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667795 Posts in 26843 Topics by 3890 Members - Latest Member: Hails1 April 17, 2021, 06:41:20 AM
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Author Topic: You Still Believe in Me - multitrack layout  (Read 2008 times)
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« on: April 10, 2020, 08:48:16 AM »

So YSBIM's basic track was recorded to three tracks of a four track tape, then an overdub was captured on the 4th track.  That is my understanding, at least.

Does it seem to you like the guitars maybe got their own track?  On UM SOT's presentation of the multitrack master, the guitars are fairly hard left with the harpsichord overdub, seemingly unmoored from the rest of the track (although the basic track harpsichord might be on there too).  But on Mark's remix, the guitars are mixed more centrally within the band.

Thoughts?
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c-man
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2020, 09:07:12 AM »

So YSBIM's basic track was recorded to three tracks of a four track tape, then an overdub was captured on the 4th track.  That is my understanding, at least.

Does it seem to you like the guitars maybe got their own track?  On UM SOT's presentation of the multitrack master, the guitars are fairly hard left with the harpsichord overdub, seemingly unmoored from the rest of the track (although the basic track harpsichord might be on there too).  But on Mark's remix, the guitars are mixed more centrally within the band.

Thoughts?

1 - Basic Track 1 (including basic guitars)
2 - O/D guitars & harpsichord, possibly more piano
3 - Basic Track 2 (clarinets)

EDIT: this is based on track sheet notation, which doesn't mention a fourth track on the 1st generation tape.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 09:10:12 AM by c-man » Logged
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2020, 09:22:30 AM »

I donít believe anything other than harpsichord was overdubbed.  When I isolate the overdubbed track, thereís nothing on it aside from harpsichord.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2020, 09:35:51 AM »

Also, at least for part of the basic session they are definitely recording to three tracks because the finger cymbals are hard left (on UM) the band is C, and the clarinets are hard right.
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2020, 09:46:59 AM »

.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 08:22:48 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2020, 09:59:14 AM »

I don't think the piano was doubled, but the guitars definitely were with the harpsichord. The track layout changed throughout the session until the final takes were on two: rhythm track on one, clarinets and sound effects on three, with a lot of bleed from the left hand of the piano, upright bass and percussion.

UM Vol 13 disk 1, track 3 has the overdub left, rhythm centre, and clarinets and bicycle stuff right. Maybe you were hearing it that way because the centre channel's pretty quiet but there are guitars on both.

Disagree.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2020, 10:05:31 AM »

I think you are hearing "guitars" on the overdub because the harpsichord broadly outlines the guitar line.
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c-man
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2020, 10:07:14 AM »

Barney, Glen, Al (de Lory), and Steve (plus Chuck) were all paid overtime on this session. Steve was playing piano, but his overtime pay could be explained by the fact that he was the official AFM "session leader", and as such, was perhaps required to stay until the very end, even if he wasn't playing anything in the overtime. De Lory overdubbed extra harpsichord, so his overtime pay makes sense. As for Barney and Glen - could it be that their parts were on their own discrete track throughout the session, but in the end, Brian had them stay behind and redo their parts, replacing the original guitars as an overdub (with Al D's overdubbed harpsichord mixed into the same track)?
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2020, 10:16:24 AM »

Possible...

Listen to the difference between UM disc 1 and Mark's track mix.

UM:

L - Harpsichord overdub, guitars
C - F and S basses, Piano, harpsichord, percussion
R - Flutes, leak from percussion


Mark's mix:

L - Band
Left Center - Guitars
Dead center - Flutes, seemingly percussion
R - overdub

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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2020, 10:25:49 AM »

The overtime pay does speak to them being there for an overdub...  I find the whole thing very confusing.

It's almost as if the guitar part got multed to every track -- it's definitely all over everything which is especially strange since they're going direct.
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2020, 10:41:06 AM »

.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 08:22:39 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
c-man
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2020, 10:51:55 AM »

Possible...

Listen to the difference between UM disc 1 and Mark's track mix.

UM:

L - Harpsichord overdub, guitars
C - F and S basses, Piano, harpsichord, percussion
R - Flutes, leak from percussion


Mark's mix:

L - Band
Left Center - Guitars
Dead center - Flutes, seemingly percussion
R - overdub



"Flutes"?  Don't you mean "Clarinets"?  Smiley
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2020, 10:53:09 AM »

Something's fishy about it.  I may very well be wrong, but whatever the case may be I still feel as though there is something weird afoot.  It's probably just the years of psychosomatic sublimation of my autistic desire to hear the isolated tracks finally turning me into a crazy person.  Banging one's head against a wall for a couple decades will do that.

Yes, Clarinets.  It's official, I'm done for.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2020, 11:01:30 AM »

Can we at least agree that Steve got free money for "contracting" the overdub sesh?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 11:10:15 AM by aeijtzsche » Logged
c-man
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2020, 11:07:08 AM »

Can we at least agree that Steve got free money for "contracting the overdub sesh?

Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM". But yeah, same principle as on the "Do You Wanna Dance?" overdub - for that session, Steve was the "contractor", but stayed for the overdub, I'm sure, due to union rules, even though he wasn't playing anything. Yep, I'll agree with you there!
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SaltyMarshmallow
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2020, 11:09:16 AM »

.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 08:19:39 AM by SaltyMarshmallow » Logged
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2020, 11:11:51 AM »


Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM"

It has....not been a good day for me, accuracy wise!   Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2020, 11:14:32 AM »

Can we at least agree that Steve got free money for "contracting the overdub sesh?

Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM". But yeah, same principle as on the "Do You Wanna Dance?" overdub - for that session, Steve was the "contractor", but stayed for the overdub, I'm sure, due to union rules, even though he wasn't playing anything. Yep, I'll agree with you there!

I think this is just another example of the "bonus" that could be given to musicians pretty much at will, and some producers like Brian for one could be much more generous and less worried about budgets or bottom lines than others.

Not quite related...but I was made aware of more of these practices with less goodwill and more greed involved when someone "in the biz" revealed a few record company tricks to me years ago. One was an exec who was also able to submit union contracts, who would drop in on "his artists" while they were recording, suggest a part, have the engineer open up a track where he'd "sing" the part on tape...then his "part" would show up on the band's bill for the studio session(s) as if he was a studio musician. He'd get a separate check which would come out of the band's budget even though the part never made it to the mix.

Another was an exec who would "celebrate" an artist's finishing a session by ordering lavish catering spreads and drinks, which the band and staff and guests would all partake in the celebration, only to see the full charges for the exec's generosity show up on their balance due in their bill from the label for the studio sessions.

So yeah, all that happens lol.
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c-man
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2020, 11:21:13 AM »


Well, technically, Chuck was the "contractor" and Steve was the "session leader" on "My Childhood"/"YSBIM"

It has....not been a good day for me, accuracy wise!   Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry

'tis OK, aeijtzsche - we've all been there!  Like you say, these things can drive one crazy, so remember to breathe! Smiley
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2020, 08:05:59 PM »

Something's fishy about it.  I may very well be wrong, but whatever the case may be I still feel as though there is something weird afoot.  It's probably just the years of psychosomatic sublimation of my autistic desire to hear the isolated tracks finally turning me into a crazy person.  Banging one's head against a wall for a couple decades will do that.


Please donít lose it, aejitzsche. Loving the videos and enjoying trying to learn some of the guitar parts.
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2020, 09:44:45 PM »

So here's the thing though, and help me out because I am very stupid at this point.

It's clear that there was an overdub of guitars and another harpsichord.  But I still don't get what's going on with the tracks.  If you OOPS the SOT and OOPS Mark's track mix, you get the same harpsichord on both but different guitar performances for each OOPS session.  I know there's no indication of it on the paperwork couldn't they have done the basic track to two tracks in the end, and then overdubbed new guitars on track three, and the harpsichord on track 4?  Then dub that to mono for the new 4 track? 
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