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Author Topic: If Sunflower was a double album...  (Read 1511 times)
The Nearest Faraway Place
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« on: February 12, 2020, 08:33:56 PM »

So, itís well known that over 40 songs were recorded between 20/20 and Sunflower, and that it went through several different track lists before the version we all know. But, my thought was, what if the BBs put out a double album, White Album style?
Heres my proposed track list, and Iím keeping the original album title because Iíve always liked it more than Sunflower. P.S, Iíve listened to it in this order, and it flows nicely.

Add Some Music:
An Album Offering From The Beach Boys
Side A:
1: Slip On Through
2: This Whole World
3: Add Some Music to Your Day
4: Our Sweet Love
5: Deirdre
6: It's About Time

Side B:
1: Susie Cincinnati
2: San Miguel
3: Games Two Can Play
4: I Just Got My Pay
5: H.E.L.P. Is On the Way
6: Cotton Fields (The Cotton Song) [1970 Version]

Side C:
1: Break Away
2: Take a Load Off Your Feet
3: Loop De Loop (Flip Flop Flyin' In an Aeroplane)
4: Got to Know the Woman
5: Good Time
6: Celebrate the News

Side D:
1: Soulful Old Man Shunshine
2: At My Window
3: Cool, Cool, Water (1967 Version thats 2:08 long)
4: Tears In the Morning
5: All I Wanna Do
6: Forever
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 09:37:43 PM by The Nearest Faraway Place » Logged
Matt Bielewicz
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2020, 11:35:32 PM »

Well, let the disagreements begin, because of course everyone likes different things from this period (and of course, that's fine!).

I used to work in an office full of music-lovers and when we were bored on rainy lunchtimes we would play 'The White Album game'. You probably know it: the idea is, the Beatles' producer George Martin has heard all the tracks recorded during the White Album sessions, but thinks that there's too much schlock to put it all out as a double album. He suggests cutting it down to an absolutely killer one-disc album with all the best tracks, no filler, keeping some of the better second-grade tracks for single B-sides, and just slamming some of them in the deep freeze and never letting them be released. Your job is to propose what the one-disc tracklist should be, what should be cut, and what might still make it out as B-sides.

(As many people may know here, up to the point where you decide the one-disc tracklist, that is ACTUALLY what happened as the Beatles prepared to assemble the line-up for what became the White Album. But none of the Beatles could agree on one single one-disc tracklist in accordance with George M's suggestion... and in the end Martin couldn't be bothered to fight for one, either, in the increasingly fractious mood of the era... so pretty much EVERYTHING went on the album... and that's how we got the White Album.)

Anyway, the point is: when we played the game, NOBODY'S line-up was the same. There were some versions of the proposed single-disc White Album that I thought were bizarre in the extreme... and my colleagues, in turn, thought my choices were completely out to lunch. This taught me that people have very varied tastes and the things you think make an album great often don't resonate with others in any way.

Why am I recounting all this? Well, firstly, to introduce the White Album game to anyone who hasn't heard of it before (if you're into music and have some friends to chat to and time to kill, it's a great way to spend a lively hour or two of discussion...) and secondly to explain why nobody should be surprised to read that I don't like some of this Add Some Music line-up. Granted, this is the polar opposite to the White Album game, in that instead of cutting a double album down to a single, we're supposed to blow a single up to a double, but still...

I feel about this like I feel about those SMiLE mixes that incorporate every last scrap and fragment, in a way that would never have happened if Brian had ever finished the album. There are nearly always more tracks recorded during album sessions than will be used, bits the artist maybe initially thinks are going to fit but ultimately don't and are excluded. That's creativity and the creative process at work. Some of those, it seems to me, are fun workouts in the studio that are obviously of lower quality than the rest of the stuff, and will make B-sides at most, or just be canned altogether. Occasionally, if there's something really good in the idea but it happens not to fit THAT album, a  track might get reworked for a future release. But some tracks are just born for lesser things, it seems to me.

In my opinion, Tracks B3 - B5 of the proposed line-up fall into that category. They're fun to hear as examples of what the group was doing in the studio at the time, but they're B-grade material at best and would never have made it onto an album. And if they did, that album would be widely slated as one of those 'sprawling, over-long 70's double albums that should have been edited down to a single disc'.

I say that knowing that somewhere out there, there will be fans whose single favourite Beach Boys track is H.E.L.P Is On The Way...! And that they will disagree with me strongly...!

Perhaps that's why, generally speaking, I don't go for these fantasy releases that include the kitchen sink. A list of everything recorded during album sessions does not usually make a strong album that you actually want to listen to.

Or perhaps that's just me.

OK, so having said all this, I should still play the game. A double-album Sunflower? I'll go for this (and I would just continue to call it Sunflower... Add Some Music, is, to me, a hokey name for an album that was rightfully replaced):

Slip On Through
This Whole World
Add Some Music
Deirdre
It's About Time

Lady/Fallin' In Love
Susie Cincinatti
San Miguel
All I Wanna Do
Til I Die

Soulful Old Man Sunshine
Loop De Loop
Our Sweet Love
Big Sur
Celebrate The News

Tears In The Morning
Break Away
I'm Going Your Way
Cool Cool Water (short 1967 version from 1993 boxed set)
Forever

No 'Gotta Know The Woman'... one of Dennis's weaker tracks, for me. No 'At My Window' either. Both of those make great B-sides but aren't album strength in my book. But that's probably just me...

Oh, and, obviously, I don't have the dislike for Bruce's 'Tears...' that some fans do it seems.
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2020, 03:38:51 AM »

Well, let the disagreements begin, because of course everyone likes different things from this period (and of course, that's fine!).

I used to work in an office full of music-lovers and when we were bored on rainy lunchtimes we would play 'The White Album game'. You probably know it: the idea is, the Beatles' producer George Martin has heard all the tracks recorded during the White Album sessions, but thinks that there's too much schlock to put it all out as a double album. He suggests cutting it down to an absolutely killer one-disc album with all the best tracks, no filler, keeping some of the better second-grade tracks for single B-sides, and just slamming some of them in the deep freeze and never letting them be released. Your job is to propose what the one-disc tracklist should be, what should be cut, and what might still make it out as B-sides.

(As many people may know here, up to the point where you decide the one-disc tracklist, that is ACTUALLY what happened as the Beatles prepared to assemble the line-up for what became the White Album. But none of the Beatles could agree on one single one-disc tracklist in accordance with George M's suggestion... and in the end Martin couldn't be bothered to fight for one, either, in the increasingly fractious mood of the era... so pretty much EVERYTHING went on the album... and that's how we got the White Album.)

Anyway, the point is: when we played the game, NOBODY'S line-up was the same. There were some versions of the proposed single-disc White Album that I thought were bizarre in the extreme... and my colleagues, in turn, thought my choices were completely out to lunch. This taught me that people have very varied tastes and the things you think make an album great often don't resonate with others in any way.

Why am I recounting all this? Well, firstly, to introduce the White Album game to anyone who hasn't heard of it before (if you're into music and have some friends to chat to and time to kill, it's a great way to spend a lively hour or two of discussion...) and secondly to explain why nobody should be surprised to read that I don't like some of this Add Some Music line-up. Granted, this is the polar opposite to the White Album game, in that instead of cutting a double album down to a single, we're supposed to blow a single up to a double, but still...

I feel about this like I feel about those SMiLE mixes that incorporate every last scrap and fragment, in a way that would never have happened if Brian had ever finished the album. There are nearly always more tracks recorded during album sessions than will be used, bits the artist maybe initially thinks are going to fit but ultimately don't and are excluded. That's creativity and the creative process at work. Some of those, it seems to me, are fun workouts in the studio that are obviously of lower quality than the rest of the stuff, and will make B-sides at most, or just be canned altogether. Occasionally, if there's something really good in the idea but it happens not to fit THAT album, a  track might get reworked for a future release. But some tracks are just born for lesser things, it seems to me.

In my opinion, Tracks B3 - B5 of the proposed line-up fall into that category. They're fun to hear as examples of what the group was doing in the studio at the time, but they're B-grade material at best and would never have made it onto an album. And if they did, that album would be widely slated as one of those 'sprawling, over-long 70's double albums that should have been edited down to a single disc'.

I say that knowing that somewhere out there, there will be fans whose single favourite Beach Boys track is H.E.L.P Is On The Way...! And that they will disagree with me strongly...!

Perhaps that's why, generally speaking, I don't go for these fantasy releases that include the kitchen sink. A list of everything recorded during album sessions does not usually make a strong album that you actually want to listen to.

Or perhaps that's just me.

OK, so having said all this, I should still play the game. A double-album Sunflower? I'll go for this (and I would just continue to call it Sunflower... Add Some Music, is, to me, a hokey name for an album that was rightfully replaced):

Slip On Through
This Whole World
Add Some Music
Deirdre
It's About Time

Lady/Fallin' In Love
Susie Cincinatti
San Miguel
All I Wanna Do
Til I Die

Soulful Old Man Sunshine
Loop De Loop
Our Sweet Love
Big Sur
Celebrate The News

Tears In The Morning
Break Away
I'm Going Your Way
Cool Cool Water (short 1967 version from 1993 boxed set)
Forever

No 'Gotta Know The Woman'... one of Dennis's weaker tracks, for me. No 'At My Window' either. Both of those make great B-sides but aren't album strength in my book. But that's probably just me...

Oh, and, obviously, I don't have the dislike for Bruce's 'Tears...' that some fans do it seems.
Well, I chose most of the tracks from the actual album, the 3 other versions that were submitted to Warner Brothers, and anything before July 1970. The entire reason I did this is because WB rejected all the different versions.
Also, a lot of people donít know this, but there was originally going to be 2 different albums, one for capital and one for WB, with 2 different track lists. Iíll post them if i can find them...
The WB album was called Add Some Music
Side A:
1: Susie Cincinnati
2: Good Time
3: Our Sweet Love
4: Tears in the Morning
5: When Girls Get Together
6: Slip On Through

Side B:
1: Add Some Music to Your Day
2: Take a Load Off Your Feet, Pete
3: This Whole World
4: I Just Got My Pay
5. At My Window
6: Fallin' in Love

Then the capital album was basically leftovers, and an odd B side from 1963.

Reverberation
Side A:
1: Cottonfields (single version)
2:Loop de Loop
3: All I Wanna Do
4: Got to Know the Woman
5: When Girls Get Together (track only)

Side B:
1: Break Away
2: San Miguel
3: Celebrate the News
4: Deirdre
5: The Lord's Prayer
6: Forever
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 03:57:37 AM by The Nearest Faraway Place » Logged
MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 09:22:39 AM »

Whatever the hypothetical lineup, Break Away would have been a great way to open an album side.

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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 07:05:35 PM »

I wouldn't change a thing about Sunflower - I think it's perfect as it is. Although I did see an import copy years ago that added Breakaway - and that was fine with me.

Now, if it's okay to do so here, this would be my white album:
Back in the USSR
Dear Prudence
Glass Onion
While My Guitar Gently Weeps
Martha My Dear
I'm So Tired
Blackbird
Piggies
I Will
Julia
Yer Blues
Mother Nature's Son
Long, Long, Long
Revolution 1
Honey Pie
Savoy Truffle
Cry Baby Cry

it's still a bloody freaking long album!
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 07:52:31 PM »

I wouldn't change a thing about Sunflower - I think it's perfect as it is. Although I did see an import copy years ago that added Breakaway - and that was fine with me.

Now, if it's okay to do so here, this would be my white album:
Back in the USSR
Dear Prudence
Glass Onion
While My Guitar Gently Weeps
Martha My Dear
I'm So Tired
Blackbird
Piggies
I Will
Julia
Yer Blues
Mother Nature's Son
Long, Long, Long
Revolution 1
Honey Pie
Savoy Truffle
Cry Baby Cry

it's still a bloody freaking long album!

Mine is:
Back In the U.S.S.R.
Dear Prudence
While My Guitar Gently Weeps
Happiness Is a Warm Gun
I'm So Tired
Blackbird
Rocky Raccoon
Julia

Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey
Helter Skelter
Long, Long, Long
Revolution 1
Cry Baby Cry
Revolution 9
Good Night
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William Bowe
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 10:40:02 PM »

The idea here is for a sweet side, a Dennis side, a goofy side (all the songs the record company didn't like) and an Americana/Brian-as-artist side.

This Whole World
Add Some Music to Your Day
Our Sweet Love
All I Wanna Do
Deirdre

San Miguel
Forever
Celebrate The News
Lady
It's About Time

Loop de Loop
Good Time
HELP Is On The Way
I Just Got My Pay
Susie Cincinnati

Cottonfields (Al Jardine version)
Cool Cool Water (Sunflower version)
Can't Wait Too Long (twofer CD version, or something like it)
Old Man River
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Matt Bielewicz
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 11:31:46 PM »

I like most of William's tracks above, but as already noted, I just don't think most of the tracks on the proposed 'Goofy' side would ever have made it out (that said, I think 'Susie Cincinnati' is a seriously *great* track, one of the best the band put out in the whole of the 1970s, and I like 'Loop De Loop' too... although as with a lot of Beach Boys stuff, I can't help imagining what a properly produced, fully arranged version of the original Sail Plane Song, created with Brian's full participation, would have been like... but we'll never know that, I guess).

I also can't help thinking the strengths in Dennis's writing at the time (his later mid-70s stuff mostly bores me) and Brian's tracks would be better off spread throughout the album than concentrated on their own sides.

But of course, as usual, all of the above is just how *I* see it...!

Regarding The White Album game... I've had various possible line-ups, but this is the counter-factual, alternate-reality scheme that works best for me these days. Instead of The White Album as we know it plus the Revolution/Hey Jude single, the following stuff is released:

ē A cut-down one-disc White Album (details below, each with a side very slightly shorter than what was released on the actual album we got in 1968... so it would definitely fit)

ē plus three EPs (details below).

ē And a few of the tracks go in the 'deep freeze' at Abbey Road.
One of them, 'Revolution 9', John is talked out of releasing on the album by Paul and George Martin (much to Harrison's disgust). However, the following year, John puts it out under the Plastic Ono Band name backed with one of the experimental recordings he made with Yoko at the time. (This is almost what happened in real life in 1969, except John planned to put out 'What's The New Mary Jane' backed with the at-the-time-still-unreleased 'You Know My Name (Look Up The Number)').

ē The remaining 'deep freeze' tracks go unreleased, except on bootlegs and amongst collectors, who all go on endlessly on message boards about how amazing they are, until the Anthology series is released in the 90s ó when everyone realises that they are, actually, pretty underwhelming.

So, here's the single-disc White Album:

Back in the USSR
Dear Prudence
Glass Onion
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Don't Pass Me By
I Will
Happiness Is A Warm Gun

Time: 22:07

Birthday
Mother Nature's Son
Piggies
Julia
Sexy Sadie
Honey Pie
Savoy Truffle
Good Night

Time: 21:36

SINGLES
Revolution EP

Revolution (Loud Distorted Single Version)
Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey
b/w
Yer Blues
While My Guitar Gently Weeps

Hey Jude EP

Hey Jude
b/w
Rocky Raccoon
I'm So Tired
Cry Baby Cry

Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da EP

Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da
Long, Long, Long
b/w
Helter Skelter
The Continuing Story Of Bungalow Bill

RELEASED UNDER THE PLASTIC ONO BAND NAME IN 1969
Revolution 9

DEEP FREEZE (ANTHOLOGY LATER)
Wild Honey Pie
Why Don't We Do It In The Road?
Revolution (Take 2, as heard on the 'real-world' White Album)
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 11:43:57 PM »

Oops, and I should have explained: in this, my own personal custom version of reality, the version of 'Good Night' that closes the single-disc White Album proposed above is not the one on the REAL White Album... but the piano version out-fake that came out on Anthology 3 in the 1990s. I find the White Album version with all its strings and choirs a bit over the top (even Lennon admitted late in life that it was 'possibly over-lush')... but I *love* the simple, stripped-back piano version with Ringo singing along (I often play it to my son to get him to sleep, which is apparently how John originally envisaged it, as a lullaby for Julian). And the Anthology version still closes with a little bit of the original orchestral version of the song, so you still get a 'grand flourish' right at the end to finish the album off...

If you start the piano version of the track with Harrison's '1-2-3-4' count-in, it runs to 2:15. That's how I get the timing I do for Side 2.

OK, er... back to the Beach Boys, then.
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William Bowe
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2020, 11:45:01 PM »

If I was truer to the "goofy side" concept, I'd have subbed SC for Games Two Can Play. But SC is a better song.
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 01:25:05 AM »

Thank God Warner Bros rejected the earlier BB submissions for Sunflower. What was ultimately released was dramatically better than the earlier track lists.

Back when Sunflower was released I had no idea that there had been earlier album submissions with overall weaker track listings. When I first heard Sunflower I simply assumed the BBs had conspired together to release an amazingly great album.

The WB rejections are further evidence that the BBs would have benefited, on numerous occasions over the years, from stronger management.

That being said, the BBs recorded some outstanding music during this time that did not appear on Sunflower, including San Miguel, I just Got My Pay, Lady/Fallin' in Love, and Cottonfields (1970).

Lookin' forward to the forthcoming Feel Flows box set.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 05:28:41 PM by Custom Machine » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2020, 12:00:55 AM »

Thank God Warner Bros rejected the earlier BB submissions for Sunflower. What was ultimately released was dramatically better than the earlier track lists.

Back when Sunflower was released I had no idea that there had been earlier album submissions with overall weaker track listings. When I first heard Sunflower I simply assumed the BBs had conspired together to release an amazingly great album.

The WB rejections are further evidence that the BBs would have benefited, on numerous occasions over the years, from stronger management.

That being said, the BBs recorded some outstanding music during this time that did not appear on Sunflower, including San Miguel, I just Got My Pay, Lady/Fallin' in Love, and Cottonfields (1970).

Lookin' forward to the forthcoming Feel Flows box set.


What I donít understand is why Capital decided to release Live in London instead of Reverberation. Now being honest, the reverberation track list isnít great, but I still think it would have made Capital more money. And we would have gotten another album in 1970.
Terrible management, I agree.
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2020, 12:23:55 PM »

Thank God Warner Bros rejected the earlier BB submissions for Sunflower. What was ultimately released was dramatically better than the earlier track lists.

Back when Sunflower was released I had no idea that there had been earlier album submissions with overall weaker track listings. When I first heard Sunflower I simply assumed the BBs had conspired together to release an amazingly great album.

The WB rejections are further evidence that the BBs would have benefited, on numerous occasions over the years, from stronger management.

That being said, the BBs recorded some outstanding music during this time that did not appear on Sunflower, including San Miguel, I just Got My Pay, Lady/Fallin' in Love, and Cottonfields (1970).

Lookin' forward to the forthcoming Feel Flows box set.


What I donít understand is why Capital decided to release Live in London instead of Reverberation. Now being honest, the reverberation track list isnít great, but I still think it would have made Capital more money. And we would have gotten another album in 1970.
Terrible management, I agree.

And even more oddly, Live In London wasn't even released in the U.S. (until six years later, during their newfound commercial resurgence). So the last Capitol Beach Boys album in their home country was, in fact, 20/20.
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The Nearest Faraway Place
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2020, 12:39:52 PM »

Thank God Warner Bros rejected the earlier BB submissions for Sunflower. What was ultimately released was dramatically better than the earlier track lists.

Back when Sunflower was released I had no idea that there had been earlier album submissions with overall weaker track listings. When I first heard Sunflower I simply assumed the BBs had conspired together to release an amazingly great album.

The WB rejections are further evidence that the BBs would have benefited, on numerous occasions over the years, from stronger management.

That being said, the BBs recorded some outstanding music during this time that did not appear on Sunflower, including San Miguel, I just Got My Pay, Lady/Fallin' in Love, and Cottonfields (1970).

Lookin' forward to the forthcoming Feel Flows box set.


What I donít understand is why Capital decided to release Live in London instead of Reverberation. Now being honest, the reverberation track list isnít great, but I still think it would have made Capital more money. And we would have gotten another album in 1970.
Terrible management, I agree.

And even more oddly, Live In London wasn't even released in the U.S. (until six years later, during their newfound commercial resurgence). So the last Capitol Beach Boys album in their home country was, in fact, 20/20.
That was done because TBBs were way bigger in London in 1970, so it was probably cheeper.
But that still begs the question, why didnít they just released Reverberation as a studio album in London. They couldíve put out a single from it, had a minor hit over there, and gotten some more money.
Also, it later turned out that WB technically did not have the right to reject albums, they just did anyway, and the BBs didnít argue.
WB also rejected Adult Child and Marry Christmas from The Beach Boys.
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2020, 08:20:36 AM »

Sure they were bigger in England at the time, and Capitol/EMI recognized that...but why not release the LP in the States, too? I think the answer is, the label truly believed at that point that the band's career was over, at least here at home, and wanted to be through with them (in other words, it would cost more to manufacture and release the live album in the States than they could recover in sales). They agreed to give up the rights to the studio albums from '66 on, because they really didn't think there would ever be any interest in them again, and they thought only repackaged hits collections of pre-'66 oldies would ever be even remotely bankable.
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 08:59:25 AM »

Thank God Warner Bros rejected the earlier BB submissions for Sunflower. What was ultimately released was dramatically better than the earlier track lists.
 


Agreed completely. And this makes it even more bizarre that Brian tried to put those rejected scraps (from the earlier BB submissions for Sunflower) onto Adult/Child, since they'd *already* been rejected. 
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 09:00:52 AM »

The UK charts for 1970 are interesting. Best Of The Beach Boys re-entered 11 times. In May, Live In London was released and failed to chart. "Cottonfields", however, began its 17 week run. The next album released wasn't Sunflower, but, Greatest Hits, which featured "Cottonfields" and was a big success (#5; 20 consecutive weeks). Then Sunflower, also featuring "Cottonfields", was finally released in late 1970 and ended up only charting for 6 weeks, peaking in its first week at #29.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 09:08:56 AM by B.E. » Logged
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