "IWTS" is Jay. I should mention that the track sheet also indicates the presence of a Mellotron (which we decided would have actually been a Chamberlin). Not sure of the sound that was utilized for, but perhaps Jay played an alto and the Chamberlin produced the bass flute sound? Or maybe the Chamberlin was only used for the bird sounds in the middle?

What about "Caroline, No"? Are you just hearing alto flute there, or bass flute, too? The contract for that one credits Bill Green with "flute" and "bass flute", but also lists Jay, Jim Horn, and Plas Johnson, with no indication as to what they're playing (plus Steve, but we know from the session tape that he's playing percussion on the basic track not a reed instrument).
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2020, 10:19:26 AM »

Well, the interesting thing about Alto and Bass flutes--or rather, the interesting things about them: one, what we now call a bass flute actually occupies the slot that should be called a tenor flute, in terms of the compass scheme of the flute family.  But because the tenor flute is its own bizarre thing that bucks the taxonomy system, it works out that way.

And then to make matters more confusing, the anglo-american firmament's name for what we'd now call the Alto Flute in G was "bass flute," agaion because of the sort of messed up taxonomy of the flute family, and the extreme rarity of the true bass flute.

In other words, the AF of M sheet -fill-outer might have known the Alto flute in G as a "bass flute" and notated that as such.  I don't think that any of the flute parts in "C, No" drops below the playable range of an Alto in G - so if it was a true bass flute, it'd be cognizable as such only by very subtle timbral difference...


Also - how funny that Steve Douglas became a professional auxilliary percussionist and bass-note piano player for Brian.
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2020, 10:19:35 AM »

Most people who hear a low flute part seem to assume it's a bass flute, when it's 99% of the time an alto flute. There are very few recorded bass flute parts in popular music (jazz, pop, etc...) because the instrument is not very agile at all. The only person who may have used one more than the norm in jazz or pop would have been Henry Mancini because he was a flute player himself and knew the instrument, and could write for it - Just like Nelson Riddle's classic arrangements often feature terrific and very technical trombone sectionals because Riddle himself was a trombonist and knew how to write for them. You hear all kinds of flutes from piccolo down to bass playing on Mancini's "Peter Gunn" music, both the studio albums and the soundtrack to the TV show itself (they were different sessions).

But apart from that, unless it's documented, I'd assume if you hear a low flute sound it was an alto flute.

Bass clarinet is a different story. Most working sax players had at least an Eb and Bb standard clarinet in their road cases for "doubles" on both session and big-band gigs. Some of the tenor or bari players would have had a bass clarinet too as a double. You hear a lot of bass clarinet on early-period Duke Ellington charts. In fact, that GV session film footage actually shows a bass clarinet being played if I remember, I think I took a screenshot of it when that footage first aired on PBS. So obviously bass clarinet was both available and used on Brian's sessions - Like alto flute, if you hear that low reed sound, it's most likely bass clarinet.

As far as availability - Most working reed players had multiple clarinets and saxes, and if they switched instruments on a session, they could invoice it as a "double" and get paid for both instruments. Good motivation to have them, I'd say.
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2020, 10:21:41 AM »

Would there happen to be any clarinets on the tag of Summer's Gone?
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2020, 10:26:06 AM »

Also - how funny that Steve Douglas became a professional auxilliary percussionist and bass-note piano player for Brian.

You could interpret that as either "easy money" or Brian giving Steve a gift for all the work he did on those sessions earlier. Steve would get paid the same if he hit finger cymbals for three beats in a chorus as he would for playing a full sax chart, and if he moved to tambourine he could submit that as a double and get paid even more.

That was one of the ways musicians got their "bonus" back in the day. Brian was known in the industry as being very generous with his musicians, while other producers had a very bad rep on the opposite end of the generosity spectrum to where certain musicians refused to work sessions for those people who were very "tight" in the budget. Brian would deliberately run sessions a few minutes over the clock so the musicians would get paid for the next hour without having to play. Good guy.
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2020, 10:32:59 AM »

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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2020, 10:40:57 AM »

It could have been a misprint where the much more common alto flute was played, or they could have legit been using a tenor flute. I chalk it up to whoever wrote out the session sheet being told it was a tenor flute or assuming it was even though it could have been an alto and more likely was an alto. Again, there just weren't many tenor or bass flutes being used unless it was a Mancini session lol. Chalk it up as well to the slang terms of the day, like people still calling an electric bass a "Fender Bass", slang which dates back to the 50's.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2020, 10:42:12 AM »

Also - how funny that Steve Douglas became a professional auxilliary percussionist and bass-note piano player for Brian.

You could interpret that as either "easy money" or Brian giving Steve a gift for all the work he did on those sessions earlier. Steve would get paid the same if he hit finger cymbals for three beats in a chorus as he would for playing a full sax chart, and if he moved to tambourine he could submit that as a double and get paid even more.

That was one of the ways musicians got their "bonus" back in the day. Brian was known in the industry as being very generous with his musicians, while other producers had a very bad rep on the opposite end of the generosity spectrum to where certain musicians refused to work sessions for those people who were very "tight" in the budget. Brian would deliberately run sessions a few minutes over the clock so the musicians would get paid for the next hour without having to play. Good guy.

Steve was moving into being more of an exec at that time, and was contracting a lot of the sessions.  Certainly an easy way for Brian to say thanks, without requiring a lot more of effort from the guy.  Steve is one of those guys who clearly enjoyed Brian's company and Brian his.
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2020, 10:44:48 AM »


Per the AFM contract, the flautist on "IWTS" is Jay. I should mention that the track sheet also indicates the presence of a Mellotron (which we decided would have actually been a Chamberlin). Not sure of the sound that was utilized for, but perhaps Jay played an alto and the Chamberlin produced the bass flute sound? Or maybe the Chamberlin was only used for the bird sounds in the middle?


I think the Chamberlin on that is responsible for both the high flute sound and the birds. The low, real one should be within range on an alto.

Since we're talking woodwinds, any thoughts on the 'tenor flute' mentions that show up on some of the AFM contracts? Did the session musicians actually ever use tenor flutes or is it more likely that they played either c-flutes or altos and that's just a weirdly consistent paperwork error?


I think it'd have to be just a sort of loose use of the word.
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2020, 10:49:44 AM »

OK, so the lower flute on Caroline actually does have to be a bass flute--it goes down below the Alto Flute's compass.

So I'm thinking the lineup is:

1 concert flute, 2 altos, and a bass?
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