gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
665850 Posts in 26701 Topics by 3824 Members - Latest Member: DingDangIsTheGreatestSong January 23, 2021, 02:43:40 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: You Still Believe in Me - multitrack layout  (Read 1669 times)
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« on: April 10, 2020, 08:48:16 AM »

So YSBIM's basic track was recorded to three tracks of a four track tape, then an overdub was captured on the 4th track.  That is my understanding, at least.

Does it seem to you like the guitars maybe got their own track?  On UM SOT's presentation of the multitrack master, the guitars are fairly hard left with the harpsichord overdub, seemingly unmoored from the rest of the track (although the basic track harpsichord might be on there too).  But on Mark's remix, the guitars are mixed more centrally within the band.

Thoughts?
Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4793


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2020, 09:07:12 AM »

So YSBIM's basic track was recorded to three tracks of a four track tape, then an overdub was captured on the 4th track.  That is my understanding, at least.

Does it seem to you like the guitars maybe got their own track?  On UM SOT's presentation of the multitrack master, the guitars are fairly hard left with the harpsichord overdub, seemingly unmoored from the rest of the track (although the basic track harpsichord might be on there too).  But on Mark's remix, the guitars are mixed more centrally within the band.

Thoughts?

1 - Basic Track 1 (including basic guitars)
2 - O/D guitars & harpsichord, possibly more piano
3 - Basic Track 2 (clarinets)

EDIT: this is based on track sheet notation, which doesn't mention a fourth track on the 1st generation tape.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 09:10:12 AM by c-man » Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2020, 09:22:30 AM »

I donít believe anything other than harpsichord was overdubbed.  When I isolate the overdubbed track, thereís nothing on it aside from harpsichord.
Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2020, 09:35:51 AM »

Also, at least for part of the basic session they are definitely recording to three tracks because the finger cymbals are hard left (on UM) the band is C, and the clarinets are hard right.
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2020, 09:46:59 AM »

I don't think the piano was doubled, but the guitars definitely were with the harpsichord. The track layout changed throughout the session until the final takes were on two: rhythm track on one, clarinets and sound effects on three, with a lot of bleed from the left hand of the piano, upright bass and percussion.

UM Vol 13 disk 1, track 3 has the overdub left, rhythm centre, and clarinets and bicycle stuff right. Maybe you were hearing it that way because the centre channel's pretty quiet but there are guitars on both.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 09:48:20 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2020, 09:59:14 AM »

I don't think the piano was doubled, but the guitars definitely were with the harpsichord. The track layout changed throughout the session until the final takes were on two: rhythm track on one, clarinets and sound effects on three, with a lot of bleed from the left hand of the piano, upright bass and percussion.

UM Vol 13 disk 1, track 3 has the overdub left, rhythm centre, and clarinets and bicycle stuff right. Maybe you were hearing it that way because the centre channel's pretty quiet but there are guitars on both.

Disagree.
Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2020, 10:05:31 AM »

I think you are hearing "guitars" on the overdub because the harpsichord broadly outlines the guitar line.
Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4793


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2020, 10:07:14 AM »

Barney, Glen, Al (de Lory), and Steve (plus Chuck) were all paid overtime on this session. Steve was playing piano, but his overtime pay could be explained by the fact that he was the official AFM "session leader", and as such, was perhaps required to stay until the very end, even if he wasn't playing anything in the overtime. De Lory overdubbed extra harpsichord, so his overtime pay makes sense. As for Barney and Glen - could it be that their parts were on their own discrete track throughout the session, but in the end, Brian had them stay behind and redo their parts, replacing the original guitars as an overdub (with Al D's overdubbed harpsichord mixed into the same track)?
Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2020, 10:16:24 AM »

Possible...

Listen to the difference between UM disc 1 and Mark's track mix.

UM:

L - Harpsichord overdub, guitars
C - F and S basses, Piano, harpsichord, percussion
R - Flutes, leak from percussion


Mark's mix:

L - Band
Left Center - Guitars
Dead center - Flutes, seemingly percussion
R - overdub

Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2020, 10:25:49 AM »

The overtime pay does speak to them being there for an overdub...  I find the whole thing very confusing.

It's almost as if the guitar part got multed to every track -- it's definitely all over everything which is especially strange since they're going direct.
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2020, 10:41:06 AM »

This is the right channel only from Unsurpassed Masters, feat tracks 1 & 3: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MprIFIsFT4uvHmmI-DM_1c9cmS8eeHcs/view?usp=sharing

Track 1's quiet when folded down this way, but those guitars are in the centre locked to the other basic track instruments and panned to the left with them in Mark's mix. There's no bleed from anything other than the two basic track slots happening here. The other later takes elsewhere on UM are exactly the same.

And this is the centre phased out, leaving only the track 2 overdub and track 3: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10KyufEABDnvK5e-XbfdzgKMLAEgLrEnF/view?usp=sharing

These guitars aren't the same performance as the ones on the basic track and you can tell by A&Bing them. They're there if you solo the right channel of Mark's mix (prominently too, not from bleed on the left) and if you solo one of the 5.1 tracks. Mark's mix blends the stereo image a bit with reverb. Telling ya, doubled with the harpsichord. Three tracks only like Craig said.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 10:45:38 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4793


View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2020, 10:51:55 AM »

Possible...

Listen to the difference between UM disc 1 and Mark's track mix.

UM:

L - Harpsichord overdub, guitars
C - F and S basses, Piano, harpsichord, percussion
R - Flutes, leak from percussion


Mark's mix:

L - Band
Left Center - Guitars
Dead center - Flutes, seemingly percussion
R - overdub



"Flutes"?  Don't you mean "Clarinets"?  Smiley
Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2020, 10:53:09 AM »

Something's fishy about it.  I may very well be wrong, but whatever the case may be I still feel as though there is something weird afoot.  It's probably just the years of psychosomatic sublimation of my autistic desire to hear the isolated tracks finally turning me into a crazy person.  Banging one's head against a wall for a couple decades will do that.

Yes, Clarinets.  It's official, I'm done for.
Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2020, 11:01:30 AM »

Can we at least agree that Steve got free money for "contracting" the overdub sesh?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:10:15 AM by aeijtzsche » Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4793


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2020, 11:07:08 AM »

Can we at least agree that Steve got free money for "contracting the overdub sesh?

Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM". But yeah, same principle as on the "Do You Wanna Dance?" overdub - for that session, Steve was the "contractor", but stayed for the overdub, I'm sure, due to union rules, even though he wasn't playing anything. Yep, I'll agree with you there!
Logged
SaltyMarshmallow
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2020, 11:09:16 AM »

Bonus: First few bars from the 5.1 mix with tracks 1 & 3 only and then tracks 2 & 3 only back to back (with Brian's vocal) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dsSGON8LSM1w_NXhuTYr09gnDoBrSgBm/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:10:12 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2020, 11:11:51 AM »


Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM"

It has....not been a good day for me, accuracy wise!   Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9234


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2020, 11:14:32 AM »

Can we at least agree that Steve got free money for "contracting the overdub sesh?

Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM". But yeah, same principle as on the "Do You Wanna Dance?" overdub - for that session, Steve was the "contractor", but stayed for the overdub, I'm sure, due to union rules, even though he wasn't playing anything. Yep, I'll agree with you there!

I think this is just another example of the "bonus" that could be given to musicians pretty much at will, and some producers like Brian for one could be much more generous and less worried about budgets or bottom lines than others.

Not quite related...but I was made aware of more of these practices with less goodwill and more greed involved when someone "in the biz" revealed a few record company tricks to me years ago. One was an exec who was also able to submit union contracts, who would drop in on "his artists" while they were recording, suggest a part, have the engineer open up a track where he'd "sing" the part on tape...then his "part" would show up on the band's bill for the studio session(s) as if he was a studio musician. He'd get a separate check which would come out of the band's budget even though the part never made it to the mix.

Another was an exec who would "celebrate" an artist's finishing a session by ordering lavish catering spreads and drinks, which the band and staff and guests would all partake in the celebration, only to see the full charges for the exec's generosity show up on their balance due in their bill from the label for the studio sessions.

So yeah, all that happens lol.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4793


View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2020, 11:21:13 AM »


Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM"

It has....not been a good day for me, accuracy wise!   Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry

'tis OK, aeijtzsche - we've all been there!  Like you say, these things can drive one crazy, so remember to breathe! Smiley
Logged
All Summer Long
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 391



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2020, 08:05:59 PM »

Something's fishy about it.  I may very well be wrong, but whatever the case may be I still feel as though there is something weird afoot.  It's probably just the years of psychosomatic sublimation of my autistic desire to hear the isolated tracks finally turning me into a crazy person.  Banging one's head against a wall for a couple decades will do that.


Please donít lose it, aejitzsche. Loving the videos and enjoying trying to learn some of the guitar parts.
Logged
aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2967



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2020, 09:44:45 PM »

So here's the thing though, and help me out because I am very stupid at this point.

It's clear that there was an overdub of guitars and another harpsichord.  But I still don't get what's going on with the tracks.  If you OOPS the SOT and OOPS Mark's track mix, you get the same harpsichord on both but different guitar performances for each OOPS session.  I know there's no indication of it on the paperwork couldn't they have done the basic track to two tracks in the end, and then overdubbed new guitars on track three, and the harpsichord on track 4?  Then dub that to mono for the new 4 track? 
Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.242 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!